Judge in Rittenhouse case might be a tad biased.

Dwarvenhobble

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As much as Im convinced he's guilty, the prosecution has been hysterically bad. If I didn't know better, and I really REALLY don't, I would swore the DA is way over his head and is purposefully trying to get a mistrial so this case doesn't appear on his record as a loss.
Between the defense actually letting him on the stand to attempt to squeeze out a few tears and appear sweet and innocent, and the prosecutors seeming to not know what the testimony of their witnesses is going to be, after having interviewed them, gotten statements and coached them on what to say, if this whole thing turned out to be a Mel Brooks level parody trial, I'd believe it.
And the Judge is earning no favors basically objecting to the prosecution as if he's the defense, while the defense seems to be asleep at the wheel.
It seems to be for all intents and purposes the DA vs the judge, and the defense is just the live studio audience.
The judge if following procedure and trying to keep control of the courthouse and apply the rules.

As was said the judge wasn't going to allow info about the previous convictions of the dead unless it came up as related to the case and the defence attorney pointed out he could have pushed that line as the prosecutor touched on background stuff for people to try and portray them as not a threat but the defence by the sounds of the videos suggested the prosecutor drop the line reminding him about what he'd do if he didn't. The defence isn't asleep at the wheel they're not not playing the showmanship game and are trying to make sure they defer to the judge to get ruling on submitting stuff.

So far the prosecution has called one of their witnesses to court then accused them of coming to court to self publicise. One of their own witnesses, just because the guy gave the prosecution egg on their faces by saying they did ask him to change his statements. The judge isn't amused because it's becoming a comedic circus where the prosecution are not even managing to keep within the accepted guidelines of civility let alone more complex procedure stuff such as respecting proper procedure.

I'm just amazed at how hard the prosecutors seem intent on torpedoing their own case. After a string of incredibly bad news, they had a shoot at turning things around with him unexpectedly taking the stand and they somehow found a way to fuck themselves up even more. It seem like a mistrial with another trial later on with different prosecutors is really the best case scenario for them.

To me the cases seems like a pretty shut cases, he had no reason to be there and put himself in danger. I can't go to a bar, wave a gun around and then shot someone who reach for their gun and claim self defence. If the first victim was alive he'd claim he was acting in self defence too, but he's dead so he can't do that.
I think the way they're going so far the judge may throw the case out with prejudice if they keep on with their antics though. I think even the judge is considering they're trying for a mis-trial but knows the prosecutor is experience enough to know better so is doing this deliberately to an extent aiming for that mistrial just to drag stuff out longer.

Also the first victim actively chased Rittenhouse. It's also an open carry state so no sorry "He had a gun so had to attack him as he could shoot me despite not indication he wanted to so it was self defence to attack first" isn't really a good case.


I associate "kick-the-can" to mean "let someone else decide this issue later." This is more "end the issue now and prevent it from being relitigated."
Is it possible some-one related to the dead or guy who survived or his relatives etc could bring a private prosecution or civil lawsuit after the dismissal with prejudice?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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The American Goverment\People didn't care about their fellow black men being disproportianetly targeted by the cops. That's what sparked these protests in the first place. And they will happen until they start caring. Being "tough" on protestors didn't stop them in the 60s or 90s, it won't stop them now.

They are absolutely intertwined, unless you want to pretend they aren't. And i want to know, what do you think would logistics of "just rushing in and arresting" thousands of angry protesters look like?
Some places during the protests they were actively handing the trouble makers who tried to start stuff over to the police lines and it worked pretty well.

Also a fairly tough crackdown ended the main portland protests pretty quickly.
 

CM156

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Is it possible some-one related to the dead or guy who survived or his relatives etc could bring a private prosecution or civil lawsuit after the dismissal with prejudice?
They could bring a civil action no matter what happens at the criminal trial. I'm not familiar with Wisconsin law, but "private prosecution" isn't really a thing in the United States, at least not when it comes to criminal trial.
The Statute of Limitations for wrongful death in Wisconsin, is, according to google, three years.
 
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Dreiko

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The American Goverment\People didn't care about their fellow black men being disproportianetly targeted by the cops. That's what sparked these protests in the first place. And they will happen until they start caring. Being "tough" on protestors didn't stop them in the 60s or 90s, it won't stop them now.

They are absolutely intertwined, unless you want to pretend they aren't. And i want to know, what do you think would logistics of "just rushing in and arresting" thousands of angry protesters look like?
The american government doesn't now and definitely didn't in the past even see black folks as people to begin with so I am not certain they violate this principle, but obviously I agree with your point on there.


And whatever the logistics, they are dwarfed by the cost of the damages caused when whole streets and car dealerships full of cars get burned to the ground, not to mention the shook confidence by the public with regards to public order and safety. You can't really put a pricetag on people feeling safe that their life's work won't go up in flames randomly cause the cops are too afraid to stop riots. They seem fine with stopping protests when it's native americans protesting oil pipelines, so they definitely have that capacity.
 
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MrCalavera

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And whatever the logistics, they are dwarfed by the cost of the damages caused when whole streets and car dealerships full of cars get burned to the ground, not to mention the shook confidence by the public with regards to public order and safety. You can't really put a pricetag on people feeling safe that their life's work won't go up in flames randomly cause the cops are too afraid to stop riots. They seem fine with stopping protests when it's native americans protesting oil pipelines, so they definitely have that capacity.
I'm not talking about ethics or whatever

I asked about cops PHYSICALLY detaining and arresting a crowd of angry protesters. Thousands, in an inner city area, not a few dozen protesting a pipeline in the middle of nowhere. How would they do it?
 

SilentPony

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I'm not talking about ethics or whatever

I asked about cops PHYSICALLY detaining and arresting a crowd of angry protesters. Thousands, in an inner city area, not a few dozen protesting a pipeline in the middle of nowhere. How would they do it?
Realistically they don't. They call in the National Guard who just starting firing.
 
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Dreiko

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I'm not talking about ethics or whatever

I asked about cops PHYSICALLY detaining and arresting a crowd of angry protesters. Thousands, in an inner city area, not a few dozen protesting a pipeline in the middle of nowhere. How would they do it?
You monitor the area by tracking where huge crowds are smashing things from the sky with helicopters and send out cops and buses and surround the people as soon as they start to smash things and arrest everyone there and put em in the buses in handcufs . They would prolly lack the manpower so deputizing the locals and having cops from other states come over, especially after the first night of burning down the city, would also be ways of enhancing their manpower. But basically what you had there were cops just holding a line and standing still, they could have just moved forward until the crowds dispersed or were lead to an empty area with nothing to loot or destroy.
 
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gorfias

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Due to the willful misconduct of the prosecutor yesterday, they're talking about disbarring the prosecutor. I'd think he'd get a suspension at least for even bringing this. The event was filmed from multiple angles. The prosecutor knew or should have known he did not have a case. I think he may have wanted a directed verdict/case thrown out so he could claim he was robbed.


I think this an important case as it illustrates a crazed rush to judgement by our legacy media. You can see collages of talking heads calling Rittenhouse every name in the book. Even after things like Rittenhouse brought a gun across state lines were refuted, they were still saying it. The case is a very good illustration that we should not jump to conclusions and be skeptical of the legacy media.

Example:
 

Eacaraxe

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I asked about cops PHYSICALLY detaining and arresting a crowd of angry protesters. Thousands, in an inner city area, not a few dozen protesting a pipeline in the middle of nowhere. How would they do it?
SIri, how do force multiplication, maneuver warfare, rapid dominance, and anti-access/area denial weapon systems work?

Last year is the definitive case example of how this works.

Cops use combined arms -- role-designated infantry on the ground (phalanxes up front, riflemen at back, sharpshooters up top) supported by armored fighting vehicles, with aerial support in the form of heli and drone surveillance -- as a force multiplier. This combined arms force employs maneuver warfare to select for strategically-advantageous ground, and contains and corrals (AKA, kettling) crowds to those locations before engagement. This is also a form of psychological warfare, as kettling and surrounding crowds incites fear and panic in the crowd.

As a prelude to engagement, they deploy anti-access and area denial weapons to degrade opposition's organizational competence, will to engage, and capacity to resist while obfuscating the instigating forces' maneuvers and creating time, ground, and opportunities to launch offensives. That's where tear gas and smoke grenades come in. Once opposition's capacity to resist has been sufficiently degraded, then cops go on the offensive, striking as rapidly and decisively as possible to suppress and defeat opposition with minimal risk not to the opposition forces but rather themselves.

US militaries learned this shit getting their asses handed to them in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq (twice). US militaries came home, some formed private security contractors and consulting firms, and together they taught urban police forces whilst putting military gear in those police forces' hands. Hence, the evolution in counter-protest strategies -- and the escalation of counter-protest -- between the civil rights era and now.

Civil rights protest in the '60s was an ultra-violent clusterfuck because police forces hadn't yet learned how to counter large-scale protest; civil rights protest today is an ultra-violent clusterfuck because police forces have. The only difference in counter-insurgency strategy and counter-protest strategy, is insufficient political will to use live rounds and willy pete in the latter, so cops have to satiate their bloodlust with tear gas, rubber bullets, and pepperballs.

Those lessons also apply to media presence and oversight. Public opinion turned against Vietnam -- and government response to the civil rights movement -- because the media had unfettered access and reported honestly on what was really going on. In the '90s and early '00s (the eras of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iraq), the government learned and put to practice curating media presence and controlling media access, so the media was not only incapable of reporting inconvenient truths, but they were bought in or bought off to report government-approved narratives. With the rise of social media and citizen reporting, that curation is no longer possible and therefore anyone with a phone or camera in their hands is to be considered part of opposition forces; hence, why cops were prioritizing reporters as targets last year.

Make no mistake, that's exactly what this is. Protest groups aren't viewed as citizens with civil rights and liberties, exercising their Constitutionally-guaranteed rights to assemble and speak. They're viewed as an oppositional force engaged in hostilities in designated AO's, against which counter-insurgency tactics are to be employed to defeat that force, and that end justifies the means. That's regardless of how violent a protest group may or may not be; that's the assumption by default and precisely what justifies preemptive militarized "crowd control".

Civil disobedience justifies escalation, and even if protestors aren't engaged in civil disobedience cops are entirely aware their own "crowd control" strategies incite panic...and that is precisely why they do it.

Even if someone is skeptical of any word I've said previous, I'll end with this. It's awfully strange how civil rights protest is never violent until cops show up and start kettling, isn't it?
 
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Hades

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Make no mistake, that's exactly what this is. Protest groups aren't viewed as citizens with civil rights and liberties, exercising their Constitutionally-guaranteed rights to assemble and speak. They're viewed as an oppositional force engaged in hostilities in designated AO's, against which counter-insurgency tactics are to be employed to defeat that force, and that end justifies the means. That's regardless of how violent a protest group may or may not be; that's the assumption by default and precisely what justifies preemptive militarized "crowd control".

Civil disobedience justifies escalation, and even if protestors aren't engaged in civil disobedience cops are entirely aware their own "crowd control" strategies incite panic...and that is precisely why they do it.
''We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news.

Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
 

SilentPony

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Wow.
The defense for Rittenhouse incorrectly claimed that an iPad's pinch-to-zoom function could modify footage of the incident, "creating what it thinks is there, not what necessarily is there." That sparked a debate between lawyers and Judge Schroeder, who maintained the burden was on the prosecution to show the imagery remained in its "virginal state," not on the defense to prove manipulation.

Fuck me. This trial. We wouldn't want to unfairly bias the jury by showing them what happened, now would we? How can a defense make such a claim and how can a Judge be so obviously in the defense's corner to allow it? If I were the DA this alone would be grounds for a mistrial. He's clearly not acting impartially.
Makes me wonder if the Judge is shooting for a mistrial as well. None of the legal teams involved seem to want to be involved or conduct this trial in any reasonable way.
We got the DA bringing up stuff he's been ordered not to, the Judge acting as the defense, and now the actual defense just making up technical specifications. I wonder if Apple is going to be stepping in now to defend their product?
 

Schadrach

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Being an unaccompanied minor in illegal possession of a firearm
...is only relevant to the firearms charge, not the shootings. I'll agree with you he should probably be found guilty of the firearms charge but that doesn't change anything regarding the shootings. And before you bring up the felony murder rule (which most states have some version of), the firearms charge isn't a felony for the minor possessing the gun.

Another question for our resident lawyer: That video where George Floyd's "nephew" (not actually, but he calls himself that) talks about having photos of the jurors and suggests that they need to make sure they give the right verdict, if Rittenhouse is found guilty could it be used to argue for a mistrial, as it's basically publicly threatening jurors? What are the odds that guy is going to get charged over that video?

I can't go to a bar, wave a gun around and then shot someone who reach for their gun and claim self defence.
If you were in an open carry state, you could very well wear your gun into the bar (assuming the bar doesn't have a policy forbidding it on their property), and doing so does not invalidate your right to self-defense.

The defense for Rittenhouse incorrectly claimed that an iPad's pinch-to-zoom function could modify footage of the incident, "creating what it thinks is there, not what necessarily is there."
Pinch-to-zoom during playback, or during recording? Because that's wacky nonsense regarding playback (it does interpolation to make the video look nicer during playback but makes no change to the recording), but during recording digital zoom does some interpolation in a fashion that could be argued as "modifying" if you wanted to be pedantic about it (it essentially looks at the actual pixels and "makes up" what an algorithm says it probably looks like in between the actual pixels from the camera - this is why optical zoom looks better than digital zoom and why newer digital zooms look better than early digital zooms).

That sparked a debate between lawyers and Judge Schroeder, who maintained the burden was on the prosecution to show the imagery remained in its "virginal state," not on the defense to prove manipulation.
The job of the defense is to poke enough holes in the prosecution's case to constitute "reasonable doubt." That's it. They don't have to prove innocence, they don't have to prove much of anything at all, just open a door for "reasonable doubt." That's literally what they are talking about when they say that someone must be found guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt", that the prosecution's case need be sufficiently solid and unassailable that there is not a reasonable doubt to be had.
 

SilentPony

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The job of the defense is to poke enough holes in the prosecution's case to constitute "reasonable doubt." That's it. They don't have to prove innocence, they don't have to prove much of anything at all, just open a door for "reasonable doubt." That's literally what they are talking about when they say that someone must be found guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt", that the prosecution's case need be sufficiently solid and unassailable that there is not a reasonable doubt to be had.
...that's not how reasonable doubt works. To be beyond reasonable doubt is considered one of the highest levels of surety, yes, but creating reasonable doubt is not just wild, baseless claims. You can't just claim, without evidence or expert testimony, that iPad zooming in during playback changes the actual video to show something else. That's a hell of a huge claim, and one Apple should have something to say about because its claiming their iPad video recording software in faulty.
And just claiming shit that's against the prosecution isn't how "poking holes" really works. By that logic they should just claim it was a Rittenhouse evil clone that did everything, because the prosecution can't prove it wasn't an evil clone.
The prosecution does have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, yes, but they don't have to prove facts not in evidence. They didn't have to prove an AR15 is a gun. They didn't have to prove Kenosha is in the US. They didn't have to prove Rittenhouse's first name is Kyle. And they certainly don't have to prove that zoomed in playback of a video doesn't change the video to show actions that aren't there.
 
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Schadrach

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You can't just claim, without evidence or expert testimony, that iPad zooming in during playback changes the actual video to show something else.
In the strictest, most pedantic sense it does, albeit not in a practically meaningful sense, unless you have to zoom in a lot on a particular spot where something smallish is happening. Because it's digital zoom, and digital zoom takes the image as it is and using an algorithm invents what "should" be in between the pixels it actually has. So it necessarily "modifies" the video for playback, and the right response would be to argue that any modification to the video done by the digital zoom is irrelevant in context which it shouldn't be hard to find an expert willing to state so long as the area in question is more than a handful of pixels. Or they could just take the image and zoom without interpolation and let the jury see the grainier resulting footage as what the camera actually saw and see if it still appears to show what is relevant.
 

SilentPony

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In the strictest, most pedantic sense it does, albeit not in a practically meaningful sense, unless you have to zoom in a lot on a particular spot where something smallish is happening. Because it's digital zoom, and digital zoom takes the image as it is and using an algorithm invents what "should" be in between the pixels it actually has. So it necessarily "modifies" the video for playback, and the right response would be to argue that any modification to the video done by the digital zoom is irrelevant in context which it shouldn't be hard to find an expert willing to state so long as the area in question is more than a handful of pixels. Or they could just take the image and zoom without interpolation and let the jury see the grainier resulting footage as what the camera actually saw and see if it still appears to show what is relevant.
Which to be fair, sounds like a debate for lawyers to have. What definition of "altered" are we using. A literal "if we zoom in, we've zoomed in, and that's different" or the more fundamental "zooming in is not the same as doctering and changing the actual footage to something else."
And it seems weird the Judge ruled the prosecution has 15mins to find and call in an expert witness to rebuff the claims. That seems like a window designed to let the defense get away with such a claim.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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Ok, so a genuine shower thought I had last night while thinking about this. So I was thinking about how everyone just wants to view this event entirely through the lense of what we saw in videos from the event, of a kid fighting off two people by shooting them, with no further context before or after, when I realized this was the entire problem, because while we have the videos of Rittenhouse shooting the two men in a street, I don't remember seeing video of the first man getting shot and killed. This is important because not only is this the inciting incident that leads to the other two shootings, but the first man shot and killed was not armed, or even attacking Rittenhouse. His only crime was being in the same crowd where someone else fired a gun into the air and being the first person Rittenhouse saw when he panicked and fired his weapon (which was illegal for him to carry, pretty much for this exact reason). Then, all it takes is people at the back of the crowd panicking and going "oh my god, he has a gun and just killed someone" for others operating on this same bullshit mixture of good intentions and wanting to see some excitement/get into some shit that brought Rittenhouse here as they go after someone who they think is a spree shooter.