They are trying to cancel Dave Chappell

[Cheetodust]

Ib

You are 100% correct. It's why he stopped doing Chapelle Show after the 2nd season. He didn't want the attention of racists and misaimed fandom who watch the show for more ammunition or the wrong reasons. The Boondocks had a similar problem, but with addition of wannabe ghetto/gangsta or blacks embracing foolishness and ignorance.


The only difference is Arron Mcgruder made an actual fucking point.

​

I thought as much. Just wanted to confirm that Chappelle does in fact realise that words can cause harm before I started calling him a hypocrite.

Thing is, I've defended Chappelle before for another problematic bit where he talks about a victim of R Kelly. The bit being "how old is 15 really". It is very uncomfortable BUT the point is to compare that to a 15 year old black kid who accidentally killed his neighbour and got life in prison. The how old is 15 really is meant to make you uncomfortable because it makes you realise how black kids are held to different standards than white kids.

Lenny Bruce used to do a very not PC bit, "Any n****** here tonight" which is actually very similar to a modern Donald Glover bit about trying to make the n word powerless. I think it's a well intentioned bit. But would never say anyone is wrong for thinking it crosses a line and potentially does more harm than good.

But the difference between those bits and modern Chappelle is the intention. The former two bits are trying to build up oppressed people, the modern Chappelle but is him just raining shit on trans people, a severely victimised group2. Seems like he considers other equality movements to be in contest with civil rights maybe and thinks he needs to attack them.

And the thing, finally is, people can't act like stand up plays some important role in our culture and venerate the likes of Carlin and Hicks and then also claim "jokes are only words and words have no power." if jokes can make the world better for people then they can also make it worse.

 

[CriticalGaming]

And the thing, finally is, people can't act like stand up plays some important role in our culture and venerate the likes of Carlin and Hicks and then also claim "jokes are only words and words have no power." if jokes can make the world better for people then they can also make it worse.

Indeed. But what gives people the right to determine what those words do for everyone else. Being offended is such a personal thing, and a lot of times people think that of they are offended then so should everyone else. And when other people are fine with the thing that offends you, it somehow makes it even more offensive as if the world dares not to share in your sensitivity.

There are bad jokes and there are good jokes but there are no jokes that people will universally agree sit on either side of that line. A joke that has people in stitches can also have people in tears, so in that situation who is in the right?

The answer is of course, there isn't a right. One simply must move past it and understand that a particular comedian isnt for them, while at the same time understand that the people who enjoyed jokes that upset you arent automatically bad people.

Just like violence in video games doesnt cause real world violence. Jokes dont cause racism, sexism, or bigotry.

 

[Buyetyen]

Indeed. But what gives people the right to determine what those words do for everyone else. Being offended is such a personal thing, and a lot of times people think that of they are offended then so should everyone else. And when other people are fine with the thing that offends you, it somehow makes it even more offensive as if the world dares not to share in your sensitivity.

Are you describing woke people or people who complain about wokeness?

Just like violence in video games doesnt cause real world violence. Jokes dont cause racism, sexism, or bigotry.

No one said they did. But they can contribute to a climate of hostility. Once again, you're trying to have it both ways. Comedy is sacrosanct and must be protected for all criticism, yet it is also somehow a powerless, trivial part of our culture with no broader societal impact.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Lenny Bruce used to do a very not PC bit....

And Lenny Bruce was arrested multiple times for "obscenity" and barred from entering the UK as an "undesirable alien". How's that for "cancelling"?

 

[CriticalGaming]

Are you describing woke people or people who complain about wokeness?



No one said they did. But they can contribute to a climate of hostility. Once again, you're trying to have it both ways. Comedy is sacrosanct and must be protected for all criticism, yet it is also somehow a powerless, trivial part of our culture with no broader societal impact.

Criticism is fine. But trying to delete the comedy from existing is another thing entirely.

Blog about how terrible Dave's jokes were all you want. Demanding the special be removed from a platform entirely is another thing. It is saying "I dont like this and therefore nobody else should be given the chance to ever see it."

Those are different things. Critique all you like, hell complain all you like, fair game imo. Demanding removal is just being a pissy brat though.

The problem is people taking the comedy too literally and missing the messaging or conflating it to fit an unintentional narrative designed to make it seem like a source for society's problems.

The core of comedy is to get people talking. And to that end Dave has done incredibly well here, as with previous specials. It highlights a good point in that story. And if you think the core of that story is transphobia then you didnt pay attention to what he said, something i bet a lot of people protesting him ignored.

 

[Buyetyen]

The core of comedy is to get people talking.

No, the core of good comedy is to illuminate truths about our society. And you can't do that when you're too busy ranting and being an asshole like Dave did. I watched the bit. Where is the punchline? What is the joke? What is the truth that is being highlighted in a humorous way?

My fucking god, non-comedians need to shut the fuck up about what comedy is and isn't. You're always wrong.

 

[CriticalGaming]

No, the core of good comedy is to illuminate truths about our society. And you can't do that when you're too busy ranting and being an asshole like Dave did. I watched the bit. Where is the punchline? What is the joke? What is the truth that is being highlighted in a humorous way?

My fucking god, non-comedians need to shut the fuck up about what comedy is and isn't. You're always wrong.

And how are you the arbitor of "good" comedy?

The irony in telling non-comedians to shut the fuck up in incredibly thick here.

The punchline in Dave's story is that there isnt a punchline. Dave was supportive and impressed by his friend and he is mad that a little twitter exchange could upset her so much she would take her own life. He is very open about his hatred for social media and this is a story meant to highlight that. Notice that he never misgenders his friend throughout the story and any male references are done in the abstract and are never directly used to misgender her.

But again the substance of the story told in a humorous light because it is a comedy show, is lost on people because all they hear is Dave talking about a trans women and everything else might as well be white noise.

Pay attention to what he says and show me the bigotry. Show me the unironic transphobia. Tell me how this story is in any way dangerous. School me.

 

[AnxietyProne]

There are bad jokes and there are good jokes

And despite what a lot of people think, making material with the intent to be offensive does NOT make it "good" automatically, and I do not lack a sense of humor because I refuse to laugh at your shit material.

And how are you the arbitor of "good" comedy?

"I identify as an attack helicopter". Give me a case for why I should laugh at that.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The punchline in Dave's story is that there isnt a punchline. Dave was supportive and impressed by his friend and he is mad that a little twitter exchange could upset her so much she would take her own life. He is very open about his hatred for social media and this is a story meant to highlight that. Notice that he never misgenders his friend throughout the story and any male references are done in the abstract and are never directly used to misgender her.

"I loved your father, he was a wonderful woman" isn't directly misgendering her?

A joke among close friends, maybe, a joke told to millions on your $25 million dollar comedy special to people who are not friends?

Niggas vs. Black People - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Agema]

"I loved your father, he was a wonderful woman" isn't directly misgendering her?

Not obviously, no. I don't know the context, but it seems to me that someone could reasonably be described as both a father and a woman, presumably because at one point in the past pre-transition she put her penis in a woman and produced a baby.

 

[CriticalGaming]

And despite what a lot of people think, making material with the intent to be offensive does NOT make it "good" automatically, and I do not lack a sense of humor because I refuse to laugh at your shit material.


"I identify as an attack helicopter". Give me a case for why I should laugh at that.

Correct it isn't automatically funny, but depending on how good the comedian is it CAN be funny. And that's the point. Some people will ultimately enjoy that style of comedy as it is a comedic style that has existed for a long time. And being offensive doesn't automatically mean you are offending people specifically.

The point is there should be freedom to attempt to be funny regardless of the subject, otherwise you are saying that people need to be censored and that is a very slippery slope is it not? Some people will find it funny, and others won't and that's their freedom to enjoy.

"I loved your father, he was a wonderful woman" isn't directly misgendering her?

Oh you mean this statement in which he confirms that the transperson was the gender that they felt they were inside? The "he" was a wonderful woman, used in direct reference to the father as a him in the time in which they were a he yet affirming that they were in fact a woman regardless. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being acknowledged as the gender the transperson believes themselves to be is the ultimate goal, and Dave affirming Daphne as a woman is supposed to be what happens.

 

[Eacaraxe]

I agree with this. We need other people to be trans icons. Whatever happened to Chaz Bono? I don't particularly recall him doing anything wrong, he just kind of faded away from public consciousness when Caitlyn Jenner became a thing.

More to the point, more people who aren't personified dumpster fires need to be visible. Except that can't and won't happen in our current media landscape, which prioritizes highlighting personified dumpster fires before a national audience, for cash and prizes (see also, Trump).

Chaz Bono vanished from the public eye because, other than being a trans man about whom zero fucks are ever given by our deeply hypocritical and double standard-laden mass media and activist landscape, he was pseudo/proto-canceled over some comments he made during his DWTS appearances and promo tours. If I remember right, activists took issue with how he described HRT, the necessity of it, having top surgery, and the outcomes of his transition to the media. But the big thing is, Bono has his shit in order, keeps his activism low-key and genuine, and doesn't run around acting the damn fool, thereby making him less appealing for prime time news and punditry.

Look also at Elliot Page, who apparently dropped off the face of the planet after the "coming out" media frenzy that lasted approximately a week, but apparently found his way back to Earth to wear sneakers to the Met Gala or some other equally-vapid shit, before returning to The Great Media Beyond.

See also, how Laverne Cox doesn't play games and doesn't put up with the goofball bullshit, dumbfuck "questions", sensationalism, and general idiocy of the media. Like when Cox chewed out Katie Couric on her own show for asking about bottom surgery instead of unemployment, depression, harassment, hate crime, and suicide rates among trans people.

But I mean, back to the point. It's still hard to come down on Chappelle for this, especially considering the black trans employee who was organizing a protest walkout at Netflix got summarily canned on unproven allegations of leaking internal data to the press, but the white one that apparently busted into an executive-level meeting and made an ass of herself while talking mad shit about Netflix on social media got a slap on the wright in the form of a suspension that was overruled in like a day.

Least of all when the people screeching about Chappelle are the "intersectionality uber alles" crowd, when the one person involved with this whole-ass tempest in a teakettle who is demonstrating actual understanding of intersectionality is Chappelle.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh you mean this statement in which he confirms that the transperson was the gender that they felt they were inside? The "he" was a wonderful woman, used in direct reference to the father as a him in the time in which they were a he yet affirming that they were in fact a woman regardless. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being acknowledged as the gender the transperson believes themselves to be is the ultimate goal, and Dave affirming Daphne as a woman is supposed to be what happens.

Don't know why you keep asking people explain things and then argue that they're wrong.

Because you don't know any of this. Chapelle only knew her as a woman and said at the beginning of it that that made a difference. And then the heartwarming punchline of his 13 minute story was "when Daphne's daughter grows up, I'm gonna hand her a bunch of money and affectionately misgender her dead mom who I never knew before she transitioned" And the crowd goes "aww"

I can perfectly accept that you don't see any issue there. I'd be surprised if you did. But c'mon, using dead moms as a vehicle for a punchline about trans people older than attack helicopters? For a supposedly GOAT comedian, it's fucking lazy

Add in the bit in the middle of the story where he says he's gonna stop telling jokes about the LGBTQAI<keysmash> community "until I know we are all laughing together" combined with the fact that he doesn't know and/or care that people are finding these jokes not funny, and it's got big Seinfeld "the kids don't think I'm funny anymore and it's their fault" energy.

 

[Dreiko]

The only difference is Arron Mcgruder made an actual fucking point.

​

I think Chris Rock did too, but if I'm being honest I doubt that would matter to the folks who'd be upset over the wording of the point, no matter how good it was. That's kinda my point too, the nuance is in figuring out if the point you're making is worth the unintended consequences.

I think relatively few people are determinedly racist. I suspect a lot of people are more sort a spectrum of "don't knows", who mostly just have low awareness of the issues and thus might often be racist without any particular intent or conviction. It would be more fruitful to provide such people with guidance how not be racist rather than just write them off as racist.

I don't think those sorts of people are racist at all. They may be ignorant or bigoted in some way but that's about it. And I don't think the point of comedy is to guide ignorant people or to worry about how they may perceive it. If that's how you went about writing jokes you wouldn't be able to joke about very much at all.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

View attachment 4692

Dave Chapelle quit his own show over people laughing at his jokes wrong. Dave Chapelle is the clearest example of somebody taking offense to a Dave Chapelle joke presented in good faith that I can think of. That he can't connect that personal experience to anybody else is weird to me

Why don't you show that comic to young up and coming comedians that are being harassed and canceled?

Here is the full story in total context. I don't really see what is wrong with it but I'm Cis so WTF do I know. Watch it yourself and judge if it is "cancel" worthy. As far as I can tell Dave is just telling a story about a trans friend of his and despite it being told with humor, it seems like he really was friends with this person.

If anything the comedy special is making people less transphobic because I don't know how you can be after watching the ENTIRE show. And if trans people were to actually succeed in removing a Dave Chappelle special from Netflix, I think that would cause more people to be transphobic or at least those that are transphobic to be more hateful.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Here is the full story in total context. I don't really see what is wrong with it but I'm Cis so WTF do I know. Watch it yourself and judge if it is "cancel" worthy. As far as I can tell Dave is just telling a story about a trans friend of his and despite it being told with humor, it seems like he really was friends with this person.

That's it?

That's what people are mad about?

Jesus I've seen BBC comedy series that were move offensive that that. It may be because I'm Cis too but this seems like a case of stuff being taken out of context to make him seem much worse because the only people I could see being actively mad about that is people who:

1) Did drag Daphne and are feeling guilty about it but refusing to believe they did wrong so lashing out at him.
Or
2) People who have had a go at Dave's people and are pissed at being called out about it so lashing out back because they thought the rules were they could do what they wanted and should be protected from any possible blowback.

 

[Silvanus]

The problem is people taking the comedy too literally and missing the messaging or conflating it to fit an unintentional narrative designed to make it seem like a source for society's problems.

The core of comedy is to get people talking. And to that end Dave has done incredibly well here, as with previous specials. It highlights a good point in that story. And if you think the core of that story is transphobia then you didnt pay attention to what he said, something i bet a lot of people protesting him ignored.

Uhrm, how do you take the story?

Because from what I've seen, Chappelle clearly has a chip on his shoulder about trans people (having moaned and griped about them extensively over several specials now). And it's not "ironic" or anything; he just spends the time condemning & criticising.

That's it?

No, that's not it, that's just the very end. He dwells on the subject for quite a lot of time throughout the whole show, as well as in two of his earlier specials. It's a real bugbear of his.

 

[BrawlMan]

No, that's not it, that's just the very end. He dwells on the subject for quite a lot of time throughout the whole show, as well as in two of his earlier specials. It's a real bugbear of his.

Because from what I've seen, Chappelle clearly has a chip on his shoulder about trans people (having moaned and griped about them extensively over several specials now). And it's not "ironic" or anything; he just spends the time condemning & criticising.

Yep. Korey and Martin pointed it out in the DT video on the first page I posted. There is a huge, noticeable pattern. I like Chapelle, but he has definite issues he should work on and seek help.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Uhrm, how do you take the story?

I think the story is Dave legit upset about the death of his good trans friend. In fact the family of Daphne have apparently come forward about Dave and sung his praises. So it's a story with a bit of hyperbolic jokes thrown in because it's a comedy show after all, but all in all it's a comedic way to talk about his friend.

I think Dave does have a chip on his shoulder about outrage culture, and the insane sensitivity of the "alphabet people" such that they want to be considered equal and included into society openly, yet want special treatment at the same time (like not being joked about). A lot of comedians share the same viewpoint in that a tolerant society is a society that can make fun of each other and everyone laughs.

And Dave's criticism is because of this push back against him and any other comedian who gets in trouble for telling a couple of jokes. And the more they get mad at him the more he doubles down because he is not going to let people bully him by saying what he can and can not make jokes about. And a lot of people are backing him up at this point because they are tired of it too.

I don't believe comedy can exist if every comedian or writer must walk on eggshells about what they say or how they say it. I mean fuck, Yahtzee openly has said "Ni**er" in several Zero Punctuation episodes and I've never once seen anyone complain about it. Those episodes are freely available on the Escapist's official Youtube channel. What about his white, cis, british ass, give him an N-word pass? Why are people never upset with him. Let alone the countless jokes he makes about gargling cum and rape and any number of other topics that would otherwise garner him trouble.

Maybe it's because he is funny, and people understand his whole series is satire.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Are you describing woke people or people who complain about wokeness?



No one said they did. But they can contribute to a climate of hostility. Once again, you're trying to have it both ways. Comedy is sacrosanct and must be protected for all criticism, yet it is also somehow a powerless, trivial part of our culture with no broader societal impact.

Well comedy allows the broaching of difficult topics people often don't like to talk about or are seen as Taboo in such a way they can start a conversation about them.

As an example I could tell the story of my best friends attempted suicide. Sounds like a really bad story (he's fine with me telling it and finds it hilarious what happened).

We we're on a night out and the dude was on about how bad his life was and how he had nothing to live for etc etc. He then steps out in front of a bus.
There was this moment of blind panic for me watching. Here's my best friend he's stepped out into the road in the middle of the night in front of a bus. It was like time slowed I turned from him his eyes closed accepting his fate stood in the middle of that road to looking at the bus part was along the road, there wouldn't be time for it to stop even if it saw him in the headlights. The world seemed to slow down as my brain processed the idea I was about to watch my best friend die horribly or at least get badly maimed my body stuck between a mix of preparing for the shock of what I was about to witness and adrenaline starting to flow as my brain figured out if I would be able to act and prevent his death, run out into the road and push him out the way. My pulse pounding in my ears. My body preparing if my brain making the decision to try and act. Then my brain popped up a thought. A single thought based on observations. I couldn't see the bus in view yet. A speeding bus would just be entering the periphery of my vision of the scene by now. It wasn't. As though the world were still in slow motion I turned back from my friend to the bus and it was then I realised.

The Bus was parked with no driver. My friend had stepped out infront of a parked bus whose lights had been left on and was there in the middle of the road with his eyes closed limbs spread starred waiting for death not realising the mistake. The adrenaline surge dropped off. The world returned to normal speed for me and I waked into the middle of that road, tapped him on the shoulder and said "Come on" and watched his eyes open and a confused expression come over his face and I then said "I'll buy you a drink at the next place we get to" and we both walked out of the road and carried on the night out.

And just like that I've managed to broach the difficult topic of depression and attempted suicide by talking about a real life experience I've had and hopefully people can see the humour in what really happened there that my friend stepped out infront of a parked bus and I lost my shit in panic basically neither of us realising that from an outsiders perspective there's a guy in the middle of the road standing as a star with his eyes closed in front of a parked bus and there's this other idiot freaking out about it for some reason.