Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Aug 13, 2011
6,694
5,011
118
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
They don't line up, that's why masks were never a thing before the pandemic.


I was very much for masks a year ago because of "why not?" and "better safe than sorry" but now I'm like "prove it, it's been a year" and there's no proof. There's low resistance to not masking from public health officials because of the above reasons "why not?" and "better safe than sorry". If you haven't noticed, anyone that questions something that just might even ever-so-slightly lower safety, they get thrown under the bus like the experts that said kids don't need masks (cuz they don't) and Youtube removed their video. The hasn't been any actual studies on masks besides like observational. In the future, we're gonna be looked at as idiots because we had over a year and didn't even do the studies to show whether they worked or not. And all these mask studies people are posting are short-term observational studies that all coincidentally take place during a downturn in cases. When you look at the long-term, it shows places that masked and didn't mask did basically the same.
The virus is highly transmissible via water droplets that come out of your mouth when you breathe, speak or cough.

Masks serve to capture said water droplets (some, not ALL) before they get into the air to be taken in by someone else. (A water droplet is significantly bigger than a virus in case anyone wants to argue the size of a microscopic virus getting through a mask.)

NO masks mean NO protection against said transmission at ALL.

What study do you need to prove some protection is better than none? Because I know a lot of people that wear bullet proof vests; will they stop a .50 cal or a tank shell, probably not, but I'm sure those who wear them will take their chances for the vests' day-to-day utility and, more likely, practicality.

As much as you want someone to "prove" masks work, you can just as easily ask doubters to "prove" masks DON'T work. Because as easily transmissible as COVID is, there are more then enough ways it can get around to assume that masks have helped, but PEOPLE'S lax sanitary and cautionary behaviors have allowed it to. We're at almost 50% vaccination of the populace in the US, and you know what? Cases are rising again because people equate vaccination with immunity, and more and more people are walking around without their masks and without taking basic precautionary measures. Public gatherings have become less and less taboo, nay, encouraged to give people the sense of normalcy the situation simply doesn't merit right now, and "because we're tired of it" doesn't beat a deadly virus that shut down the planet and killed hundreds of thousands more than a year ago.

TL;DR? A single virus getting through a mandated mask is not reason enough to invalidate masks entirely when the same mask likely stopped thousands of other single viruses from getting into the air to propagate within the next unwitting host.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
What study do you need to prove some protection is better than none? Because I know a lot of people that wear bullet proof vests; will they stop a .50 cal or a tank shell, probably not, but I'm sure those who wear them will take their chances for the vests' day-to-day utility and, more likely, practicality.
Clearly there's no evidence that bullet proof vests "work" because some people have died from gunshot wounds while wearing them. And others have died from gunshot wounds made by shooters that were wearing vests! Even worse!
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,744
833
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Masks were totally a thing before the pandemic. They've been a thing for over a century. You're just illiterate.
PUBLIC MASKING. And I posted the article about how there's been no data masks have done anything over decades in the medical community.


The virus is highly transmissible via water droplets that come out of your mouth when you breathe, speak or cough.

Masks serve to capture said water droplets (some, not ALL) before they get into the air to be taken in by someone else. (A water droplet is significantly bigger than a virus in case anyone wants to argue the size of a microscopic virus getting through a mask.)

NO masks mean NO protection against said transmission at ALL.

What study do you need to prove some protection is better than none? Because I know a lot of people that wear bullet proof vests; will they stop a .50 cal or a tank shell, probably not, but I'm sure those who wear them will take their chances for the vests' day-to-day utility and, more likely, practicality.

As much as you want someone to "prove" masks work, you can just as easily ask doubters to "prove" masks DON'T work. Because as easily transmissible as COVID is, there are more then enough ways it can get around to assume that masks have helped, but PEOPLE'S lax sanitary and cautionary behaviors have allowed it to. We're at almost 50% vaccination of the populace in the US, and you know what? Cases are rising again because people equate vaccination with immunity, and more and more people are walking around without their masks and without taking basic precautionary measures. Public gatherings have become less and less taboo, nay, encouraged to give people the sense of normalcy the situation simply doesn't merit right now, and "because we're tired of it" doesn't beat a deadly virus that shut down the planet and killed hundreds of thousands more than a year ago.

TL;DR? A single virus getting through a mandated mask is not reason enough to invalidate masks entirely when the same mask likely stopped thousands of other single viruses from getting into the air to propagate within the next unwitting host.
The virus is AIRBORNE. If masking helped so much, then why were health care workers getting covid so easily? They know how to protect themselves against diseases that spread mainly via droplets. I'm not saying masks have to be 100% effective to use (the vaccines aren't 100% effective, am I trying to invalidate vaccines?), where's the data that they are merely 10% effective? Kids went to school in Florida with no mask mandates and less than 1% of students got covid at school per CDC.

America is a huge ass country, you're gonna have different immunity levels (from both natural and vaccinations) in different parts of the country. Just look at the CNN map of cases per county and look at the vast majority of counties that have less than 10 new cases per 100K. Why would going out in public be a so "dangerous" in most of America? Just because cases are up in America doesn't mean your community is any more dangerous. What do cases per 100K have to be at to be back to normal? I haven't worn a mask in at least a month now in Cook county (Chicago's county), Lake county Indiana (next to Cook), and in Marion county Indiana (Indianapolis' county). Looking at the CNN map I linked below, why should I feel the need to mask or avoid public gatherings in those places? The chances of dying in a car crash driving to said gathering is far far far more likely than dying of covid in these areas. It was more dangerous for me to see Michael Jordan play in the middle of winter in the 90s over the flu than it is right now to see a game over covid in my area. Did we wear masks then? Did my parents consider not letting me go to a Bulls game back then because it was too dangerous? Hell no to both of those questions. I really don't understand why people's level of acceptable risk has changed so much.


Clearly there's no evidence that bullet proof vests "work" because some people have died from gunshot wounds while wearing them. And others have died from gunshot wounds made by shooters that were wearing vests! Even worse!
Really shit analogy because I'd obviously be against vaccines then because they aren't 100% effective. Why is anyone thinking I need masks to be 100% effective to acknowledge they do something? I'm merely asking for something that says masks are just 10% or even 5% effective, where's that data that shows mask do just SOMETHING? And I'm not talking about cherry-picked observational studies that were done during a normal downward trend in cases. I want something that shows all these places that didn't mask did noticeably worse than places that did mask (over a large portion of the pandemic, through the ups and downs). Because when you do that, the mask data becomes pretty shit, there's no consistent data showing masks work against the flu either over decades and decades. If masks were a drug, they wouldn't be approved for covid. Here's a story of someone leaving Sweden because they didn't feel safe because no one wore masks there and they went to Portugal and guess what? Portugal did worse than Sweden in deaths per capita and Sweden was the safer country to be in out of the two.
 
Last edited:

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
2,351
1,887
118
Country
4
The virus is AIRBORNE. If masking helped so much, then why were health care workers getting covid so easily? They know how to protect themselves against diseases that spread mainly via droplets. I'm not saying masks have to be 100% effective to use (the vaccines aren't 100% effective, am I trying to invalidate vaccines?), where's the data that they are merely 10% effective?
I don't think you'll accept any evidence at all, but here....


Results
Noncontact transmission was found in 66.7% (10/15) of exposed naive hamsters. Surgical mask partition for challenged index or naive hamsters significantly reduced transmission to 25% (6/24, P = .018). Surgical mask partition for challenged index hamsters significantly reduced transmission to only 16.7% (2/12, P = .019) of exposed naive hamsters. Unlike the severe manifestations of challenged hamsters, infected naive hamsters had lower clinical scores, milder histopathological changes, and lower viral nucleocapsid antigen expression in respiratory tract tissues.
Conclusions
SARS-CoV-2 could be transmitted by respiratory droplets or airborne droplet nuclei which could be reduced by surgical mask partition in the hamster model. This is the first in vivo experimental evidence to support the possible benefit of surgical mask in prevention of COVID-19 transmission, especially when masks were worn by infected individuals.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
Really shit analogy because I'd obviously be against vaccines then because they aren't 100% effective. Why is anyone thinking I need masks to be 100% effective to acknowledge they do something? I'm merely asking for something that says masks are just 10% or even 5% effective, where's that data that shows mask do just SOMETHING? And I'm not talking about cherry-picked observational studies that were done during a normal downward trend in cases. I want something that shows all these places that didn't mask did noticeably worse than places that did mask (over a large portion of the pandemic, through the ups and downs). Because when you do that, the mask data becomes pretty shit, there's no consistent data showing masks work against the flu either over decades and decades. If masks were a drug, they wouldn't be approved for covid. Here's a story of someone leaving Sweden because they didn't feel safe because no one wore masks there and they went to Portugal and guess what? Portugal did worse than Sweden in deaths per capita and Sweden was the safer country to be in out of the two.
If you compare people who wear bullet proof vests to people who don't wear bullet proof vests, which population do you think is more likely to die of a gunshot wound? Keep in mind, people who wear bullet proof vests tend to be more likely to get shot at in the first place. But that difference in probability is variable, so you could have studies that say that bullet proof vests make you more likely to get COVID I mean get shot and die and studies that say the opposite.

KIND OF LIKE HOW COMPARISONS ON DISEASE TRANSMISSION AND MASK MANDATES IN DIFFERENT SOCIETIES ARE PLAGUED BY LURKING VARIABLES, SUCH AS COMPLIANCE, TIMING, POPULATION DENSITY, RANDOM SHIT LIKE TYPHOID MARY DECIDING OR NOT DECIDING TO GET ON A PLANE AND SO ON.

It is asinine to reject the physical evidence on what masks do to droplets coming from the mouth of the mask wearer (that had been supplied to you weeks ago) and to demand instead the kind of idiotic population level comparisons that you cannot be dissuaded from insisting on. Stupefyingly asinine.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,273
6,551
118
I was very much for masks a year ago because of "why not?" and "better safe than sorry" but now I'm like "prove it, it's been a year" and there's no proof. There's low resistance to not masking from public health officials scientists
Fixed that for you.

As has been said, there's not necessarily anything wrong with observational data. Especially when there's enough of it, and when it's supported by significant other evidence.

There's no particular controversy about the lack of randomised controlled trials, and its not idiocy. It's basically just that it's unethical to conduct that sort of experiment in the middle of a pandemic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Jul 16, 2013
3,031
357
88
I don't think you'll accept any evidence at all, but here....


Results
Noncontact transmission was found in 66.7% (10/15) of exposed naive hamsters. Surgical mask partition for challenged index or naive hamsters significantly reduced transmission to 25% (6/24, P = .018). Surgical mask partition for challenged index hamsters significantly reduced transmission to only 16.7% (2/12, P = .019) of exposed naive hamsters. Unlike the severe manifestations of challenged hamsters, infected naive hamsters had lower clinical scores, milder histopathological changes, and lower viral nucleocapsid antigen expression in respiratory tract tissues.
Conclusions
SARS-CoV-2 could be transmitted by respiratory droplets or airborne droplet nuclei which could be reduced by surgical mask partition in the hamster model. This is the first in vivo experimental evidence to support the possible benefit of surgical mask in prevention of COVID-19 transmission, especially when masks were worn by infected individuals.
I don't think you'll accept any evidence at all, but here....


Results
Noncontact transmission was found in 66.7% (10/15) of exposed naive hamsters. Surgical mask partition for challenged index or naive hamsters significantly reduced transmission to 25% (6/24, P = .018). Surgical mask partition for challenged index hamsters significantly reduced transmission to only 16.7% (2/12, P = .019) of exposed naive hamsters. Unlike the severe manifestations of challenged hamsters, infected naive hamsters had lower clinical scores, milder histopathological changes, and lower viral nucleocapsid antigen expression in respiratory tract tissues.
Conclusions
SARS-CoV-2 could be transmitted by respiratory droplets or airborne droplet nuclei which could be reduced by surgical mask partition in the hamster model. This is the first in vivo experimental evidence to support the possible benefit of surgical mask in prevention of COVID-19 transmission, especially when masks were worn by infected individuals.
Even this study admits that masks are pretty much pointless in settings where they could make a difference like poorly ventilated, crowded places. Someone has to literally cough through their mask on your mask or be in otherwise really close contact for masks to maybe have any kind of effect.

'Although we could not differentiate whether transmission occurred by respiratory droplets or airborne aerosols in this study, both types of noncontact transmission might have happened because surgical masks are most efficient in filtering out large respiratory droplets of >10 µm but not the airborne aerosol particles of <5 µm.''

And this is in the best case scenario of lab settings where surgical masks are replaced every few hours. Compare that to the dirty handkerchief most people are carrying around.

That large droplets are the primary source of infection also isn't entirely up to date anymore.

'''Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) is believed to be mostly transmitted by medium- to large-sized respiratory droplets, although airborne transmission may be possible in healthcare settings involving aerosol-generating procedures.''

This is not even accurate as tiny droplets are released even when sneezing and is an important route of transmission. The article make it sound like it's only a risk for doctors/nurses when removing the intubation tube of an ICU covid patient or something when this isn't the case.

'' During sneezing or coughing, a "droplet spray" of virus-laden airway fluid, usually more than 5 μm in diameter, directly affects a susceptible person. Alternatively, a susceptible individual can inhale microscopic particles and aerosol evaporated from the remaining solid components of the respiratory aerosol, which are droplets tiny enough (<5 μm) to stay airborne for hours. ''


So masks aren't an alternative for social distancing and are ineffective against microscopic droplets so what is the point?

I am not wearing a mask after getting vaccinated with Pfizer. My state of Ohio also has low average case numbers. Idiots not getting vaccinated in Florida is not my problem.
If everyone who could got vaccinated we could leave the pandemic behind. There might be some people who can't get vaxxed b/c of medical reasons but in general the immunization of the populace would be so high that the virus would be all but gone. That is why I took the vaccine as well eventhough I was never really concerned about my own health. I don't think society as a whole should tailor to the whims of a group of people who willingly don't get vaxxed. If they want the 'freedom' to not take the vaccine then the consequence of that freedom should also be for their own account.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,273
6,551
118
So masks aren't an alternative for social distancing and are ineffective against microscopic droplets so what is the point?
They are not "ineffective" against microscopic droplets, they are "less effective".

For instance, put a towel under a tap. There are gaps in the weave of the towel that water can get through. But a lot of that water does indeed get "stuck" on the towel, hence it becoming wet: it's not like every particle small enough gets through. And so too it is with masks. Your average cheapy mask has gaps around the edges anyway of course which is why certain medical grade masks are better: but it still catches a great deal of the droplets from going in and coming out of your lungs anyway.

But the point is really that if the mask absorbs (for instance) 70% of virus particles, then it's going to greatly reduce the amount of virus that infected people spray into the atmosphere in the first place, and then provide an additional benefit for the non-infected by blocking at least some of the virus in the atmosphere that they breathe in. Particularly in an indoor environment with low ventilation, virus can also hang around for a length of time even after the infected have left the area. Consequently, the less virus that the infected spew into it in he first place the better. Imagine a shop that 100 people an hour visit, and imagine reducing the amount of virus expelled into the air of that shop reduced 70% because they all wore masks. That's quite a lot. Now add you using protection yourself, so you are less likely to breathe in virus as well, it's even better. Sure, if you spend six hours in that shop and spend that time talking to people at a distance of 50cm, your mask is then probably not much use. Many healthcare personnel might be quite blase on this sort of basis, because if they're working a ward eight hours a day full of covid patients breathing out virus, then they are almost certainly going to catch it sooner or later, even with many better quality respirators.

Thus why compliance is important. When you start to use questions like "What is the point?", I would suggest to you an analogy of voting. What is the point of voting for a party if it won't get elected? Okay... but it is also true that if enough people vote for it, it gets elected: and lots of people not voting for a party because they don't think it will be elected guarantees that party not being elected.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,744
833
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
And did masking work during the Spanish flu? Because according to history, they failed. It's not like we have some historical evidence of masks working during a previous pandemic and just totally ignored that for like 100 years.


I don't think you'll accept any evidence at all, but here....


Results
Noncontact transmission was found in 66.7% (10/15) of exposed naive hamsters. Surgical mask partition for challenged index or naive hamsters significantly reduced transmission to 25% (6/24, P = .018). Surgical mask partition for challenged index hamsters significantly reduced transmission to only 16.7% (2/12, P = .019) of exposed naive hamsters. Unlike the severe manifestations of challenged hamsters, infected naive hamsters had lower clinical scores, milder histopathological changes, and lower viral nucleocapsid antigen expression in respiratory tract tissues.
Conclusions
SARS-CoV-2 could be transmitted by respiratory droplets or airborne droplet nuclei which could be reduced by surgical mask partition in the hamster model. This is the first in vivo experimental evidence to support the possible benefit of surgical mask in prevention of COVID-19 transmission, especially when masks were worn by infected individuals.
A hamster study is the best proof we have that masks work? And those results could be due to a hamster catching covid early in the uninfected group and thus spreading to the other uninfected hamsters. And that's exactly what happened in the study, which may be due to no mask or just plain luck. Also, it's an animal study and what happens in animals doesn't translate to humans a lot of the time. A lot of drugs that show effectiveness in animals don't work in humans and a lot of drugs that don't show effectiveness in animals end up working in humans.

From the study:
However, the controversies of whether there is transmission by respiratory droplets or airborne droplet nuclei, and whether the wearing of surgical mask by the virus shedder or by the susceptible individual is useful for the prevention of transmission, are still unsettled.

If masks work, we'd surely have a load of data over a year now showing Place_A that masked did better than Place_B that didn't mask and we'd have consistent results showing all the places that masked did significantly better than all the places that didn't mask. There's far more correlational data that's far more consistent showing vitamin D helps yet where's all the "take vitamin D" messaging and virtue signaling we have for masks? Vitamin D is the same logic as masks; "why not? it does no harm" and "better safe than sorry" and it's cheaper than masks to boot.

Here's one of the many studies on the possibility of vitamin D helping. And this study was on humans vs animals and people in nursing homes that are at highest risk.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,744
833
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
If you compare people who wear bullet proof vests to people who don't wear bullet proof vests, which population do you think is more likely to die of a gunshot wound? Keep in mind, people who wear bullet proof vests tend to be more likely to get shot at in the first place. But that difference in probability is variable, so you could have studies that say that bullet proof vests make you more likely to get COVID I mean get shot and die and studies that say the opposite.

KIND OF LIKE HOW COMPARISONS ON DISEASE TRANSMISSION AND MASK MANDATES IN DIFFERENT SOCIETIES ARE PLAGUED BY LURKING VARIABLES, SUCH AS COMPLIANCE, TIMING, POPULATION DENSITY, RANDOM SHIT LIKE TYPHOID MARY DECIDING OR NOT DECIDING TO GET ON A PLANE AND SO ON.

It is asinine to reject the physical evidence on what masks do to droplets coming from the mouth of the mask wearer (that had been supplied to you weeks ago) and to demand instead the kind of idiotic population level comparisons that you cannot be dissuaded from insisting on. Stupefyingly asinine.
There's so many variables, you can't point to any one thing working. You can't point to lockdowns or masks working. Indiana was far less restrictive than Illinois and both states did basically the same. UK put far more measures in place than the US and the UK did worse. You have Florida that did average with the 2nd highest elderly population and scoffed at most restrictions. The only thing that is really consistent is that the more widespread the virus was in your country/area, the worst it did. The places that did well all stopped the virus from getting widespread in the first place. Really, the only country that breaks that pattern is Japan and we don't know why, I hardly doubt that it's because they masked or they just masked better than everyone else. Japan should be hardcore studied to figured why they did so well without controlling the spread of the virus.

MECHANISTIC SCIENCE does not prove something works in the real world. Just think of all the drugs that would work if all we need was it has the mechanisms to work (just ask Agema on that). Also, COVID IS AIRBORNE, droplet precautions and airborne precautions are different for obvious reasons. Also, masks may help in short encounters with people and not work when you're with someone for hours at a time (which is who you usually get sick from). And short encounters are very low risk already or else you'd get the flu / head cold from going to the grocery all the time then and you don't. Thinking the mask is gonna hold up in those situations is just asking way too much from the mask.

Fixed that for you.

As has been said, there's not necessarily anything wrong with observational data. Especially when there's enough of it, and when it's supported by significant other evidence.

There's no particular controversy about the lack of randomised controlled trials, and its not idiocy. It's basically just that it's unethical to conduct that sort of experiment in the middle of a pandemic.
There's more evidence for vitamin d than for masks. If you're for masks, then why aren't you for vitamin d?

Or you could've done studies in places that had masks and no masks like say schools or places of work. I'm sure there's plenty of schools or comparable places of work across the world that masked and didn't masked and you can compare covid transmissions. Sweden didn't mask. Why not compare workers at Swedish grocery stores vs another country's grocery stores that did mask and see the transmission rates between the 2 when community transmission in both places was very similar? There's no ethical issue in doing that and there was plenty of opportunity to do these kinds of studies that would actually strongly point in one direction. But what we got is some stylist study in Missouri that was 100% pointless and it's put into a paper with other pointless studies to show that masks work. That's Missouri study is more pointless with worse methodology than the most poorly done ivermectin study. Remember your saying to me "garbage in, garbage out"?
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,515
3,716
118
And did masking work during the Spanish flu? Because according to history, they failed.
Funnily enough, there were mask mandates and when people bitched about them enough saying it wasn't worth it, they lifted the mandates and it immediately started spiking.



🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

It's not like we have some historical evidence of masks working during a previous pandemic and just totally ignored that for like 100 years.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
2,652
2,589
118
Country
United States
Meanwhile, several counties in my state of California might be going back to mandating masks. Maybe because we're getting a spike in cases after no longer mandating masks, and a pretty significant spike at that. Specifically, the four counties that are potentially going to go back to mask mandates reported a 30-70% increase in COVID cases over the last week, with a combined total of 5,531 new cases and 367 hospitalizations.

Surely, just a coincidence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seanchaidh

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,273
6,551
118
MECHANISTIC SCIENCE does not prove something works in the real world. Just think of all the drugs that would work if all we need was it has the mechanisms to work (just ask Agema on that).
Mechanism plus substantial supporting real world evidence, though, is good enough.

Imagine a gang member shoots a rival in a shopping mall, in front of 50 witnesses. These witnesses are broadly consistent in their retelling of events. The police investigate the suspect's house, find a gun with his fingerprints, that has been recently fired, and the bullet that killed the victim is a match for that gun. You would be telling us the 50 witnesses are merely "observational data" and should be discounted and that the forensics from the gun don't actually prove he fired the fatal bullet, so there's no case here, folks. I think most people would draw a different conclusion, and they'd be very reasonable to.

There's more evidence for vitamin d than for masks. If you're for masks, then why aren't you for vitamin d?
Repeating something doesn't make it true.

Or you could've done studies in places that had masks and no masks like say schools or places of work...
You mean do the sorts of studies that they already have and which you dismiss as worthlessly "observational" when they turn out data you don't like?

I can assure you, there is nothing you will be able to think of that the entire world's researchers won't have thought of. If they haven't done it, it's because it's not been feasible for them to do.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
And did masking work during the Spanish flu? Because according to history, they failed. It's not like we have some historical evidence of masks working during a previous pandemic and just totally ignored that for like 100 years.
What did I just say about making shit up? And that wasn't your point, you're moving the goalpost. You said that public masking wasn't a thing during the 1918 pandemic. Admit you fucking made that up.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,744
833
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Meanwhile, several counties in my state of California might be going back to mandating masks. Maybe because we're getting a spike in cases after no longer mandating masks, and a pretty significant spike at that. Specifically, the four counties that are potentially going to go back to mask mandates reported a 30-70% increase in COVID cases over the last week, with a combined total of 5,531 new cases and 367 hospitalizations.

Surely, just a coincidence.
Surely, just a coincidence that Florida did better than New York without mask mandates.


Funnily enough, there were mask mandates and when people bitched about them enough saying it wasn't worth it, they lifted the mandates and it immediately started spiking.



🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔




🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,744
833
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
it pretty much is the closest you'll ever get to proving that something works in the real world, as correlation is not causation but a mechanism is.
Again, do you not understand how many drugs fail every year that have mechanisms to work?

Mechanism plus substantial supporting real world evidence, though, is good enough.

Imagine a gang member shoots a rival in a shopping mall, in front of 50 witnesses. These witnesses are broadly consistent in their retelling of events. The police investigate the suspect's house, find a gun with his fingerprints, that has been recently fired, and the bullet that killed the victim is a match for that gun. You would be telling us the 50 witnesses are merely "observational data" and should be discounted and that the forensics from the gun don't actually prove he fired the fatal bullet, so there's no case here, folks. I think most people would draw a different conclusion, and they'd be very reasonable to.

You mean do the sorts of studies that they already have and which you dismiss as worthlessly "observational" when they turn out data you don't like?

I can assure you, there is nothing you will be able to think of that the entire world's researchers won't have thought of. If they haven't done it, it's because it's not been feasible for them to do.
WHERE'S THE REAL WORLD EVIDENCE FOR MASKS?

None of the studies I've seen on masks (or that were posted here) are anything along the lines of the studies I outlined. Where's a comparison of a masked school vs unmasked school? Where's a comparison of say grocery store workers that masked vs unmasked grocery store workers? All we have is looking at infection numbers after a mandate was put in place (which was after the US locked down and cases were already going down) and showed cases dropped, no fucking shit, they were already dropping. When you look across the entire pandemic, the mask data turns to shit and you can make graphs of a place that masked vs a place that didn't without labeling the lines and you can't even accurately pick the line of the place that masked because the infection numbers are basically the same.

Repeating something doesn't make it true.
It is true, there's far more data for vitamin d and for literally the same reasons; "better safe than sorry" and it's cheaper than masks. Can you even give me something as good as that French nursing home study for masking? I haven't seen anything even that good for masks and it's not anything that good on it's own.

What did I just say about making shit up? And that wasn't your point, you're moving the goalpost. You said that public masking wasn't a thing during the 1918 pandemic. Admit you fucking made that up.
If something doesn't work, you don't keep doing it.