Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

CriticalGaming

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Masks never did anything but social distancing, lockdowns etc ofcourse do a lot to curtail infection rates. I think at this point there is widespread immunity either from people being vaccinated or having been previously infected. Covid might surge again in fall with colder weather, immunity waning off an new variants. Who knows? Mass gatherings will probably remain tricky.
They found during the pandemic that a lot of infections happening at home. You and your family not wearing masks so someone gets it then everyone gets it. I think that is why Italy was so bad because you have like 4 generations in the same home.

I always had the stance that i dont think the precautions were all that helpful because they were halfassed. The tightest states saw the worst covid cases. Population density is the argument for that but people protesting in the streets never seemed to cause case increases.

They were outdoors of course, no masks, definitely not socially distant, so the conclusion has to be made that you have to have significant exposure to someone for quite a bit of time to pass infection. Like your family at home.

Covid aint the t-virus and if someone so much as brushes by you is enough to get you sick.

Hell even airlines didnt socially distance people. You can claim air filtration all you want but you sit fucking 3 inches from someone not masked, and very few of any infections arose from airtravel.
 

stroopwafel

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They found during the pandemic that a lot of infections happening at home. You and your family not wearing masks so someone gets it then everyone gets it. I think that is why Italy was so bad because you have like 4 generations in the same home.

I always had the stance that i dont think the precautions were all that helpful because they were halfassed. The tightest states saw the worst covid cases. Population density is the argument for that but people protesting in the streets never seemed to cause case increases.

They were outdoors of course, no masks, definitely not socially distant, so the conclusion has to be made that you have to have significant exposure to someone for quite a bit of time to pass infection. Like your family at home.

Covid aint the t-virus and if someone so much as brushes by you is enough to get you sick.

Hell even airlines didnt socially distance people. You can claim air filtration all you want but you sit fucking 3 inches from someone not masked, and very few of any infections arose from airtravel.
What contributes or not contributes to the spread of a virus among a population is based on conjecture, loose observations and inferences since these are impossible things to measure in isolation(like masks) but ofcourse the only thing that objectively really helps is to reduce the amount of 'contact moments' between people. If you live in a household where someone has covid than a mask isn't going to help. Italy was hit hard predominantly because their population is of advanced age. They will put someone of 90 years old on a respirator.

Protestors were mostly young people who were unlikely to get serious symptoms if they caught coronavirus. But if they live in a household with someone who is older or of weaker health then they are the ones who get sick.
 

Agema

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You debate Phoenixmgs ad infinitum about the lack of scientific data that HCQ has any kind of effect but take the existence of long covid at face value eventhough this also lacks any objective clinical markers. You even try to argue that the lack of diagnosis is because of medical bias not because of every diagnostic test coming up negative. Whatever argument suits you I guess.
I think you are grossly overexaggerating what I am saying - although Phoenixmgs does that a lot, too, so I'm used to it.

At a base level of being some form of phenomenon, long covid certainly exists. I'm not claiming long covid is definitely a real, biological condition as opposed to psychosomatic or psychological, but laying out a case why people might be biased to think otherwise.

Firstly, I'm pointing out from a medical end that when you talk about "clinical marker", I would point out that there is a difference between a condition existing, and whether we have a way to recognise it. If the latter does not yet exist, it predisposes many to think the condition does not exist.

Secondly that we have many precedents for conditions being ignored or disbelieved in which we have later come to accept. CFS is one, but I could also cite dyslexia, much depression and anxiety, autism, and a wide range of other conditions. Believing they do not really exist is attractive for some in society. You imagine an employer who has to pay sick leave: sick leave costs them money for no productivity, and such a condition not being recognised means they don't have to pay it. Governments and many voters, too. Can't work? You're just a useless loser and drain on society - the last thing such people want is a medical condition that merits non-workers some degree of societal sympathy and taxation-funded welfare.

And if we just cast these people to the winds, do you think if long covid were firmly established in ten years time as a genuine medical problem that we'd have a societal whip-round and repay them for their suffering and loss of income? Of course we wouldn't.
 
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CriticalGaming

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What contributes or not contributes to the spread of a virus among a population is based on conjecture, loose observations and inferences since these are impossible things to measure in isolation(like masks) but ofcourse the only thing that objectively really helps is to reduce the amount of 'contact moments' between people. If you live in a household where someone has covid than a mask isn't going to help. Italy was hit hard predominantly because their population is of advanced age. They will put someone of 90 years old on a respirator.

Protestors were mostly young people who were unlikely to get serious symptoms if they caught coronavirus. But if they live in a household with someone who is older or of weaker health then they are the ones who get sick.
That's what a lot of this pandemic has been, conjecture. And i think that's why so many people grew quickly frustrated with it. Masks don't work, Masks work, Actually you need to Double Mask or even triple mask. Or actually it doesn't matter at all if you wash your dirty ass hands. Full lockdown, partial lockdown, semi full lockdowns, close businesses but leave some businesses open arbitrarily.

I think the worst thing that happened was the flippy floppy messaging. Which in-part is fair while they tried to figure this fucking thing out. But at the same time the mass public can only react to what they see and I wonder if letting a bit more research into C-19 would have been beneficial before they started locking people down and shutting shit up. Because while it would have given the virus a little more time for free reign, it would also have let medical and government officials more ability to figure out the best course of action. Instead you had a knee-jerk response that didn't work and only upset people because they saw it wasn't working.

If they had come out and said, "Look, we need to totally lockdown for three weeks. Nothing is to be open except emergency services, and limited grocery stores for home delivery only." Then give the public a date like two weeks so they could stock up their homes with food for the lockdown time, and also assure people of a rent/utility payment freeze. I think that would have been cheaper than a shitload of lame stimulus checks, as well as shutting down people's lives for extended periods of time.

Of course that didn't happen so it doesn't really matter. Shit played out the way it did and I'm still not convinced that mask's did shit. I wore the same disposable mask for months, because i only wore it to go into stores when i had to, otherwise i didn't wear it. My grandparents didnt wear them, I don't really think they slowed the spread of shit. I think if you had prolonged contact with someone who got it, then you got it mask be damned.

If anything the mask's sole purpose was symbolic. To make the people feel like they had some power over the virus or faux protection. Which I guess is fair enough, but at some point the mandate had to go away.

Will there be more Covid? Yeah probably. But medical treatments have improved, there is a vaccine, and as time continues the virus will become less and less of a big deal.

Maybe we'll get lucky and this will force employers to finally give people proper sick days. Because work culture pressures people to come to work unless they are literally dying, but when a cough can infect the whole office, maybe they'll actually start being more willing to make sick people stay home.
 

Agema

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Maybe stuff didn't work because people like you, Stroopwafel and Phoenixmgs fucked them up.

I mean, here you all are saying "Nah, I didn't bother taking proper care... hey, I don't think these measures worked". Yeah, funny that. When people don't comply with health measures the health measures don't do so much. In much the same way if you are offered some pills or surgery and decide to not take them, they're not going to work to make you better, either.

And whilst I totally agree health messaging needs to be consistent and coherent, if a bunch of people would rather watch a crank on YouTube for their health guidelines or just decide they can't be arsed, there is an extent to which there's not much the government can really do about it. But if that bunch of people want to go around saying they couldn't be arsed "Yeah, I didn't follow government guidelines because my mate Bob the widget machinist thinks masks don't work", they hardly merit a great deal of respect.

I mean, I've read enough of Stroopwafel's crap the last year to know the only reason he didn't wear a mask is because he didn't want to. He hasn't got a word of useful knowledge on whether they work or not, just a load of self-gratifying tosh to make himself seem better for not bothering. In a way I have a more respect for people who'd just admit they didn't do it just because they didn't want to, rather than those who make shit excuses.
 

stroopwafel

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I mean, I've read enough of Stroopwafel's crap the last year to know the only reason he didn't wear a mask is because he didn't want to. He hasn't got a word of useful knowledge on whether they work or not, just a load of self-gratifying tosh to make himself seem better for not bothering. In a way I have a more respect for people who'd just admit they didn't do it just because they didn't want to, rather than those who make shit excuses.
That's just not true. I've been compliant with every measure that actually helps to contaminate the virus like minimize social contacts, avoid crowds, social distance etc. I've cancelled business appointments, dates etc. Why would I want someone who is vulnerable to the virus get sick? The thing with masks is that even the top virologist here who advises the government on corona policy says there is simply no scientific evidence that masks work and that they detract from the basic measures that actually do work. He caved in only because laymen demanded masks. How many people who are so pedantic about masks are really that careful? On top of that all the plastics of the 3 million(!) disposed masks per day(in the NL alone) is yet another hazard for the environment. Not to mention all the birds that get trapped in the wires. All for no clear benefit.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Maybe stuff didn't work because people like you, Stroopwafel and Phoenixmgs fucked them up.
Yep, I'm sure staying at home all day during lockdowns and not going anywhere I didn't have is the reason. I can not like the protocols while still adhering to them out of the desire to not deal with nonsense. Unless you want to tell me that because I didn't change my mask made a difference, which I would roll my eyes at because surely if my mask was the problem then I would have gotten Covid at some point during the year. I was negative for every test i took, though several tests made my nose bleed.

By the way, did anyone have to do that weird spit test? I had to fill a vial with spit once and that was very strange. As much as I don't like the brain scraping test, at least that one is fast.

Anyway back to the point, it was really bad messaging for governors to blame people going to the hairdresser or out to dinner with random people, when time and time again they got caught traveling and having dinner and getting their hair did. You think it's really people like me, or perhaps the people in power who couldn't tolerate their own rules.

Which leads me to another question. These people get secret briefings about the state of the pandemic constantly. Senators, governors, presidents (ugh), all got much more truthful reports that were ever given to the public. And it has to make you wonder if that is why those people in power so carelessly went about their normal business because the reports THEY got, showed that this virus wasn't nearly as big of a deal as they wanted everyone to think.
 
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Agema

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Anyway back to the point, it was really bad messaging for governors to blame people going to the hairdresser or out to dinner with random people, when time and time again they got caught traveling and having dinner and getting their hair did. You think it's really people like me, or perhaps the people in power who couldn't tolerate their own rules.
Oh, now that I completely agree. They should be metaphorically taken out the back and shot, because nothing erodes public trust than being put under a load of limitations and finding out that public leaders can't be bothered to obey the restrictions they are ordering for everyone else.

Some goon high up in the UK (tan advisor to the PM) went on some bullshit trip and was caught. Rather than give him a massive kicking, the PM decided to say what a lovely bloke he was, a family man just thinking about the welfare of his family, and there would no question of punishment. Of course public compliance severely dropped pretty much immediately after, when they realised the rules didn't apply to the PM and his chums.

Ironically, the advisor ended up kicked out a few months later, and is now embroiled in a massive, raging squabble with the PM where they're both calling each other useless.
 

CriticalGaming

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Ironically, the advisor ended up kicked out a few months later, and is now embroiled in a massive, raging squabble with the PM where they're both calling each other useless.
HAHHAA Isn't Politician just a synonym for useless?
 

stroopwafel

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Oh, now that I completely agree. They should be metaphorically taken out the back and shot, because nothing erodes public trust than being put under a load of limitations and finding out that public leaders can't be bothered to obey the restrictions they are ordering for everyone else.

Some goon high up in the UK (tan advisor to the PM) went on some bullshit trip and was caught. Rather than give him a massive kicking, the PM decided to say what a lovely bloke he was, a family man just thinking about the welfare of his family, and there would no question of punishment. Of course public compliance severely dropped pretty much immediately after, when they realised the rules didn't apply to the PM and his chums.

Ironically, the advisor ended up kicked out a few months later, and is now embroiled in a massive, raging squabble with the PM where they're both calling each other useless.
Dominic Cummings? I read about the scandal where he broke lockdown rules to visit his parents' farm while having covid symptoms. Do you know his parents were actually at the farm or did they just own the estate?
 

Eacaraxe

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Maybe stuff didn't work because people like you, Stroopwafel and Phoenixmgs fucked them up...
Dude, like a total of twelve people frequent this sub-forum. This has been going on for a year and a half, everybody knows what's up.

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Styxhexenhammer666 says we should just have a giant orgy with some Covid positive partners and just get to herd immunity already. Could be fun.

 

Silvanus

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Dominic Cummings? I read about the scandal where he broke lockdown rules to visit his parents' farm while having covid symptoms. Do you know his parents were actually at the farm or did they just own the estate?
His parents were at the farm, but Cummings claims they were in a different building on the grounds for the duration of the stay.

During his stay, of course, we also know he took a drive to Barnard Castle, a local beauty spot. So he was hardly sequestering himself away, and undoubtedly broke the rules a second time. Its this trip that he claims was done to test his eyesight.

Yesterday, in addition, we also had the news that Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, was filmed on CCTV embracing and kissing one of his aides. Which is a triple whammy really: 1) cheating on his wife; 2) breaking covid regulations he himself implemented; and 3) cronyism, since he also gave her two governmental jobs without disclosing any conflict of interest.

To make matters even better, Hancock had previously said that Neil Ferguson (an Imperial College researcher who had been advising rhe government) should definitely resign for... breaking covid regulations to meet his lover.

Of course, once again, the PM has excused him and said he considers the matter closed. Its widely speculated that Johnson is keeping Hancock for now, just so he can fire him after the independent inquiry into the government's handling of the pandemic is published. He's being protected for now to be a fall guy later.
 
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stroopwafel

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His parents were at the farm, but Cummings claims they were in a different building on the grounds for the duration of the stay.

During his stay, of course, we also know he took a drive to Barnard Castle, a local beauty spot. So he was hardly sequestering himself away, and undoubtedly broke the rules a second time. Its this trip that he claims was done to test his eyesight.

Yesterday, in addition, we also had the news that Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, was filmed on CCTV embracing and kissing one of his aides. Which is a triple whammy really: 1) cheating on his wife; 2) breaking covid regulations he himself implemented; and 3) cronyism, since he also gave her two governmental jobs without disclosing any conflict of interest.

To make matters even better, Hancock had previously said that Neil Ferguson (an Imperial College researcher who had been advising rhe government) should definitely resign for... breaking covid regulations to meet his lover.

Of course, once again, the PM has excused him and said he considers the matter closed. Its widely speculated that Johnson is keeping Hancock for now, just so he can fire him after the independent inquiry into the government's handling of the pandemic is published. He's being protected for now to be a fall guy later.
'Lead by example' as they say. It doesn't surprise me to be honest. Usually those with the biggest mouth are only judgemental when it concerns other people but have the most callous disregard for others health or safety when they think no one's watching. I guess there are exceptions but it is mostly this specific kind of person that is attracted to politics, like flies to shit.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The CDC doesn't recommend wearing a mask to PREVENT the flu. Do you not understand that when you look at infections across the entirety of the pandemic and compare them to mask mandates and mask use, you don't have any significant data saying masks do anything? A lot of Asian countries are used to wearing masks when THEY ARE SICK, they don't wear them when they aren't sick (prior to the pandemic). Comparing one country to another just based on masks is a bad comparison because every country did different things so you can't isolate masks as the one thing that worked or didn't work. If masks are all it takes to get to 1/10th or 1/100th of the US's covid response, then why did China have such a draconian lockdown if masks, which they have cultural proclivity to, were all that was needed? New Zealand did the best and they don't have widespread mask use nor do they have a cultural proclivity to masking, it wasn't until November that New Zealand made masks mandatory just on transit.

Look at Czechia that had this video very early on in the pandemic with the tagline "I protect you, you protect me." And Czechia was doing great and removed the mask mandates and then a spike happened. Then they reinstated the mask mandate September 9th. If masks work so well then why are they worse than the US now in deaths per capita? Controlling the spread and smothering it is what is almost always the main link between doing great and having numbers like most countries (like the US). When 20% of your biggest city, New York City, is infected before you did anything, it kinda makes it practically impossible to control the virus afterward and pretty much nobody in America would have been in favor of a China-like lockdown so that was off the table.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Wrong. From Derwand, Scholz and Zelenko (2020):
Straight from the mouth of Dr. Zelenko:

"The main issue here is not HCQ because it's not the main virus inhibitor, it's the zinc."

All queued up as always:


Stop trying to change the burden of proof. It's up to you to show that it does work, and the evidence in so far, on the whole, not only does not support it working but doesn't even look encouraging. I have already pointed out that it is bad medical practice to give people useless drugs, which you just determinedly ignore.
You said "The current state of science is on my side, not yours." That is not true. Inconclusive/limited data means nobody is right. Why doesn't science do a proper trial to figure it out? I'm not trying to change the burden of proof, I'm trying to make the burden of proof CONSISTENT. There's no proof for masks (what this thread is supposed to be about) so why are masks OK to mandate and something like ivermectin is OK to vilify? Ivermectin is extremely safe, there's no reason not to try it until it is proven to be worse than not giving it. Where's the "better safe than sorry" approach in the time of a pandemic when you don't have the luxury of time to wait and figure it out? Why is remdesivir allowed and ivermectin isn't when remdesivir has been solidly shown not to do anything? Also, This is America, we love giving people useless drugs (well, ones that make big pharma millions and billions at least).

Can you at least make the statement that masks aren't need outside? Because as you say, "The current state of science is on my side, not yours." Why don't you go with the science in that regard?

There are known treatments. There have been known treatments for about a year now.

Vitamin D, zinc and other nutrients? Sure, why not, at reasonable doses - they aren't going to do any harm.

"Ionophore" means a drug, and we have evidence that these drugs harm people. I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing you prattle on about them being "safe" (until it's suddenly convenient to point out their potential toxicity). They give people adverse effects, including potentially serious ones. If there's no rationale for use, they are better off not administered except as part of a clinical trial.
People intake a natural ionophore in fruits and vegetables everyday.