Another thread about sexism in video games.

[Dreiko]

You pointed out less than .001% of games

And, as people have done previously in this thread, there are WAY more negative representations

You know what was really cool about Horizon? Sometimes you shot a bandit, there was a female yelp at being shot. I think a negative stereotype of men is that they're the ones being disposable henchmen. Horizon did it different.... but that doesn't wipe away the decades of men being treated that way. Nor is that stereotype magically non-existant in current games based on Hoizon.

Hell, I pointed this out to people and I got a comment to the tune of, "You want to shoot girls?"

Some people's concept of lack of sexism is tantamount to benevolent sexism, so I really don't know which side of the debate the person worrying about you shooting girls would fall on. What I do know is that a lot more people would mind if you groped a woman than if you shot her in a game like Horizon (even if the game also allowed you to grope men too), and that's the other side of the same coin you're describing.

People think you viscerally are doing something you wanna do in reality in that case, but they're able to see the shooting as something nobody normal would ever wanna do in real life so they wave away the concern of people being shadowy serial killers, plotting while they play games.

To me, implying what in not as many words is "so you wanna sexually assault women?" is not at all different form the comments you were met with, but this sort of deranged presumption is met with respectful consideration if not fawning approval, and that's all kinds of insane.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Some people's concept of lack of sexism is tantamount to benevolent sexism, so I really don't know which side of the debate the person worrying about you shooting girls would fall on. What I do know is that a lot more people would mind if you groped a woman than if you shot her in a game like Horizon (even if the game also allowed you to grope men too), and that's the other side of the same coin you're describing.

People think you viscerally are doing something you wanna do in reality in that case, but they're able to see the shooting as something nobody normal would ever wanna do in real life so they wave away the concern of people being shadowy serial killers, plotting while they play games.

To me, implying what in not as many words is "so you wanna sexually assault women?" is not at all different form the comments you were met with, but this sort of deranged presumption is met with respectful consideration if not fawning approval, and that's all kinds of insane.

The concept you're looking for is "easily inimitable violence": aka, the concept that something outlandish being more okay than something mundane and common-place by virtue of the former being wildly unlikely. Same reason all those kids cartoons have lasers and bazookas and time bombs but not a whole lot of punching or regular firearms. Getting techno-arrowed into oblivion isn't something that happens in everyday life, but groping can be shockingly common

Add that to the fact that, you know, violencing a bandit solves the bandit problem, but groping a bandit...uh, doesn't, unless you're playing a very specific kind of porn game.

 

[bluegate]

Add that to the fact that, you know, violencing a bandit solves the bandit problem, but groping a bandit...uh, doesn't, unless you're playing a very specific kind of porn game.

In before Dreiko writes up how narratively it's totally justified and actually a great and innovative gameplay element in some obscure game he once played.

 

[Dreiko]

The concept you're looking for is "easily inimitable violence": aka, the concept that something outlandish being more okay than something mundane and common-place by virtue of the former being wildly unlikely. Same reason all those kids cartoons have lasers and bazookas and time bombs but not a whole lot of punching or regular firearms. Getting techno-arrowed into oblivion isn't something that happens in everyday life, but groping can be shockingly common

Add that to the fact that, you know, violencing a bandit solves the bandit problem, but groping a bandit...uh, doesn't, unless you're playing a very specific kind of porn game.

I mean, I remember people complaining about the coyote in loony toons being met with too much violence too, and he had like, anvils fall on his head and was blown up by tnt and stuff.


And hey since when is an ends justify the means approach even considered here? Like, you can write that in some breathes through her skin way and have groping stop bandits too but people won't really care about that reasoning, and it's about as absurdist as a coyote being run over by a train.

And even without that you're still like, advocating for vigilante violence or something like that which is not a good thing to fantasize about either if we are to just go by the standard of "person play game, therefore person must wanna enact videogame acts in real life".


Like, if you have insanely absurdist fantasy groping that uses magic and tentacles, that is still seen as a hint to plain commonplace real life groping, and not just absurdist comedy in the same way weird odd violence is.

In before Dreiko writes up how narratively it's totally justified and actually a great and innovative gameplay element in some obscure game he once played.

I'm sure I could come up with a bunch of those, but his initial comment just reminded me of Akiba's Trip which is a game about martial arts fighting against vampires, where you strip em and let the sun burn em off, and you do this to both men and women. Yet the game would be seen as being sexist for this, despite you doing it to men too.

And it's really not that obscure, they even remade and ported the original game which used to be JP only a while ago.




Now, I just think this is hilarious and cool, but feel free to be offended:

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

See, the argument is insane but I can actually follow the logic

And hey since when is an ends justify the means approach even considered here? Like, you can write that in some breathes through her skin way and have groping stop bandits too but people won't really care about that reasoning, and it's about as absurdist as a coyote being run over by a train.

Because it's dumb as shit.

And even without that you're still like, advocating for vigilante violence or something like that which is not a good thing to fantasize about either if we are to just go by the standard of "person play game, therefore person must wanna enact videogame acts in real life".

It's not vigilante violence if there's no legitimate authority.

Like, if you have insanely absurdist fantasy groping that uses magic and tentacles, that is still seen as a hint to plain commonplace real life groping, and not just absurdist comedy in the same way weird odd violence is.

What can I say, the 4 mission sequence in Senran Kagura: Estival Versus where one of the high school girls used ninja magic (instead of a roofie) to paralyze her high school crush and sexually assault her was gross to play through. I get that it was *trying* to be funny and Make A Point, but man, they did it badly. If that makes me a "prude", then so be it

I'm sure I could come up with a bunch of those, but his initial comment just reminded me of Akiba's Trip which is a game about martial arts fighting against vampires, where you strip em and let the sun burn em off, and you do this to both men and women. Yet the game would be seen as being sexist for this, despite you doing it to men too.

And it's really not that obscure, they even remade and ported the original game which used to be JP only a while ago.

Now, I just think this is hilarious and cool, but feel free to be offended:

What's funny about this argument is that you're assuming offense based on basically nothing. Like, sure: this Destructiod Review mentions some skeevy shit in the game, but it's not the bog-standard stripping, it's the weird incesty bit and a maybe sex-trafficking

Of course, even a more inherently friendly site (Niche Gamer) brings up the incest thing, so...

Like, I'm not gonna go through every critic review to grievance count for sexism because I just don't care that much, but two random examples and I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Dreiko]

Because it's dumb as shit.

Okay?

Dumb =/= sexist, or misogynistic or what have you.

It's not vigilante violence if there's no legitimate authority.

See, we never take into account the fictional context when we impose motives on gamers. We don't go "if so and so was the makeup of reality, THEN, they'd do this or that because that's what they like to do in games", we juxtapose it on our real life status quo. Which is why it makes no sense.

What can I say, the 4 mission sequence in Senran Kagura: Estival Versus where one of the high school girls used ninja magic (instead of a roofie) to paralyze her high school crush and sexually assault her was gross to play through. I get that it was *trying* to be funny and Make A Point, but man, they did it badly. If that makes me a "prude", then so be it

I never played Estival, I kinda felt the writing wane a bit more with Shinovi Versus, and I guess I didn't like the newcomers as much. For me the highlight of the SK series was Burst on the 3ds cause they were all really well written which I did not expect it, I went in for the 3D hometown and stayed for the story, even cleared all the missions in S and frenzy rank too lol. So yeah, you can like, not play a game without thinking it or those who do as promoting some sort of social evil or not minding it being censored lol.

What's funny about this argument is that you're assuming offense based on basically nothing. Like, sure: this Destructiod Review mentions some skeevy shit in the game, but it's not the bog-standard stripping, it's the weird incesty bit and a maybe sex-trafficking

Of course, even a more inherently friendly site (Niche Gamer) brings up the incest thing, so...

Like, I'm not gonna go through every critic review to grievance count for sexism because I just don't care that much, but two random examples and I'm just not seeing it.

No no, I am assuming people will find it funny, which is my point. This sort of thing is the thing people are calling sexist without really thinking about it or looking at it, and once they do they will realize it's harmless. And I'm not talking about any sort of "official reviewer" or anything of that sort, god knows I've not read one of those in many years. Just, the sort of people who'd write stuff like in the OP's article are the sorts of folk who'd kneejerk call something like Akiba's trip sexist without looking at it.

Oh and the little sister stuff in that game is a joke making fun OF the people into incest. Since your sister is constantly hitting on you and you're just weirded out by her throughout the entire game. It's basically a recurring gag of incest being weird. Not hot or desirable. But people who are just kneejerky about the theme in and of itself being referenced will not grasp that. (and I seriously do not remember anything related to prostitution at all in that game, but I played it quite a few years ago so if it was a very minor story point I could have forgotten)

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Okay?

Dumb =/= sexist, or misogynistic or what have you.

It's a two-fer: most of the blatantly sexist stuff in the gaming sphere is fantastically stupid. Generally because if you aren't being stupid then you tend not to do blatantly sexist stuff like titillating snipers or rocket powered high heels

See, we never take into account the fictional context when we impose motives on gamers. We don't go "if so and so was the makeup of reality, THEN, they'd do this or that because that's what they like to do in games", we juxtapose it on our real life status quo. Which is why it makes no sense.

I mean yeah? Tit-ninjas tend to be stupid, trying to justify Quiet's bikini and fishnets with skin breathing is hilariously pathetic, and full plate turning into metal bikinis is just bizarre

I never played Estival, I kinda felt the writing wane a bit more with Shinovi Versus, and I guess I didn't like the newcomers as much. For me the highlight of the SK series was Burst on the 3ds cause they were all really well written which I did not expect it, I went in for the 3D hometown and stayed for the story, even cleared all the missions in S and frenzy rank too lol. So yeah, you can like, not play a game without thinking it or those who do as promoting some sort of social evil or not minding it being censored lol.

Likewise you can think things are bad without proclaiming them anathema to society.

No no, I am assuming people will find it funny, which is my point. This sort of thing is the thing people are calling sexist without really thinking about it or looking at it, and once they do they will realize it's harmless. And I'm not talking about any sort of "official reviewer" or anything of that sort, god knows I've not read one of those in many years. Just, the sort of people who'd write stuff like in the OP's article are the sorts of folk who'd kneejerk call something like Akiba's trip sexist without looking at it.

So, that thing that basically didn't happen would definitely happen?

Oh and the little sister stuff in that game is a joke making fun OF the people into incest. Since your sister is constantly hitting on you and you're just weirded out by her throughout the entire game. It's basically a recurring gag of incest being weird. Not hot or desirable. But people who are just kneejerky about the theme in and of itself being referenced will not grasp that.

I dunno what to tell you man, even the otaku friendly source brought up the incest thing. If it was a joke it was poorly made

 

[Dreiko]

It's a two-fer: most of the blatantly sexist stuff in the gaming sphere is fantastically stupid. Generally because if you aren't being stupid then you tend not to do blatantly sexist stuff like titillating snipers or rocket powered high heels
I mean yeah? Tit-ninjas tend to be stupid, trying to justify Quiet's bikini and fishnets with skin breathing is hilariously pathetic, and full plate turning into metal bikinis is just bizarre
Likewise you can think things are bad without proclaiming them anathema to society.
So, that thing that basically didn't happen would definitely happen?
View attachment 5271


I dunno what to tell you man, even the otaku friendly source brought up the incest thing. If it was a joke it was poorly made

In my head, the dumb sexist stuff is more Duke Nukem and less random anime fanservice silliness. And people aren't calling games bad when they call them as sexist. That's a loaded assertion. You can call em bad all you want. Hell in my opinion a lot of those are medicore but fun once in a while. The difference is I'm not trying to be preachy about my view to folks who like em more than I do lol.


And just because a source is otaku friendly doesn't mean that, as a rule, professional reviewers stopped sucking. They likely just didn't grasp the joke. It'd be the rule, not the exception. Hell, you have whole websites like Anime News Network which is one of the oldest and more heavily otaku sites ever spewing crazy ignorant takes about sexism and anime stuff, so just being otaku friendly doesn't mean you're not an sjw who puts other things before anime. (also I generally don't know much about niche gamer, though my impression of them is that they're more right wing reactionaries, I remember them popping up back during GG or something)

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

In my head, the dumb sexist stuff is more Duke Nukem and less random anime fanservice silliness. And people aren't calling games bad when they call them as sexist. That's a loaded assertion. You can call em bad all you want. Hell in my opinion a lot of those are medicore but fun once in a while. The difference is I'm not trying to be preachy about my view to folks who like em more than I do lol.


And just because a source is otaku friendly doesn't mean that, as a rule, professional reviewers stopped sucking. They likely just didn't grasp the joke. It'd be the rule, not the exception. Hell, you have whole websites like Anime News Network which is one of the oldest and more heavily otaku sites ever spewing crazy ignorant takes about sexism and anime stuff, so just being otaku friendly doesn't mean you're not an sjw who puts other things before anime.

Sorry man, but this just reads as "keep your bad opinions to yourself"

Because you're more right than you know: when people are calling (aspects) of games sexist, they aren't calling games bad. Oftentimes they aren't even calling the specific game they have issues with bad. Wish you'd actually start understanding that bit.

 

[Dreiko]

Sorry man, but this just reads as "keep your bad opinions to yourself"

Because you're more right than you know: when people are calling (aspects) of games sexist, they aren't calling games bad. Oftentimes they aren't even calling the specific game they have issues with bad. Wish you'd actually start understanding that bit.

Calling em sexist is tantamount to the christian concept of Sin in the modern culture. It's worse than calling em bad, it's like calling em politically dangerous. When in fact, what folks are really saying is that this or that element is not to their taste, which used to be what people would base calling a game bad on. But again, people like to overly load their verbiage nowadays.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Calling em sexist is tantamount to the christian concept of Sin in the modern culture. It's worse than calling em bad, it's like calling em politically dangerous. When in fact, what folks are really saying is that this or that element is not to their taste, which used to be what people would base calling a game bad on. But again, people like to overly load their verbiage nowadays.

You don't say

 

[Worgen]

Oh my god! It's a woman! In a game! Sexism destroyed!

Actually, Dwarvenhobbie accidently makes a good point. When do we know that this isn't an issue anymore? Cause we are certainly seen less of the overly sexualized female characters/outfits/rescue props. When do we reach the point where we can say "good enough" and allow sexy armor in some games and normal outfits in others?

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

You pointed out less than .001% of games

Which is still 75% more than the author mentioned or even acknowledged

And, as people have done previously in this thread, there are WAY more negative representations

No really it's just what people can easily focus on and it's about framing a lot of the time it's easy to frame something.

E.G.
A Book series made into a film series where a female lead is repeatedly beaten and at one stage buried alive by her estranged father and raped by her state appointed conservator.

Would you say that's a book series that was held up as a sign of female empowerment?

You know what was really cool about Horizon? Sometimes you shot a bandit, there was a female yelp at being shot. I think a negative stereotype of men is that they're the ones being disposable henchmen. Horizon did it different.... but that doesn't wipe away the decades of men being treated that way. Nor is that stereotype magically non-existant in current games based on Hoizon.

Hell, I pointed this out to people and I got a comment to the tune of, "You want to shoot girls?"

Didn't they have female mooks in Assassins Creed Syndicate?

Also there was a minor but noticeable pushback in some areas about female enemies in games with the most recent one being an author objecting to people shooting women soldiers and hearing their cries of pain in Battlefield V because the argument was it was actually letting misogynists act out sick ideas on digital women.

(I will say I'm fine with female mooks and enemies being a thing, It was in Timesplitters 2 or 3 actually with male and female variants of the henchmen characters etc.)

 

[BrawlMan]

Actually, Dwarvenhobbie accidently makes a good point. When do we know that this isn't an issue anymore? Cause we are certainly seen less of the overly sexualized female characters/outfits/rescue props. When do we reach the point where we can say "good enough" and allow sexy armor in some games and normal outfits in others?

The answer to that is don't get complacent. Dwarvenhobble's "point" is nothing more than a deflection and a cop out answer. While it's true that we see more women sensibly dressed, it can still happen. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the digital women as much as the real life women that work within the industry. The ones that have been sexually harassed, abused, or be given over/worse pay because they were born without a penis. Those should be the main concern. Because even though these companies are going through their PR disasters, they're still harassment happening within the industry that needs to be snuffed out and expose those who act like cowards.

 

[Gyrobot]

Actually, Dwarvenhobbie accidently makes a good point. When do we know that this isn't an issue anymore? Cause we are certainly seen less of the overly sexualized female characters/outfits/rescue props. When do we reach the point where we can say "good enough" and allow sexy armor in some games and normal outfits in others?

You need devs willing to take risks and is of the AAA sector in the states. To take an example is to look at Ready or Not and how they are willing to risk legal trouble and losing payment processors to make a school shooting map. This is absolutely anathema to the mind of weak willed devs who have the chops to make the games and a Tantalusian task for those who want to make such a game but can't because they believe they will get immediate cancelled for doing so and lives in perpetual fear

And remember they are New Zealand devs who had one of the biggest crackdowns on depiction of violence after the Christchurch shooting.

Today's game dev industry is absolutely risk averse and uncertainty is the killer of companies

 

[CriticalGaming]

When do we reach the point where we can say "good enough" and allow sexy armor in some games and normal outfits in others?

Never. The goal post will always be moved to account for some other injustice. There are shitloads of non-sexuallized women throughout gaming history, but they don't count if they aren't the main character and star of the show. So you point out characters now coming out that don't have that problem, and it's not good enough because men still dominate the main character space.

Nobody who believes this is a problem is looking for a completion point. They are always looking for problems and will say whatever they need to say in order to make sure there is always a problem.

 

[Worgen]

The answer to that is don't get complacent. Dwarvenhobble, hobbles "point" is nothing more than a deflection and a cop out answer. While it's true that we see more women sensibly dressed, it can still happen. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the digital women as much as the real life women that work within the industry. The ones that have been sexually harassed, abused, or be given over/worse pay because they were born without a penis. Those should be the main concern. Because even though these companies are going through their PR disasters, they're still harassment happening within the industry that needs to be snuffed out and expose those who act like cowards.

Oh yeah, its a complete copout. But, when discussion of sexist outfits and such in games tend to include outfits from games 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago, how much if it is a current issue and how much is baggage from the past? But yeah, we do need to avoid complacency since all the issues we have can easily come back without some vigilance.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Hell, most of those games are *very new*, relatively speaking.

So when author Tae Kim says (paraphrased) "Aloy represents change for the better", he's not wrong

Also, you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel if you're bringing up Malice. Not enough non-sexy rep out there that you have to find a 5/10 development hell platformer from the xbox PS2?
View attachment 5270

Aloy is a change that's already happened.

Also sorry I didn't spend hours on the meme correctly representing games throughout history from games like: Urban Chaos to Vampire Rain also included.

Malice is there because for some odd reason its one stuck in my memory as existing, partly I think because I heard the development history of the game and how it was meant to be some AAA game but ran into trouble and they had to quickly bundle together just something to release.

If you insist I could list some more games:

Urban Chaos
Vampire Rain
Saints Row Gat out of Hell
Dishonoured 2
Portal & Portal 2
Gears of War 5
Silent Hill 3
Perfect Dark
Darksiders 3
Recore
Uncharted Lost Legacy
2 more Life is Strange games
American McGee's Alice series
The Dreamfall Franchise
Syberia 1-3
The Borderlands Franchise
Most of Quantic Dreams games (yes they really do count even if they're a bit David Cage weird)
Wet
Some of the Broken Sword series
Hydrophobia
Amy
Jet Set Radio 2 & 3
Excalibur 2555AD (PS1 launch title)

(To be clear I'm selecting games that are not not just choose your own / make your own lead and avoiding multiplayer vs games here and only well known or popular or at least well recognised games that were AAA or meant to be that level or at least AA or close to it)

If you want me to go real deep video game stuff there's a whole genre on Steam (and no it's not adult games) with 75% female protagonists in it but it's not seen as a AAA mainstream genre despite the fact you'll probably find boxed copies of some of the games being sold in places like Walmart etc.

If you want to argue the top AAA games or planned to be that level have lacked female leads comparatively I'd have to agree but the moment you look slightly below that surface you have a ton of indie games like:

Transistor
Kathy Rain
Claire
Ticket to Earth
No-Yo
Broken Age
Giana Sisters
Unrest
The Path
Gone Home
Sunset
Ark
Beyond Eyes
Bleed
Whispering Willows
Little Dew
and many more

 

[Worgen]

You need devs willing to take risks and is of the AAA sector in the states. To take an example is to look at Ready or Not and how they are willing to risk legal trouble and losing payment processors to make a school shooting map. This is absolutely anathema to the mind of weak willed devs who have the chops to make the games and a Tantalusian task for those who want to make such a game but can't because they believe they will get immediate cancelled for doing so and lives in perpetual fear

And remember they are New Zealand devs who had one of the biggest crackdowns on depiction of violence after the Christchurch shooting.

Today's game dev industry is absolutely risk averse and uncertainty is the killer of companies

A. thats unrelated to my point.
B. booby armor is hardly taking risks
C. Not really

Never. The goal post will always be moved to account for some other injustice. There are shitloads of non-sexuallized women throughout gaming history, but they don't count if they aren't the main character and star of the show. So you point out characters now coming out that don't have that problem, and it's not good enough because men still dominate the main character space.

Nobody who believes this is a problem is looking for a completion point. They are always looking for problems and will say whatever they need to say in order to make sure there is always a problem.

Wrong. I think this is a problem, but its a problem that can be solved. We just have to be able to identify if its still a problem, if someone is dredging up games from 20 years ago to make a point that its still an issue instead of giving historical context for their argument then they are making a bad argument, but if they point out examples from the last few years where is happening then its still probably an issue.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

The answer to that is don't get complacent. Dwarvenhobble's "point" is nothing more than a deflection and a cop out answer. While it's true that we see more women sensibly dressed, it can still happen. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the digital women as much as the real life women that work within the industry. The ones that have been sexually harassed, abused, or be given over/worse pay because they were born without a penis. Those should be the main concern. Because even though these companies are going through their PR disasters, they're still harassment happening within the industry that needs to be snuffed out and expose those who act like cowards.

Um I've been saying for quite a while in other threads that a lot of the for lack of a better term virtue signalling has been used to deflect from or cover up actual abuses in the industry..........

Oh yeah, its a complete copout. But, when discussion of sexist outfits and such in games tend to include outfits from games 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago, how much if it is a current issue and how much is baggage from the past? But yeah, we do need to avoid complacency since all the issues we have can easily come back without some vigilance.

In a number of cases it's even optional extra costumes not their main ones either.
There's actually some people on twitter getting upset and yelling that gaming is sexist and a problem because of mods for games an yelling how somehow companies should be working to make sure people can't mod in sexy mods or getting mad because there aren't people making sexy male character mods. Hell just from my limted experience from communities around fanwork I got to watch people being yelled at because they were doing female character stuff only and the posters etc wanted male character content.