Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Hawki]

Snip

...what the fuck did I just read?

Y'know what irritates me? It isn't just that the article is nonsensical, it's that it likely undermines ACTUAL indigenous science, or TEK. I'm not talking about humor and gravity mumbo jumbo, I'm referring to, among other things, indigenous land management here (e.g. fire hazzard reduction via firestick farming), or the fact that indigenous peoples do a better job of maintaining biodiversity than even reserves. These are verifiable outcomes that aren't about, to quote another similar piece, based on "the failed concept of linear time."

 

[Dreiko]

Also just wanna point out we've moved the goal post to a new parallel dimension, because the original original original claim was "it's just 100 people on twitter" and now we're arguing about scientific magazines written in by scientists and academic discourse and thought experiments and what have you.


Suffice it to say my point that it wasn't just the twitter people is established by now.

 

[Trunkage]

I don't think it's nefarious. I think it's just a misguided concept of progress that focuses on replacing old ideas with new ones without proper consideration for whether it's beneficial to do so.

I'm pretty sure 'decolonization' is more about not replacing what Europeans added to science, and more about point out assumption that were made coming from a Europeans perspective and could be updated.

But I'm aware some people want to do a whole rewrite. Which I think is pointless.

 

[Trunkage]

Also just wanna point out we've moved the goal post to a new parallel dimension, because the original original original claim was "it's just 100 people on twitter" and now we're arguing about scientific magazines written in by scientists and academic discourse and thought experiments and what have you.


Suffice it to say my point that it wasn't just the twitter people is established by now.

I'm pretty sure demanding that other countries be able to get a chance to provide into the scientific consensus or even helping them to get vaccines would be seen as incredibly woke. Particularly by people who run places like The Conversation

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

It does in the context of people delusionally catastrophising that any minute the woke mob are going force medicine degrees to teach treating malaria cases by waving chickens and Coca-cola bottles over the patient.

The female problem: how male bias in medical trials ruined women's health

Centuries of female exclusion has meant women’s diseases are often missed, misdiagnosed or remain a total mystery

www.theguardian.com

It's not catastrophising when I can point to outlets suddenly realising there is harm going on.

The was a big push from activist circles to push the idea of men and women as being just the same and research was being stigmatised for trying to suggest more fundamental differences on a cellular level between the sexes (See Anita Sarkeesian claiming that there is fundamentally no difference between men and women) . There was a push against the idea of sexual dimorphism in humans by feminist groups in the past

It's on record here


No sexual dimorphisms, no sexual dimorphism research no reason to try and push clinical trials to have more women in them because no idea of other difference being caused by sex.

But hey it's not like people are pushing whacky alt medicine cures or anything pretending it's ancient wisdom and secret knowledge right?

Then of course the perhaps more political aspect, where certain people don't want us to think about stuff like how science was used to promote racism. And one of the ways they do that is to pretend anyone wanting to "decolonise science" is trying to make us believe that witch-doctors can cause lightning strikes.

She's literally on video pushing for it dude. The Indigenous "Science" foundation think I linked to is that insane on it's own it doesn't need people to make this shit up just point at what is already there

There is another general sense in that the world is just so full of information, much of which is bluster and bullshit. So do you want to be the sort of person furthering global wisdom, or do you want to be the sort of person who assists every last bit of clickbaity nonsense they can find on 4chan and Reddit find a bigger audience? I can get laughing at that sort of nonsense. I do not accept trying to trying to pass it off as anything more than the less-than-brilliant opinion of a random young person.

At some point the nonsense has to be addressed because the nonsense grows until it becomes a problem and claims reality itself is wrong or reality itself crashes down hard on it breaking it.

The Fucking Bleach cult went on for fucking years unchallenged and it's only thanks mostly to a bunch of youtubers that it was exposed and MMS was shut down somewhat but guess what MMS is back and there's some wacko government out there (I forget which) that were convinced MMS cures Covid-19 so is pushing for people to drink a form of bleach to to fight Covid-19. Oh and don't start with the "Trump told people to inject bleach" this is actual a form of fucking bleach not medical grade drugs already used to treat other conditions being trialled as a possible Covid-19 cure.

Oh, you poor martyr.

I'd say it was more amazed exasperation and just how far people will go from reality if they're told they pushing something progressie.

I think what's questionable is your apparent ability to discern the level of support for and societal consequences of different bad beliefs.

The consequences of undermining Science are pretty evident

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Pretending that a hypothetical "how would you disprove a shaman?" question means that you are advocating teaching black magic, apparently.
So, you're lumping a paper about how reactions to science differ between genders, how a philosophical argument about how numbers used in math aren't actually real (there's no such thing as a two), and how imposing a specific kind of learning style that doesn't mesh with how some groups of kids learn (caring more about the output than the process), in with creationism and anti-vax nonsense?

Like, all the "decolonize science" folks are pointing out is that western scientists...miss obvious things, and getting a fresh start with different cultures could lead to new knowledge. Archeology and anthropology are chock full of mysterious prayer "objects" (dildos), suppositions about putting knives in the rafters to "absorb sun power" (keep away from kids), and mysterious brick rings (chick holding pens). It's the height of arrogance to think we haven't missed something else along the way, so if some African country's university system wants to rediscover calculus, sure, why not?

The Art and Science of Staying Warm

People around the world are starting to clue in to what Northerners have always known: if you want to stay warm, there’s nothing better than a northern parka.

uphere.ca

I'm sorry but do you know how vast the world is in terms of thins in it?
The consider some places have a Science Research place that is maybe 1/5th the size of the religious presence (and that's likely an overstatement for science) then you have the level of accessibility for Science.

Science misses stuff? Yeh no shit some stuff works and Science hasn't got the time, resources or reason to stop and ask why because of how much stuff is going on "Oh Science might have missed that this one plant used by ancient healers actually did something", Ok put it in the pile with he 30,000 other claims and we'll get to testing it at some point but the 1 plant that works is hardly evidence of some great issue in Science when half a dozen or more other things put forward turned out to be at best useless and at worst actively poisonous or just got you very fucking high such that you didn't give a shit about the problem anymore.

Such as the scourge of illiberal SJW ideas meant to undermine the whole of science for nefarious purposes?

Oh goody I get to pull this one

I Origins Is Irreducibly Irritating - The Escapist

www.escapistmagazine.com

Simple version Hipster bullshit science wrong because it's authority but our new age religion is right BTW gizz some dosh.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The female problem: how male bias in medical trials ruined women's health

Centuries of female exclusion has meant women’s diseases are often missed, misdiagnosed or remain a total mystery

www.theguardian.com

It's not catastrophising when I can point to outlets suddenly realising there is harm going on.

The was a big push from activist circles to push the idea of men and women as being just the same and research was being stigmatised for trying to suggest more fundamental differences on a cellular level between the sexes (See Anita Sarkeesian claiming that there is fundamentally no difference between men and women) . There was a push against the idea of sexual dimorphism in humans by feminist groups in the past

It's on record here


No sexual dimorphisms, no sexual dimorphism research no reason to try and push clinical trials to have more women in them because no idea of other difference being caused by sex.

But hey it's not like people are pushing whacky alt medicine cures or anything pretending it's ancient wisdom and secret knowledge right?



She's literally on video pushing for it dude. The Indigenous "Science" foundation think I linked to is that insane on it's own it doesn't need people to make this shit up just point at what is already there


At some point the nonsense has to be addressed because the nonsense grows until it becomes a problem and claims reality itself is wrong or reality itself crashes down hard on it breaking it.

The Fucking Bleach cult went on for fucking years unchallenged and it's only thanks mostly to a bunch of youtubers that it was exposed and MMS was shut down somewhat but guess what MMS is back and there's some wacko government out there (I forget which) that were convinced MMS cures Covid-19 so is pushing for people to drink a form of bleach to to fight Covid-19. Oh and don't start with the "Trump told people to inject bleach" this is actual a form of fucking bleach not medical grade drugs already used to treat other conditions being trialled as a possible Covid-19 cure.



I'd say it was more amazed exasperation and just how far people will go from reality if they're told they pushing something progressie.


The consequences of undermining Science are pretty evident

You really can work Anita Sarkeesian into any argument, huh

 

[Hawki]

I'm pretty sure demanding that other countries be able to get a chance to provide into the scientific consensus or even helping them to get vaccines would be seen as incredibly woke. Particularly by people who run places like The Conversation

That's not wokeism. And even if it was, broadly speaking, the Conversation would support it.

I say "broadly" because the Conversation makes for good reading most of the time. I spend most of my time on the environment/energy pages, fluctuating between hope and despair.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

You really can work Anita Sarkeesian into any argument, huh

Hey she works as a great example of trends in areas she travels in and the circles she moves in.
She works well as an easy go to example that it's easy enough to pull up info about or relating to what she's said. Don't blame me because she's an easy go to example lol. I mean I could probably have spent 4 hours looking for some little known academic saying the same stuff but well Anita is far easier to bring up.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

They're private and are allowed to teach their bullshit by being private.

What we keep being told "Private organisation can do what they like"

Was talking about Christian students, but weird that you're okay with a Christian organization having obvious bullshit science but not indigenous schools

That was actually a panel supposed to be being done with some of the academic faculty and heads of science to discuss decolonising science lol.

That wasn't a thought experiment it was people from the Science department meeting with the activist group to try and discuss their issues and objections to science as it is now. Because that's what people like to try and do in civilised society, try to understand their opponents and find common ground. Turns out the only think that became understood from all that is just how ignorant and delusional the Fallists are but will frame any attempt to point that out as impolite and demand people entertain their nonsense rather than point out their ignorance.

I mean, the dude shouted an interruption when somebody was talking, that's pretty impolite.

If they want to re-run the ideas themselves they're welcome to. That's how Science is meant to work, you can challenge it and if you use the same rules and standards you will find the same results but they are claiming Science needs to re-do the stuff because it finding no evidence of bush magic working and them having no new evidence to present is evidence Science is racist because they say bush magic is true so it's true. It's like the old arguments from fundamentalist Chirstians that Science needed to prove God doesn't exist rather than they have to prove he does. Its the argument logic used to create the parody argument for why we must teach of the flying spaghetti monster, may his noodly appendages touch your hearts and minds.

It's indigenous science nonsense starting from the premise that Science must be wrong because they know the truth rather than searching for the truth with an actually open mind.

And yet, somehow the Inuit figured out cold weather living in a way that's taken centuries for western science to catch up, indigenous land management techniques are leagues ahead of our own...if you approached science with an open mind, you might think they may have a point.

It's that superiority complex that irks me, mainly.

Allow me to be equally blunt in return then (not that you'll likely see it to acknowledge reality anyway but stuff for the benefit of others here)

What is Indigenous Science? – WISN.org

wisn.org

IS = "Indigenous Science"

And that is just where he rabbit hole on this stuff begins before you end up about stuff about "The great overmind" etc.

To put some of the nonsense into understandable applications it means any data from any time period is applicable to any research. E.G. under IS rules I could argue that the number of people in the world is going down because I use only data for the period of World War II thus because massive amounts of people being killed off under IS rules I'd be right. If you wanted to challenge my research and show evidence of rising global population number you couldn't do so unless you were deemed to be more in tune with the great overmind than me. If I am deemed to be more in tune than you then you data is useless I am more reliable and the great overmind speaking through me means I am correct and revealing a hidden truth of reality.

Pretty sure your interpretation of that is bullshit and it's somewhat telling you only started copying that list halfway down.

Basically it's not fucking Science it's who acts like the biggest sociopath manipulating people to side with them that matters in IS not what he numbers and reality or even logic tells you.

Says some dude that thinks some South African students having a weird idea about science represents a direct threat to the scientific method

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Hey she works as a great example of trends in areas she travels in and the circles she moves in.
She works well as an easy go to example that it's easy enough to pull up info about or relating to what she's said. Don't blame me because she's an easy go to example lol. I mean I could probably have spent 4 hours looking for some little known academic saying the same stuff but well Anita is far easier to bring up.

I'm just impressed that she's apparently been influencing medicine in a negative way for 300 years.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I don't think it's nefarious. I think it's just a misguided concept of progress that focuses on replacing old ideas with new ones without proper consideration for whether it's beneficial to do so.

And so you'll dismiss it out of hand, without proper consideration for whether or not it's beneficial to do so

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Was talking about Christian students, but weird that you're okay with a Christian organization having obvious bullshit science but not indigenous schools

You wanna teach weird unproven shit then teach it just don't expect everyone to accept it as real and the truth. That simple. I wouldn't say I'm okay with it, I'd prefer they didn't but live and let live and as long as they're not trying to bring the ideas over let them do their thing. I mean if it gets the Vatican to use church funding to pay for actual science research that could come up with something and the price is that some weird schools teach some bullshit in part of the classes that anyone in those classes will likely see through or come to see through? yeh let them teach it if they feel they must. Same with indigenous schools as long as they teach actual science not indigenous Science ideas and methodology as the core thing

I mean, the dude shouted an interruption when somebody was talking, that's pretty impolite.

Because it was bullshit. It was interrupting some-one pushing an ignorant idea and honestly stepping in to interrupt her because everyone else who knew better in the room was cringing so hard and how much of a fool she was making of herself and how much she was showing her ignorance. It's hardly polite to allow some-one to continue making a fool of themselves so publicly like she was.

And yet, somehow the Inuit figured out cold weather living in a way that's taken centuries for western science to catch up, indigenous land management techniques are leagues ahead of our own...if you approached science with an open mind, you might think they may have a point.

Not really we figured furs were warm a long time ago lol. Land anagement I'll give you though but that's a shockingly young field in terms of actual Science like 1800s in terms of actual Science and not just farming know how ideas really.

It's that superiority complex that irks me, mainly.

Well some stuff is or was complete bollocks too that's the issue. Some stuff works and is known about some stuff just doesn't and the issue is the idea Science is showing a superiority complex by not accepting it all when the problem was in the past science rejecting it all. Again there's a lot in the world and only so much time and Science takes times and often money.

Pretty sure your interpretation of that is bullshit and it's somewhat telling you only started copying that list halfway down.
Says some dude that thinks some South African students having a weird idea about science represents a direct threat to the scientific method

Unfortunately not, at least not how I saw it being used and pushed before and how it's applied by some of it's advocates. Also yeh I staring copying the list part way down because there's where it goes batshit insane. You're welcome to read the rest of the site and see all the other batshit stuff if you want lol. Why would it matter if they were pretending to be sane and sensible early on before claiming the 5G frogs are spying on you for the CIA or something? The real headline would be the batshit stuff

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I'm just impressed that she's apparently been influencing medicine in a negative way for 300 years.

You have to realise modern immunology only started really in 1796 and structure of human cells only in 1665. We're still in fact learning more about human cells now. Science didn't really know that much and it's only through observation and questions about it that people thought to look if there were sex differences in human cells or human cell activity. ATP was only found in 1929 and the structure not known until 1948. So coming up with the idea of sex differences and looking into it more hasn't been that easy or possible but the idea was held back or shut down or tried to be not by Anita herself by but likely people following the same ideas and ideology she was eventually taught. Anita is a good example of the things she was taught and so give a good idea of when some of those ideas were active.

So yeh, it wasn't her doing it but most likely out own technological advancement not being complex enough to even attempt to do it but when it was then Anita (or more specifically her precursors) helped hold it back for years because to suggest such things was so offensive to them and broke their ideology so must be bad and stomped out from being suggested.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

You have to realise modern immunology only started really in 1796 and structure of human cells only in 1665. We're still in fact learning more about human cells now. Science didn't really know that much and it's only through observation and questions about it that people thought to look if there were sex differences in human cells or human cell activity. ATP was only found in 1929 and the structure not known until 1948. So coming up with the idea of sex differences and looking into it more hasn't been that easy or possible but the idea was held back or shut down or tried to be not by Anita herself by but likely people following the same ideas and ideology she was eventually taught. Anita is a good example of the things she was taught and so give a good idea of when some of those ideas were active.

So yeh, it wasn't her doing it but most likely out own technological advancement not being complex enough to even attempt to do it but when it was then Anita (or more specifically her precursors) helped hold it back for years because to suggest such things was so offensive to them and broke their ideology so must be bad and stomped out from being suggested.

So, Anita Sarkeesian, feminist culture blogger, is the cultural antecedent of our patriarchal medical field that routinely didn't even bother to ask about women's issue beyond how to best diagnose them with hysteria?

They weren't exactly "women are equal to men in every way" kinda guys. They were more: "women shouldn't ski jump because their uteruses will fall out. And I'm 99% sure that Sarkeesian wasn't talking about base biology

 

[tstorm823]

And so you'll dismiss it out of hand, without proper consideration for whether or not it's beneficial to do so

No. I've given thorough consideration for whether it's good for people to act without thinking about the consequences, and have concluded that it's a bad thing.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

No. I've given thorough consideration for whether it's good for people to act without thinking about the consequences, and have concluded that it's a bad thing.

Well, good thing that's not happening then. Like, you're literally objecting to people thinking about the consequences out loud

 

[tstorm823]

Well, good thing that's not happening then. Like, you're literally objecting to people thinking about the consequences out loud

No, I'm not. The only thing I objected to here was a hypothetical.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

So, Anita Sarkeesian, feminist culture blogger, is the cultural antecedent of our patriarchal medical field that routinely didn't even bother to ask about women's issue beyond how to best diagnose them with hysteria?

No she's antecedent of the idea that actually stopping said research was fighting the patriarchy and it was the evil patriarchal medical field trying to prove men and women had more differences all to try and oppress women more because that's totally the entire reason to prove the differences not actually help women. The medical field had no reason to know humans cells were different based on sex and not much ability to tell.

They weren't exactly "women are equal to men in every way" kinda guys. They were more: "women shouldn't ski jump because their uteruses will fall out. And I'm 99% sure that Sarkeesian wasn't talking about base biology

Also yes Anita was on about biology because previous pushes (as shown in the video) was about trying to change the article of sexual dimorphism to present claims of biological differences in the sexes beyond genitals to be just down to patriarchy and social pressure and nothing else.

 

[Trunkage]

No she's antecedent of the idea that actually stopping said research was fighting the patriarchy and it was the evil patriarchal medical field trying to prove men and women had more differences all to try and oppress women more because that's totally the entire reason to prove the differences not actually help women. The medical field had no reason to know humans cells were different based on sex and not much ability to tell.


Also yes Anita was on about biology because previous pushes (as shown in the video) was about trying to change the article of sexual dimorphism to present claims of biological differences in the sexes beyond genitals to be just down to patriarchy and social pressure and nothing else.

'And nothing else'?