Indiana Senate Bill 167: Holy crap, what a mess.

tstorm823

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Communism is a political ideology (among other things).

If you're going to split hairs about holding an ideology against holding an "affiliation", that'd be weak.
In regular conversation, I'd agree with you that it's splitting hairs, but we're talking about a bill aiming to become law. Precise language is very important in laws. This bill doesn't say anything about political beliefs or ideology, only affiliation, which is to say they can still teach that certain ideologies are immoral, they can't say being connected to a political party makes you inferior. Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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In regular conversation, I'd agree with you that it's splitting hairs, but we're talking about a bill aiming to become law. Precise language is very important in laws. This bill doesn't say anything about political beliefs or ideology, only affiliation, which is to say they can still teach that certain ideologies are immoral, they can't say being connected to a political party makes you inferior. Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Modern conservatism is antithetical to human life. But don't hate conservatives pretty please
 

Bedinsis

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Well, guess what; they're already starting to [ban books] and it's using the good ol "IT'S CRT!" excuse to make it happen.
Are they though? Or is it all things like this, where they aren't banning stuff but people are giving unreasonable, disingenuous takes?
Since you asked:


Though the article talks about the experience in Texas, I suspect it is relevant for what the experience might be in Indiana.
 

Silvanus

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In regular conversation, I'd agree with you that it's splitting hairs, but we're talking about a bill aiming to become law. Precise language is very important in laws. This bill doesn't say anything about political beliefs or ideology, only affiliation, which is to say they can still teach that certain ideologies are immoral, they can't say being connected to a political party makes you inferior. Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Surely to state that a certain ideology is immoral is functionally indistinguishable from stating that affiliation with a party that espouses that ideology is immoral.
 
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tstorm823

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Surely to state that a certain ideology is immoral is functionally indistinguishable from stating that affiliation with a party that espouses that ideology is immoral.
Every Democrat is affiliated with a party that enacted racial segregation. Condemning racial segregation is not functionally indistinguishable from condemning all Democrats, is it?
 

Cheetodust

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Every Democrat is affiliated with a party that enacted racial segregation. Condemning racial segregation is not functionally indistinguishable from condemning all Democrats, is it?
Espouses. Present tense.
 

Trunkage

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And this doesn't violate that law, unless you are teaching that they should feel bad about it as a consequence of their race or being a Republican or something else on the list of protected classes. There's a distinction between feeling bad about being taught about the rise of the Nazis because you have German ancestry and the topic happens to make you feel bad about the actions of your ancestors, and being taught that all German people to this day are collectively guilty of the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis.
How in the gods names can you actually believe this?

Because, unless you think that the only way that people can get tripped up by this law is that they say it outright, which people aren't stupid enough to do, this law is pointless. Meaning that you think that the GOP are stupid. I dont think that they are stupid

It's written in a way that you could just about fit just about anything into that definition. THAT'S THE POINT
 

Trunkage

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Every Democrat is affiliated with a party that enacted racial segregation. Condemning racial segregation is not functionally indistinguishable from condemning all Democrats, is it?
Maybe... just maybe when someone states that the Dems used to enacted racial segregation, you could just say that they aren't like that anymore. Instead of making laws and pretending that the person violently verbally attacked you
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Every Democrat is affiliated with a party that enacted racial segregation. Condemning racial segregation is not functionally indistinguishable from condemning all Democrats, is it?
Still salty the conservatives tried pounding that line 4 years ago and couldn't make it stick, huh
 

tstorm823

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Still salty the conservatives tried pounding that line 4 years ago and couldn't make it stick, huh
I've been making that argument on this website personally for like 11 years. I don't know what happened 4 years ago that you're referencing.
Maybe... just maybe when someone states that the Dems used to enacted racial segregation, you could just say that they aren't like that anymore. Instead of making laws and pretending that the person violently verbally attacked you
Shall we flip this around on you? Why do you think it so important that teachers in Indiana be allowed to condemn individuals based on their political party during their public school teaching? Why is it insufficient to be able to condemn a practice without condemning not just it's practitioners, but also everyone associated with the practitioners?

Like, let's look at this from the shallow perspective. Why would Republicans want to stop teachers condemning all members of whole political parties at a time? It's because the teachers are teaching students that all Republicans are bad people. That is what you're defending, the right of teachers to tell their students which parties are good and bad.
 

Silvanus

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Every Democrat is affiliated with a party that enacted racial segregation. Condemning racial segregation is not functionally indistinguishable from condemning all Democrats, is it?
Condemning a present core tenet of a party is functionally identical to condemning affiliation with that party.

It's because the teachers are teaching students that all Republicans are bad people.
They're not, though. Republicans excel at getting people angry about things that aren't happening, and channelling that anger into support.

The UK Conservatives are much the same. The economy is going down the toilet, the Brexit deal is falling apart, and we have more Covid deaths than anywhere else in Europe. So Priti Patel will churn out some nonsense legislation to stop "woke" university lecturers from doing something they weren't even doing anyway. It'll distract the party faithful, who now have another target to get irrationally angry about. It'll distract the press, who will leap at any reason to change the narrative and not have to report how badly everything's going.
 
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tstorm823

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They're not, though. Republicans excel at getting people angry about things that aren't happening, and channelling that anger into support.
It's amazing that you can simultaneously claim that a thing isn't happening and get upset at the thing that isn't happening being banned.
 

Silvanus

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It's amazing that you can simultaneously claim that a thing isn't happening and get upset at the thing that isn't happening being banned.
Way to miss the point.

I'm not upset at something which isn't happening being banned. I'm frustrated with fabricated accusations used to smear people for the political benefit of conmen and shysters.
 

Trunkage

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I've been making that argument on this website personally for like 11 years. I don't know what happened 4 years ago that you're referencing.

Shall we flip this around on you? Why do you think it so important that teachers in Indiana be allowed to condemn individuals based on their political party during their public school teaching? Why is it insufficient to be able to condemn a practice without condemning not just it's practitioners, but also everyone associated with the practitioners?

Like, let's look at this from the shallow perspective. Why would Republicans want to stop teachers condemning all members of whole political parties at a time? It's because the teachers are teaching students that all Republicans are bad people. That is what you're defending, the right of teachers to tell their students which parties are good and bad.
We... shouldn't call slavers slavers because that wouldn't be nice. Definitely can't say the slavers did the wrong thing...

Yeah, no. I'm absolutely fine calling slavers wrong for slaving people. As a white person who does not live at that time, it does not affect me one iota. Even if you use an Aussie example like the Stolen Generation. It was wrong and we as a soceity need to take responsibility for it. Not try and hide away from facts
 

Gordon_4

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We... shouldn't call slavers slavers because that wouldn't be nice. Definitely can't say the slavers did the wrong thing...

Yeah, no. I'm absolutely fine calling slavers wrong for slaving people. As a white person who does not live at that time, it does not affect me one iota. Even if you use an Aussie example like the Stolen Generation. It was wrong and we as a soceity need to take responsibility for it. Not try and hide away from facts
That and White Australia Policy. Oooof.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I've been making that argument on this website personally for like 11 years. I don't know what happened 4 years ago that you're referencing.
And it's never had the desired effect, which is hilarious.

If a teacher were teaching that modern conservatism was bad, what with government takeovers, militia groups, batshit insane conspiracy theories, violent assaults, targeted assassinations, failed fiscal policy, etc, etc, etc; would that be okay just because they said "but don't hate modern conservatives for all those terrible things they believed"?

And no dodging the point this time!
 

Gordon_4

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*coughnaurucough*
White Australia Policy was a historical example, per the context of the conversation. Nauru is an ongoing matter and is one to which there is considerable public opposition AND support. Though I do not expect it to be judged any better in 50 or 60 years.