Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

The Rogue Wolf

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Just force people to get vaccinated already, you idiots.
The problem is that there is a frighteningly large contingent of idiots in this country who would start shooting at government employees over that. And while "get a shot or get shot" may have a certain appeal, I'd rather not put medical professionals in the crosshairs like that.
 

Gergar12

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The problem is that there is a frighteningly large contingent of idiots in this country who would start shooting at government employees over that. And while "get a shot or get shot" may have a certain appeal, I'd rather not put medical professionals in the crosshairs like that.
Then they get fired from their job, or don't get to travel, or enter restaurants, or enter superstores.
 

Gergar12

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The cowards at the CDC refuse to mandate vaccines along with the other coward Biden. You idiots, every person who isn't vaccinated is a Delta plus or Lambda mutation factory. This is so stupid. Because of Biden, we are likely to see vaccine-resistant variants, and then we have to lockdown again.

Funny enough I was mad I had to wear a mask because Ron Desantis and Ted Cruz are idiots, now I am mad, and scared about new variants.

Meanwhile, China is over there, the only fucking country who got this under control ironically enough, laughing at us.

Also, businesses who only NOW mandate vaccines are double idiots, had they taken the initiative since they are the only fuckers in American who can do so, and forced their employees, and customers to take the vaccine we could be done with this, but nope I don't want to offend anyone.

This country is full of morons!
 

Agema

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The cowards at the CDC refuse to mandate vaccines along with the other coward Biden. You idiots, every person who isn't vaccinated is a Delta plus or Lambda mutation factory. This is so stupid. Because of Biden, we are likely to see vaccine-resistant variants, and then we have to lockdown again.
To be fair, I suspect forcing everyone to have vaccines is way outside the power of the CDC, and I suspect it's also to an extent outside Biden's power too.

I strongly suspect literally no-one can be legally compelled to have a vaccine. The government could, however, pass laws limiting what unvaccinated people could do to try to make it so inconvenient for unvaccinated people to go about their lives that they would get vaccinated. However, I also think the kickback they'd get from this would be extraordinarily politically painful.

Meanwhile, China is over there, the only fucking country who got this under control ironically enough, laughing at us.
Maybe. I think they've lied a lot about how bad it was: I suspect it was around ten times worse than their official figures. They're also currently struggling with a major outbreak (delta, apparently).
 

Gergar12

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To be fair, I suspect forcing everyone to have vaccines is way outside the power of the CDC, and I suspect it's also to an extent outside Biden's power too.

I strongly suspect literally no-one can be legally compelled to have a vaccine. The government could, however, pass laws limiting what unvaccinated people could do to try to make it so inconvenient for unvaccinated people to go about their lives that they would get vaccinated. However, I also think the kickback they'd get from this would be extraordinarily politically painful.



Maybe. I think they've lied a lot about how bad it was: I suspect it was around ten times worse than their official figures. They're also currently struggling with a major outbreak (delta, apparently).
Stop being afraid of Republicans. I am not, and someone with a police state and military shouldn't either.
 

Buyetyen

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Stop being afraid of Republicans. I am not, and someone with a police state and military shouldn't either.
Stop shouting and take a moment to assess the realpolitik involved. It is a brute fact of reality that you have to deal with. How would telling Rand Paul to fuck himself with broken glass enable the CDC to exercise the power to enforce mandatory vaccinations? And where are they getting this power from in the first place?
 

tstorm823

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If the CDC mandated that everyone get a vaccine or else some punishment awaits them, I guarantee many people would become less likely to get vaccinated. Public policy is a lot more complicated than deciding what you want to happen and telling everyone to do it.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Well you've said that masks weren't a thing before the pandemic, which you were wrong about. Then changed it to public masking, which you were wrong about. So the fact you don't know history literally at all isn't really surprising.





Learn to read, or else nobody will ever take you seriously.
So you gonna admit masks didn't work during the Spanish flu when you said they did? I read your claim that masks lowered infection rates during the Spanish flu and then rates went up after people stopped wearing masks. Where'd you get that tidbit of information from?

I'm sorry if I missed a small period that where people wore masks for a year or so and it never happened again until now since there's no proof that they do anything and there's still no proof.


Nothing anywhere near as simple to understand, straightforward, and easy to observe as the effect of masks on the transmission of fluids in your mouth and nose to the surrounding environment. Nothing like arcane pharmacological speculations not panning out when tested in human subjects.



SNEEZE INTO ONE AND FIND OUT



Do you have any idea the population density of New York City compared to others? Differences in weather conditions? Amount of travel into and out of each state from all over the world? Scandals about the treatment of nursing home patients? Other issues or differences in policy affecting one or the other state but not both?

How many variables are lurking to spoil just such a state versus state comparison? Think, Phoenixmgs, think!
COVID IS AIRBORNE, it's not spread (mainly) through droplets. Normal masks don't work for airborne diseases. You're still breathing the air in the room that infectious people (masked or not) are filling up with viral particles.

Who sneezes on people? You guys act like people normally sneeze and cough on people, where does this happen? You didn't catch the flu because of someone sneezing and you ain't catching covid from someone sneezing.

Why don't you THINK about all the rather poor studies that show masks lowered transmission (in times when case numbers were already dropping), ever THINK about all the other factors that were probably far more impactful than masking? Florida isn't as population dense but it also has far more elderly population (high risk obviously) than New York. There's many factors to consider. That's literally one of my points so how do you know masks have done anything? Maybe masks work like 2% or 5% in reducing infections as they definitely don't yield big returns; however, there's literally no data showing that masks do anything for people that have immunity.
 

Phoenixmgs

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No, there isn't. Well, there might be "more data" in total, it's just that so much of it is inconclusive or negative. It might be more precise to say that the scientific case is less clear and less positive than it is for masks.

1) The most basic problem is that lower vitamin D levels tend to be caused by large range of conditions. Several of those conditions also increase risk of severe reactions to covid. So there's an intrinsic problem that studies reporting large numbers of people with low vitamin D levels in hospital with covid are confounded by the fact that they're actually made vulnerable to covid by their underlying health condition or age, not low vitamin D; or even that their vitamin D levels are just temporarily lower than normal because they are ill.

2) Agencies and studies are hopelessly mixed about what low vitamin D levels actually are - there is no consistency in what "deficiency" or "sufficiency" is. Underpinning this lack of consistency is the fact that there isn't good evidence for when low vitamin D becomes problematic, itself partly due to that there may be wide variability between individuals anyway.

3) Too many of these studies are low quality.

4) Enough studies by now exist for us to know that giving covid-19 patients loads of vitamin D is ineffective (or very low effectiveness) at preventing covid symptoms becoming more severe.

* * *

I think you must believe that health agencies are declining to push vitamin D like crazy just because of a perverse refusal to accept what you think is a clear scientific argument. Why would they tell everyone to mask up but not cram vitamin D down their throats if vitamin D was better than masks? Who seriously believes that health bodies and governments - that want people healthy, the health services not overburdened and an economy back to work - would not grasp anything so cheap, simple and obvious as a vitamin supplement and hammer it for all its worth if it worked? Or do you just believe that they and their scientific / medical recommendation panels are all a bunch of know-nothing idiots?

But I think from the last 18 months you have demonstrated substantial elements of conspiracy theory-like thinking, distrust of establishment, wishful thinking and a vast overestimation of your own capabilities to assess scientific information. So yes, I think you are exactly the sort of person to believe stuff like that.
Show me at least one mask study just as good as that vitamin d study in a nursing home in France. Cuz I haven't seen any mask study that shows data that's even close to that good and that study alone isn't anything amazing by any means. There's far less variables in that France vitamin d study than any mask study I've seen because they all focus on masks and infection numbers, and the infection numbers are affected by so many more variables it ain't even funny. If you're gonna say vitamin d studies are low quality, mask studies are even lower quality. And when you look at the mask data over prolonged periods, the data goes to shit and any minor consistency that may have been there is gone.

4) What studies show vitamin D levels aren't consistent with covid outcomes? And by the way giving me some study where they gave people loads of D3 after infection shows nothing because it takes like a week for the body to convert that to the active form of vitamin D. I'm guessing that's what you're gonna show me. Also, you can't virtue signal vitamin D but masks you can.
 

Phoenixmgs

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https://apnews.com/article/business...rus-pandemic-7ca97f0d685ab25559cf9b51cfc077eb
A day after it recorded the most new daily cases since the start of the pandemic, Florida on Sunday broke a previous record for current hospitalizations set more than a year ago before vaccines were available.
...


Florida is now leading the nation in per capita hospitalizations for COVID-19, as hospitals around the state report having to put emergency room visitors in beds in hallways and others document a noticeable drop in the age of patients.

In the past week, Florida has averaged 1,525 adult hospitalizations a day, and 35 daily pediatric hospitalizations. Both are the highest per capita rate in the nation, according to Jason Salemi, an associate professor of epidemiology at the University of South Florida.
It is kinda like Florida's "winter" in a sense where it's too hot to be outside and most people are inside. Same thing happened last year in the South during the summer. Also, why not look at the big picture and how New York did worse? Why don't I just get in a time machine and tell you have much worse New York was last March than Florida? Lastly, now that vaccinations are available to anyone for months and months now, it's kinda hard to fault a state's leadership for doing poor with covid now because it is the people that are choosing not to basically get the cure that is readily available.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I am watching the White House briefing on it right now. All of this incrementalism, and political cowardice. Just force people to get vaccinated already, you idiots. It's the most straightforward easily, nonwonky thing to do. Keep it simple stupid, don't complicate this, you need vaccines for this, but you don't need it here, mask here, but not here.
Why force people to get vaccinated when at least a third to half the country doesn't need the vaccine? Doctors have told their patients that they don't need the vaccine because they had covid, why are you gonna mandate something doctors are telling their patients not to get and that is based off real science? You know that vaccines just aim to recreate natural immunity, right? It's also not like these vaccine cards are something like a driver's license or something, you can easily create fake ones. You push against people and they are going to push back harder, it's like telling a kid they can't have candy, they are only gonna want it more. There's better ways of getting the vaccination numbers up. For one, I don't get why the J&J vaccine isn't heavily pushed as it's so much more convenient. I wasn't about to waste my time for 2 appointments and probable side effects so I got the one and done shot and not a single side effect besides some minor chills at night while everyone else I know that got the mRNA shots were out for a day or 2 each shot; one guy at work got a shot in the morning and had to leave at lunch due to the shot.

The cowards at the CDC refuse to mandate vaccines along with the other coward Biden. You idiots, every person who isn't vaccinated is a Delta plus or Lambda mutation factory. This is so stupid. Because of Biden, we are likely to see vaccine-resistant variants, and then we have to lockdown again.

Funny enough I was mad I had to wear a mask because Ron Desantis and Ted Cruz are idiots, now I am mad, and scared about new variants.

Meanwhile, China is over there, the only fucking country who got this under control ironically enough, laughing at us.

Also, businesses who only NOW mandate vaccines are double idiots, had they taken the initiative since they are the only fuckers in American who can do so, and forced their employees, and customers to take the vaccine we could be done with this, but nope I don't want to offend anyone.

This country is full of morons!
Man, you read too much lefty news, so how's Cuomo doing right now (Biden even said he should resign) vs DeSantis (who listened to experts and made it that you can't release infected elderly to nursing homes which was basic common sense really and kept schools open)? Just walk around New York City that has so many closed businesses who also did far worse economically than Florida but yeah DeSantis is an idiot because CNN said so... NYC has completely enclosed "outdoor" dining shacks in the middle of the street so people can go to restaurants with less air ventilation than the actual damn restaurant, they're really doing a bang up job there.

THERE ARE NOT GONNA BE ANY VACCINE RESISTANT VARIANTS, it's basically a scientific impossibility. And why are unvaccinated Americans the cause of these variants? If we could keep using the names of where the variants came from as their names instead of asinine Delta and Lambda bullshit, they didn't come from America and they came from places with low vaccination rates that still make up the vast majority of places on earth like India and Peru (where these variants came from). America only makes up about 4% of the worlds population and we have a pretty high vaccination rate (and natural immunity rate) in comparison to much of the world, America is not very likely to be the breeding ground for new variants.
 

crimson5pheonix

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So you gonna admit masks didn't work during the Spanish flu when you said they did?
No, because if you could read and knew history, you'd have already known what was going on. I'm not going to hold your hand anymore on this, anybody can see the sequence of events and see how masks were effective, when they were subverted, when they were discarded, and when the waves of the flu hit.

I'm sorry if I missed a small period that where people wore masks for a year or so and it never happened again until now since there's no proof that they do anything and there's still no proof.
That's a long way to say "I'm wrong" without actually saying the crucial part that you're literally talking out your ass. This should be the point where you stop and reflect on your argument that you might not know what's going on.
 

bluegate

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You idiots, every person who isn't vaccinated is a Delta plus or Lambda mutation factory.
What is it with America and fucking over languages?

What ever happened to the Epsilon, Zeta, Eta, Theta, Iota and Kappa variants?
 

Kwak

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What is it with America and fucking over languages?

What ever happened to the Epsilon, Zeta, Eta, Theta, Iota and Kappa variants?
They didn't mutate in ways that increased their reproductive success, comparatively.
And it's the world health organisation that names the variants.
 
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Agema

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COVID IS AIRBORNE, it's not spread (mainly) through droplets. Normal masks don't work for airborne diseases. You're still breathing the air in the room that infectious people (masked or not) are filling up with viral particles.
Dude WTF?

When you breathe, you expel droplets of fluid, and these can contain virus particles. The big droplets tend to have limited range and drop to the floor - this is commonly called droplet transmission, and is definitely effective at transmitting infection. The smaller droplets (also called aerosols) can go a much longer distance and hang around in the air for a protracted period of time, and this is what's termed airborne transmission. These are infectious, whether as very small droplets of fluid, or if they dry up to leave virus particles floating around (in a manner similar to, say, dust).

Let's be absolutely clear about this: if you have a material barrier between your breathing passages and the atmosphere, that barrier is going to intercept a substantial number of small particles whether they are very small virus-containing droplets or very small bits of virus-containing dry matter.

Show me at least one mask study just as good as that vitamin d study in a nursing home in France.
Do you mean this? Do you think it is a good study?

Secondly, as I repeatedly say, at the point you are trying to pick on individual papers to make your point, you are asking for trouble. Like with ivermectin, where the principal study that supported its use turns out to look very much like it is fraudulent, and without it there isn't even a shadow of an adequate case.

Cuz I haven't seen any mask study that shows data that's even close to that good
Yes, but (as above) some weird sort of single paper face-offs are an inappropriate way to consider the science; the simple fact you are trying to make such an argument indicates you have very low skills in scientific analysis. And if you do not have the requisite skills in scientific analysis, what you think the science shows is more than a little unpersuasive.

4) What studies show vitamin D levels aren't consistent with covid outcomes?
You are asking the wrong question. The correct question to ask is "What does the sum total of studies say about the link between vitamin D and covid outcomes?" The answer to that question is "Very little".

And by the way giving me some study where they gave people loads of D3 after infection shows nothing because it takes like a week for the body to convert that to the active form of vitamin D.
This, biologically, makes absolutely no sense at all. If you take a huge, single bolus of vitamin D3, once absorbed it will start being converted into the 25OHD and then the active form of vitamin D by liver enzymes immediately, and tissue delivery will occur rapidly. To use an analogy, codeine must also be converted into an active form (i.e. morphine) by liver enzymes before it works as an analgesic. And yet you pop a couple of codeine tablets, you'll feel pain relief in about 30 minutes: because 30 minutes is all it takes for enough codeine to be absorbed, converted to morphine, and that morphine to be transported to your central nervous system. You might argue that it takes a week for the maximal concentration of a single Vit D bolus to develop (as conventionally measured by plasma 25OHD), but in fact the amount of available, active vitamin D will increase substantially within hours.

What you might more safely argue is that the theorised benefits of vitamin D require long-term biological changes (such as altering protein expression, or complex cell activity and proliferation) that takes days-weeks. An analogy here might be SSRIs for depression: they will increase levels of 5-HT (serotonin) within hours, but the anti-depressant effects do not emerge for about 2-3 weeks because it is theorised that the benefit of enhanced serotonergic signalling is that it causes long-term changes to neuronal activity which need that time to develop. Or taking iron for iron deficiency anaemia, because resolving the anaemia is dependent on the relatively slow process of red blood cell production.

So whilst there may be an element of possibility in what you say (in that a vitamin D bolus in hospital does not have sufficient time to exert protective effects to prevent illness worsening), you're also telling me you that don't know what you're talking about.
 
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Agema

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What is it with America and fucking over languages?

What ever happened to the Epsilon, Zeta, Eta, Theta, Iota and Kappa variants?
They already exist, but they are considered relatively low concern variants as they don't appear to be any more problematic than basic covid.
 
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Seanchaidh

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They already exist, but they are considered relatively low concern variants as they don't appear to be any more problematic than basic covid.
so it wasn't just named by someone who is a fan of these?


COVID IS AIRBORNE, it's not spread (mainly) through droplets. Normal masks don't work for airborne diseases. You're still breathing the air in the room that infectious people (masked or not) are filling up with viral particles.
Did you really just post this?
 

Buyetyen

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COVID IS AIRBORNE, it's not spread (mainly) through droplets. Normal masks don't work for airborne diseases. You're still breathing the air in the room that infectious people (masked or not) are filling up with viral particles.
Your ignorance is matched only by your arrogance.
 
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stroopwafel

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An analogy here might be SSRIs for depression: they will increase levels of 5-HT (serotonin) within hours, but the anti-depressant effects do not emerge for about 2-3 weeks because it is theorised that the benefit of enhanced serotonergic signalling is that it causes long-term changes to neuronal activity which need that time to develop.
Isn't that mostly bogus, based on claims by big pharma that can't be reproduced.