Another thread about sexism in video games.

[CriticalGaming]

So I was browsing around on the internet today as I usually do when it's another boring Monday in the office before the holidays, which aren't quite over, and i came across an article on Bloomburg. Bloomburg typically does a bit more business centric articles but occasionally dips into tech and video games whenever their editors get desperate for content.

Today's article is bragging about how cool Aloy is in Horizon Zero Dawn and the upcoming sequel and how it's just so great that strong female characters are starting to emerge from Sony Entertainment.

Video Game Industry Struggles to Shake Sexist Attitudes

Denigrating portrayals of women are common in popular titles, but a hit Sony game offers a glimmer of hope that things are changing.

www.bloomberg.com

As expected of most video game articles, a lot of what is said in the article comes from a writer who doesn't have any real basis in video game history and therefore doesn't have references available (except google, but come on what self repecting journalist is actually going to bother doing research anyway?) to immediately dig through their lifetime of playing video games to call out the countless "strong female characters" out of a very deep hat.

There is, however some grounding of meaning here in the article that I think needs to be related more clearly.

I don't think video games now, or frankly ever, had a sexism problem when it came to having a selection of good strong female characters within the actual video games themselves. That isn't to say there haven't also been bad female characters too, because of course, there have been bad characters of every creed in games too. But I don't believe there was ever a sexism problem in video games themselves.

However, the real people and real studios obviously have a big fucking problem. I think we can all agree on that. From sexual abuse reports at Riot games, to the insanity that has been thriving at Blizzard Entertainment, to the date rape from higher ups at Ubisoft. I don't think there is a major studio that hasn't had some form of sexist problems.

I think what really gets my goat about the article is that they make specific mention to Aloy being ugly, or at least not super model beautiful, as if a character can be amazing in every other possible way but if she is too attractive then she is to be dismissed as eye candy and nothing more. It sends a terrible message in that a woman can only be valuable if she is not exceptionally attractive and it demeans characters because it places judgement on them specifically on their appearance which is hypocritical of how the people behind this mentality want the world to judge women. Ideally you are to measure a woman's worth on what she can do, not on her physical appearance, yet this article directly comments on Aloy being a good example based off her appearance first citing " The game’s developers said they wanted to create a “believable and inspirational hero for everyone.” Because of course she can only inspire people if she is only a 7/10 and not a 10/10 obviously.

The author goes on to say " Characters like Aloy remain too rare among mainstream games. As a video-game enthusiast, I find it uncomfortable playing leading titles like Tomb Raider, Genshin Impact or Bayonetta, all of which feature female characters in skimpy outfits. " Which just goes to show you that the author has no idea what they are talking about and are commenting on these games based strictly on reputation and not actual reality. In the new Tomb Raider trilogy (which covers the last TEN YEARS of Lara Croft games minus a couple isometric niche games) Lara wears snow jackets, cargo pants, and at the very skimpiest a tank top. Genshin Impact might have some tight outfits but none of it seems too revealing based of what character images I could find (maybe optional outfits?). And Bayonetta....technically she's naked most of the game and is actually wearing her hair so this one I'll tentatively agree with.

But sexy characters do not equal sexism, nor sexist attitudes. Bayonetta uses her sexuallity as a weapon and is always in total control over it. She has all the power when in comes to that, so I don't believe that you could argue she comes from a sexist viewpoint.

I tried thinking about this and I can't really think of any real characters that are sexism fodder outside of hookers in GTA games that aren't real characters or the strippers in hitman. Side NPC's don't count as characters as they are extremely minor in the grand setting of the game.

Are there any main characters that you'd argue are just sexist representations?

 

[Gyrobot]

I agree with the article given how most of the responses came from weebs who think their idea that they are god's gift to having women in gaming. Yes we do a representation problem and Aloy does help deal with that by not falling to the usual traps of sacrificing dignity for popularity. How easy is it to give her a fur bikini and instant fans support the game

And a major problem some fans have with Genshin is the audience wants more revealing outfits, not removing every bit of fanservice from their outfit from panty shots to seeing visible navels and cleavage in outfit. Anime games suffer from the issue that it is still a male oriented market no matter how how hard you try to inject female fans to the game. The issue is always about encouraging the male fanbase accustomed to all the t&a to stop being horny convicts needing to be round up and thrown to jail

And to support the point, when was the last time we saw a cleavage heavy outfit in western comics and super hero films let alone mainstream games?

 

[Hawki]

I don't think video games now, or frankly ever, had a sexism problem when it came to having a selection of good strong female characters within the actual video games themselves. That isn't to say there haven't also been bad female characters too, because of course, there have been bad characters of every creed in games too. But I don't believe there was ever a sexism problem in video games themselves.

I...disagree.

Yes, you can find examples of "strong female characters" in games (God I hate that phrase), and go at least as far back as Samus Aran for that, but let's be honest, not only are they the exception until relatively recently, but while not always sexualized, how many games relied on the damsel in distress trope? How many games still have female characters that are bizzarely sexualized, even to the extent that it makes no sense? For instance, in RE4, why is Ada running around Spain in a red dress? I mean, I know the answer (it's because of RE2, and colour consistency), but it makes no sense in-universe.

I think things have gotten much better overall (frankly, stories in games in general have improved overall), but, well, looking at things as were, versus how they are...yeah. And even good female characters tend to be sexualized to an extent.

But sexy characters do not equal sexism, nor sexist attitudes.

I agree that that isn't the case per se, but it isn't all or nothing.

Again, looking at Resident Evil. Look at Revelations 1. Look at Jessica and Rachel, then compare them to the male characters. Jessica is wearing high heels in a combat zone, and has exposed leg, while Rachel's busts are on display. The male characters, on the other hand, are dressed sensibly, and even Jill has some cleavage showing. Or Quiet in Phantom Pain. I know there's a reason (supposedly) while she's dressed like a stripper, yet she's still, y'know, dressed like a stripper.

Or even then, it isn't just sexiness. Peach, for example, has spent over 30 years being little more than a trophy girl for Mario to rescue, bar some rare exceptions. I don't think Peach is particuarly attractive, but she's got the personality of a puddle, and simply exists for Mario to save her. Contrast that to characters like Zelda or Amy Rose - Zelda started off as a damsel in distress, but has morphed over the years to be much more capable, and much more interesting. Even Amy Rose has generally gotten better, going from her appearance in Sonic CD to...okay, not a perfect transition, but there's a reason why her Sonic Boom version is my favourite version, in part because she's not some lovestruck maniac anymore.

Even some of the best female characters in all of games aren't completely immune - Samus and Sarah Kerrigan still end up in high heels some of the time...

So, yeah. I think things are much better now than they were decades ago, and I'm lassie faire when it comes to it, but I can't pretend that the past was some bastion of equal representation for male and female characters.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I mean, you only found out Samus Aran was a girl after you beat Metroid well enough, then she showed up in her 8 bit bikini if you beat it the best. Then there's the whole Other M thing and the rocket heels.

Love Samus to bits but she's not exactly free of sexist bullshit happening at/around her.

And, quite frankly, if we can't use overtly, stupidly sexy female main characters as examples if "they use sex as a weapon", then yes, there were basically zero overtly sexist female characters in video games. Because most female characters in video games are some variation of Tit Ninja Using Sexiness As A Weapon.

 

[CriticalGaming]

how many games relied on the damsel in distress trope?

This is a story telling trope issue, not a sexualization of the characters issue. While there is argument to be made that the trope is overplayed, that itself isn't evidence against good female characters. I think the fundamental flaw in this line of thinking is, "Because some bad female characters exist, that means there aren't enough good female characters". Just because you can site examples of characters done badly, doesn't mean that there is a problem, it just means that those characters are shit. Shit characters do not erase the fact that there are far more good examples of characters of any gender than there are of bad characters.

A common example being Princess Peach, which many people forget that she was a hero in the Mario games as early as Mario 2, and in other iterations of Mario games she isn't really a character just a half baked creature who happens to exist in the background while Mario fights Bowser for reasons. Like Zelda there are quite a few games in which Peach kicks her own share of ass like Mario+Rabids and Smash.

Samus and Sarah Kerrigan still end up in high heels some of the time...

But how does that diminish them as characters. What you are talking about is personal astetic preference and that's fine, but personal bias doesn't mean the character is sexualized because of an outfit choice. Remember real world women like wearing dresses, like heels, like make-up and shit like that. People like to be attractive when they can and they like to look at other attractive people.

I don't think that designing characters in particular to be generally attractive is a problem. The male characters you pointed out in Resident Evil are attractive men. There are never male characters that aren't in six-pack ab shape, how come the principle doesn't apply there? Is it because it only counts when a man designs a female character? And when a man designs a male character it is "power fantasy".

Lara Croft for example does what she does and encounters many powerful good looking men, would that then be "female power fantasy" if so, what's the problem? Go to a book store and check out the romance section. Every book is a six foot tall, six pack wielding Hercules sweeping the woman off her feet.

I think there is a problem that a lot of people who write articles like this in that they have no abilitty to split the fantasy from the reality. Video games share something in common with comic books and pulp fiction stories in that there is a level of over-the-topness that needs to be embraced and a suspension of disbelief is expected on the part of the reader/viewer/player in order for the story and the content to take them to where the designers intend.

But too many of these writers put out articles like this clearly looking at video games (and whatever else) from the outside looking in. They don't get the context, they don't understand the characters nor the history because all they see is some box art and base their article on the social reaction generated from a superficial look at the product.

 

[CriticalGaming]

And, quite frankly, if we can't use overtly, stupidly sexy female main characters as examples if "they use sex as a weapon", then yes, there were basically zero overtly sexist female characters in video games. Because most female characters in video games are some variation of Tit Ninja Using Sexiness As A Weapon.

Sure, but I feel like you could find just as many examples of female characters that don't do that at all.

I said before that sure the female characters like what you mention here exist, but their existance doesn't negate the sheer volume of the other female characters that don't follow that trope.

 

[Agema]

But how does that diminish them as characters.

Because their portayals are not consistent with their roles or circumstances.

 

[BrawlMan]

I don't think video games now, or frankly ever, had a sexism problem when it came to having a selection of good strong female characters within the actual video games themselves.

​

That's because you don't pay attention enough, or only listen when you have no other choice. While things are better in some ways, the AAA especially, have many issues treating women differently from men. Then add in women of color who get even worse in circles such as Riot or Acti-Blizz, and don't bother trying to defend their dumb shit (That's not exactly directed at you CriticalGaming).

So, yeah. I think things are much better now than they were decades ago, and I'm lassie faire when it comes to it, but I can't pretend that the past was some bastion of equal representation for male and female characters.

This. Thank you so much.

The article ain't wrong either, and I already know why you posted this thread. You got your panties up in dat anal hole, because they are just telling the truth. Telling it like it is. You're upset, because is messes with your perception of reality, and you keep denying that gaming had issues treating those of different race, religion, gender/sex, with disrespect or without humanity. The article "got in your face", and destroyed your nostalgia for "better days". Deal with it, because reality can be a mean mother-fucker. It takes a strong person to deny what's right in front of them. That just makes the pimp/biatch slap to reality the worse you deny, or choose to live in camp fantasy land.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I want someone to explain to me how Ivy Valentine puts this outfit on in the morning.

Answer: Nobody thought that far. "Tits and ass" and "mommy dominatrix" were the extent of her design philsophy, meant to appeal to the "pocket-mining demographic".

At least Quiet doesn't have as much trouble getting dressed.

Are a bikini and torn stockings the best gear to wear in a combat zone? Who cares? "She breathes through her skin"- let us see those tits!

And for a much more recent (though admittedly less egregious, given the setting) example, there's always Step On Me Tall Vampire Lady.

Large and in charge, with a boob window that you could use as a regulation NBA hoop (it's even practically the proper height). Was a cardigan really out of the question?

But sexy characters do not equal sexism, nor sexist attitudes.

Not necessarily, but very often they go hand-in-hand. Just witness the absolute uproar there was when Tifa Lockhart's bust size appeared to be reduced in the FFVII remake- almost instantly there were complaints of "SJWs ruining our games", as if getting a better bra made Tifa a worse character. And this bleeds over to the greater problems in the industry; the frat bros who just want more tits and ass in games go into the industry, and foment an atmosphere hostile to anything that might get in the way of more tits and ass.

Sexy characters are not inherently the problem. Characters that exist to be sexy above all else are more of an issue.

 

[BrawlMan]

Not necessarily, but very often they go hand-in-hand. Just witness the absolute uproar there was when Tifa Lockhart's bust size appeared to be reduced in the FFVII remake- almost instantly there were complaints of "SJWs ruining our games", as if getting a better bra made Tifa a worse character.

Houseman.

And this bleeds over to the greater problems in the industry; the frat bros who just want more tits and ass in games go into the industry, and foment an atmosphere hostile to anything that might get in the way of more tits and ass.

Those frat bros are the ones constantly claimed COD is the only way to, yet they almost never buy anything that imitated COD. Now these asshoel want everything to be Fornite or have BR mode. Fuck these pendejos.

Characters that exist to be sexy above all else are more of an issue.

Exactly.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Sure, but I feel like you could find just as many examples of female characters that don't do that at all.

I said before that sure the female characters like what you mention here exist, but their existance doesn't negate the sheer volume of the other female characters that don't follow that trope.

The "sheer volume" is the same half dozen or so 30 year old examples that always pop up that tended to be heavily sexualized in later installments.

Fuck's sake, Lara Croft had a Playboy spread.

Remember real world women like wearing dresses, like heels, like make-up and shit like that. People like to be attractive when they can and they like to look at other attractive people.

This is not the real world and video game characters do not dress themselves.

I don't think that designing characters in particular to be generally attractive is a problem. The male characters you pointed out in Resident Evil are attractive men. There are never male characters that aren't in six-pack ab shape, how come the principle doesn't apply there? Is it because it only counts when a man designs a female character? And when a man designs a male character it is "power fantasy".

Lara Croft for example does what she does and encounters many powerful good looking men, would that then be "female power fantasy" if so, what's the problem? Go to a book store and check out the romance section. Every book is a six foot tall, six pack wielding Hercules sweeping the woman off her feet.

I unironically and whole heartedly request that you go to the romance section of a book store and actually read some of the top rated romance books. That would help you figure out why people tend to dismiss this argument entirely.

But too many of these writers put out articles like this clearly looking at video games (and whatever else) from the outside looking in. They don't get the context, they don't understand the characters nor the history because all they see is some box art and base their article on the social reaction generated from a superficial look at the product.

So, how many romance novels have you read?

 

[Hades]

I think what really gets my goat about the article is that they make specific mention to Aloy being ugly

I never really got that one. I hear detractors often say that as well as this guy but she always struck me as perfectly fine. Cute even.

 

[Fallen Soldier]

I want someone to explain to me how Ivy Valentine puts this outfit on in the morning.

Answer: Nobody thought that far. "Tits and ass" and "mommy dominatrix" were the extent of her design philsophy, meant to appeal to the "pocket-mining demographic".

At least Quiet doesn't have as much trouble getting dressed.

Are a bikini and torn stockings the best gear to wear in a combat zone? Who cares? "She breathes through her skin"- let us see those tits!

And for a much more recent (though admittedly less egregious, given the setting) example, there's always Step On Me Tall Vampire Lady.

Large and in charge, with a boob window that you could use as a regulation NBA hoop (it's even practically the proper height). Was a cardigan really out of the question?


Not necessarily, but very often they go hand-in-hand. Just witness the absolute uproar there was when Tifa Lockhart's bust size appeared to be reduced in the FFVII remake- almost instantly there were complaints of "SJWs ruining our games", as if getting a better bra made Tifa a worse character. And this bleeds over to the greater problems in the industry; the frat bros who just want more tits and ass in games go into the industry, and foment an atmosphere hostile to anything that might get in the way of more tits and ass.

Sexy characters are not inherently the problem. Characters that exist to be sexy above all else are more of an issue.

I mean she won the best character award in a psn blog, but she only in the game for like two to three hours. There’s nothing appealing about her except her design.

 

[CriticalGaming]

The "sheer volume" is the same half dozen or so 30 year old examples that always pop up that tended to be heavily sexualized in later installments

So, how many romance novels have you read?

To my knowledge, just Twilight. And the Anita Blake series sort of. And the Carpathian series. And a couple other vampire novels by J.R.Ward.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Not necessarily, but very often they go hand-in-hand. Just witness the absolute uproar there was when Tifa Lockhart's bust size appeared to be reduced in the FFVII remake- almost instantly there were complaints of "SJWs ruining our games", as if getting a better bra made Tifa a worse character.

This argument was fucking dumb. Tifa wasn't "nerfed" she was just rendered in a realistic way versus her jumble of polygons from the OG game. Hell her tits are bigger in the Remake than they are in both Advent Children AND all those weird Disidia games. Tifa's character design was never meant to have comically impossible boobs. Some people complain for the sake of it....(ooooh the irony there).

 

[Bedinsis]

Not necessarily, but very often they go hand-in-hand. Just witness the absolute uproar there was when Tifa Lockhart's bust size appeared to be reduced in the FFVII remake- almost instantly there were complaints of "SJWs ruining our games", as if getting a better bra made Tifa a worse character. And this bleeds over to the greater problems in the industry; the frat bros who just want more tits and ass in games go into the industry, and foment an atmosphere hostile to anything that might get in the way of more tits and ass.

I might be getting hung up on nothing, but: there is plenty enough of sexism present in geek circles without needing to scapegoat frat bros.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

To my knowledge, just Twilight. And the Anita Blake series sort of. And the Carpathian series. And a couple other vampire novels by J.R.Ward.

I am suddenly not shocked by you opinions regarding romance novels, holy shit.

It'd be like your only exposure to Sci-Fi is videogame tie in novels

Also, cute video, but the question wasn't "volume of female characters", plus most of those aren't main characters and frequently end up dead in short order, plus a huge chunk of those characters are sexualized, plus a fair number are media cross-over characters. Hatsune Miku and Dragonball's Pan? That's a fucking stretch. Like, shit dude. I played most of those JRPGs. Love it included Ayla and her fur-kini. Hell, the video you posted as backup even made a tit-ninja joke in it. Kinda turns out to be absurdly common.

 

[BrawlMan]

I might be getting hung up on nothing, but: there is plenty enough of sexism present in geek circles without needing to scapegoat frat bros.

True, but frat boys were the loudest about it during the 7th generation at the time.

 

[Hawki]

This is a story telling trope issue, not a sexualization of the characters issue. While there is argument to be made that the trope is overplayed, that itself isn't evidence against good female characters.

Except the trope is almost always used for female characters. It's very rare to find a "dude in distress."

The trope isn't an argument against good female characters existing, of course not, but the characters who end up being the damsel are rarely fleshed out, at least while still being the damsel. As I said above, characters like Zelda and Amy Rose started off as damsels in distress, but have thankfully transcended it.

I think the fundamental flaw in this line of thinking is, "Because some bad female characters exist, that means there aren't enough good female characters".

But no-one's saying that. At least not here.

I can't define what "enough" is, because I don't have the time or inclination to count every female and male character. As I said, I'm lassie faire when it comes to this. But on average, I would maintain that female characters are better these days than they were decades ago. Which corresponds to games in general being better written as well.

Just because you can site examples of characters done badly, doesn't mean that there is a problem, it just means that those characters are shit. Shit characters do not erase the fact that there are far more good examples of characters of any gender than there are of bad characters.

I don't think there's too much of a problem now, believe it or not. Like I said, things are better now. Not perfect, but better.

A common example being Princess Peach, which many people forget that she was a hero in the Mario games as early as Mario 2, and in other iterations of Mario games she isn't really a character just a half baked creature who happens to exist in the background while Mario fights Bowser for reasons. Like Zelda there are quite a few games in which Peach kicks her own share of ass like Mario+Rabids and Smash.

These are very much exceptions to the rule, however. Yes, Peach has been a hero a few times, but in mainline entries, she's capture fodder. Contrast this to Zelda, who's steadily improved in mainline entries.

Peach, for instance, started off as a damsel in distress, and is still a damsel in distress in Super Mario Odyssey. Zelda, on the other hand, started off in a damsel in distress, whereas by Breath of the Wild, is a more capable, more fleshed out character, and I'd say she was one as early as Ocarina of Time. It certainly helps that Legend of Zelda has more focus on story than Mario, but even so...

But how does that diminish them as characters. What you are talking about is personal astetic preference and that's fine, but personal bias doesn't mean the character is sexualized because of an outfit choice. Remember real world women like wearing dresses, like heels, like make-up and shit like that. People like to be attractive when they can and they like to look at other attractive people.

It's not the aesthetics per se, it's the circumstances.

If we're talking about Samus and Kerrigan specifically, not too much. Samus's high heels are only with the zero suit and that's fluctuated over time. Kerrigan having 'biological high heels' in SC2 is pretty minor, and you'll only see them if you're squinting. However, back to Resident Evil - why is Jessica, a BSAA agent, wearing high heels into a combat zone? Why is Ada Wong, a highly trained spy, wearing a red dress in rural Spain that she knows is infested by ganados? I'm not complaining about these characters wearing these clothes per se - Ada wearing a red dress in a ball? Sure. Go for it. She looks highly attractive in it. But why the hell is she going into a life or death situation in high heels? It would be like Leon going on the mission in a tuxedo.

I don't think that designing characters in particular to be generally attractive is a problem. The male characters you pointed out in Resident Evil are attractive men. There are never male characters that aren't in six-pack ab shape, how come the principle doesn't apply there? Is it because it only counts when a man designs a female character? And when a man designs a male character it is "power fantasy".

Again, compare and contrast. The men in RE may be attractive (I guess? At times? Steve sure as hell isn't) but what they're wearing is suited for the task at hand. The women? Not always.

I should point out that RE has actually got this right more often than not. RE1 had Jill and Rebecca for instance, both of whom are decked out in police gear like their male counterparts. RE2 had Claire and Ada in civilian clothing, but that isn't an issue either, since it fits the circumstances. Even RE6 did this better - there's some sexualization for Sherry, Helena, and Ada, but none of them look out of place. However, we still have Jill in a tube top in RE3, and Ada in a red dress in RE4, and as much as I like seeing tube top Jill, let's be honest, her attire is for my sake more than hers (the RE3make actually did this better - Jill's highly attractive, but less sexualized, so win-win).

Lara Croft for example does what she does and encounters many powerful good looking men, would that then be "female power fantasy" if so, what's the problem? Go to a book store and check out the romance section. Every book is a six foot tall, six pack wielding Hercules sweeping the woman off her feet.

I work in libraries, I see plenty of romance books. You don't have to tell me how silly their covers are. And that's for both men and women.

As for Lara Croft, let's be honest, Lara was on Playboy for a reason. However, I can't comment on Lara too much, since I've never played the Tomb Raider games, but as far as I can tell, the sexualization aspect was there, just toned down as of the Survivour Timeline.

I think there is a problem that a lot of people who write articles like this in that they have no abilitty to split the fantasy from the reality. Video games share something in common with comic books and pulp fiction stories in that there is a level of over-the-topness that needs to be embraced and a suspension of disbelief is expected on the part of the reader/viewer/player in order for the story and the content to take them to where the designers intend.

I disagree. Games can be like comic books and pulp fiction, but they can also be like other things as well. I think they can be 'high' and 'low' art. Something like Sunset Overdrive may take inspiration from comic books, something like Spec Ops: The Line is adapting 'Heart of Darkness.'

But too many of these writers put out articles like this clearly looking at video games (and whatever else) from the outside looking in. They don't get the context, they don't understand the characters nor the history because all they see is some box art and base their article on the social reaction generated from a superficial look at the product.

So, I agree that's true for some of them, but again, I'll be fair - I don't think female characters have had as good a run as male ones in games. Things are better nowadays, sure. But I can't deny history.

 

[CriticalGaming]

While things are better in some ways, the AAA especially, have many issues treating women differently from men

In what way?

Even if you want to talk about differences in men and women are treated in terms of sexualization, you then have to find a way to equate the difference between how men are found sexy, versus how women are found sexy. Look at the hottest men alive lists on any number of Cosmo magazines and you'll see the likes of Chris Hemsworth, Ryan Reynolds, Hugh Jackman etc etc, all men with "superhero" bodies. Looking at that, most video game men are created in much the same image right. Not to mention men are supposed to be rough and tough and strong and fearless and that's what traditionally makes them attractive.

I just think the argument in that sense works both ways, yet there is this movement of bullshit that demands that we as gamers view ONE of these sides of the sexes as wrong and I don't like that.

We want more Abby's from TLOU2 in our games, then I want more Dwight Shroots as my male heroes. Let's diminish it on both sides and I'd be happy to call it fair. More donut Nathan Drakes!