Utah creates 5 person commission to regulate one trans girl playing sports

Buyetyen

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I am stating a position. Even better, I explicitly qualified "the way things looks to me". None of that is "promoting as gospel".
Yeah, exactly, you're full of shit and use weasel words to get out of being called out for your overt bigotry.

This was you earlier:

Because most of the people currently identifying as trans are just depressed, and searching for a way to explain their depression.
This was not you saying, "in my opinion," this was you stating your belief as fact.

Can you back up any of your claims with real evidence? Yes or no.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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a) Because most of the people currently identifying as trans are just depressed, and searching for a way to explain their depression. Now they are identifying as a gender identity that you can't even define. Identifying as a woman when we aren't even allowed to define the word woman is not going to help anyone put new meaning into their life.
b) It's being cynically pushed as a political wedge issue. Democrats and the mainstream media are getting decreasing amounts of traction yelling "racist" repeatedly, and are reaching for more ways to isolate "minorities" from society, cause that is their election strategy of the last 60 years. If they can just get enough of the youth to identify as LGBTQ+, they can milk 20 more years out of that strategy.
Proof is a stupid standard. I've said that many times. I'm not asking one to prove anything, I rarely even ask for evidence, I just want Buyetyen to consider contributing to the conversation.

I'm not asking for that. I'm not asking for proof or evidence or any of that. What I'd prefer is for people to stop making posts that add literally nothing to the conversation. "You're wrong" or "you don't know what you're talking about" mean absolutely nothing.
I have little but my own perspective and experiences. And that's ok.
Seriously though, just stop engaging with t about stuff like this. He doesn't care, he doesn't know, and there zero information that would change his mind. He actively says so

He's just time-wasting with "Source: Dude, trust me"
 

Silvanus

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You seem to think that couldn't be the case. People with problems look for both ways to rationalize them and to cope. Funny enough, I personally don't think sexuality is a clean system with concrete roles, and I think anyone could develop an attraction to basically anything at any time. I can definitely imagine people developing new sexual habits as a response to hard times.
To be clear: you are actually arguing now that gay people sometimes just think they're gay because they're "depressed"?

Wider recognition and acknowledgment of all sorts of mental states has led more people to "find out the reasons behind the way they feel". That doesn't mean they are correct. You say rates of self-identification as gay have risen hugely, but I don't think that's true. Must polls on the subject ask if people are "LGBTQ", and it's the "BTQ" that captures at least the majority of the increase.
That's categorically false. People identifying as trans and bi are a small proportion even of the LGBTQ community.

And no, wider acknowledgement of something doesn't necessarily mean someone is right if they start to identify with it. But they're a lot more likely to correctly recognise what they are than they would be in the previous situation: where straight/cis is the only acknowledged state, and anyone feeling they don't fit into that is dismissed, arrested or institutionalised.

You must realise that a gay person is far, far, far more likely to incorrectly believe themselves straight than the other way around. Ditto a cis and trans person. Stigma drives people to deny and repress their own feelings.
 

Terminal Blue

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Given a fixed quantity of gas particles, the pressure, volume, and temperature are related to one another. That remains true, just imprecise.
It is not imprecise. It is partial.

The ideal gas law is an accurate representation of one particular physical process in isolation. It is valuable because it is accurate 100% of the time when we exclude or account for the action of other physical processes. That's why this is not a good analogy.

99% of the time, gamete production/chromosomes/genetalia/secondary sex characteristics all correlate, and because of rare exceptions, you want to throw out the rule entirely
Firstly, yes.

If I drop an object 99 times and it falls to earth, but when I drop it the hundredth time it doesn't fall and stays hovering in the air, that hundredth time has far more profound implications for the theory of gravity than any of the preceding 99. That is basic empiricism. Finding the rare exceptions to general principles is a huge part of what scientists try to do, because they are the points that advance knowledge the most.

Secondly, this is not a rule. This is not even the most rudimentary basis for constructing a rule. A rule is a principle which is simple yet accurate and which can be used to construct more complex models. This is a complex model being deliberately oversimplified to fulfil ideological objectives.

There are a vast, vast range of factors which go into determining the appearance of someone's genitals, or their secondary sex characteristics. All human beings have some degree of variation in the appearance of their genitals and secondary sex characteristics, regardless of assigned sex, because all human beings are subject to countless genetic and environmental variations which impact these things. The appearance of your genitals is not scientifically significant, it's merely the end result of a complex and far more interesting process. It is socially significant, but only because it has been socially significant long before anyone understood anything of the mechanisms by which it was produced.

Biology cannot magically create a coherent social meaning of sex, and it certainly cannot assign that meaning any kind of metaphysical or teleological importance. That social meaning of sex existed before biology existed, and biology will exist long after that meaning is gone. Appealing to biology is merely trying to add a façade of rationality to deeply unscientific beliefs about the meaning and purpose of human life.

You are not trying to grow or develop the understanding to capture the exceptions to the simple rule, you are denying that there's anything physical there to understand in the first place.
There is a huge ammount to physically understand, once you understand that none of it will give scientific credibility to the meaning our society has historically assigned to being a "man" or a "woman".

You missed out some of the most important and interesting bits in the whole process. What about gonadal cell determination and later composition? What about the SRY gene? What about the hormones that actually do the work of creating the physical structures of the genitals and secondary sex characteristics? There is a complex and fascinating machinery at work here. None of it, however, will ever explain the existence of men and women as social categories. None of it will produce the natural, sex complementary social order you want.
 

tstorm823

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To be clear: you are actually arguing now that gay people sometimes just think they're gay because they're "depressed"?
Beyond that, I don't think gay and straight are actual discrete categories. I think the idea that a man finding another man attractive puts him in a distinct category of person is just homophobia in action.
That's categorically false. People identifying as trans and bi are a small proportion even of the LGBTQ community.
That's not true anymore.
First link is from 2011, bi had just overtook gay/lesbian as the majority of LGBT. Second link is more recent gallop poll with over double the rate of bisexuality and transgenderism. Gay and lesbian combined is now only about a third of those identifying as LGBTQ.
You must realise that a gay person is far, far, far more likely to incorrectly believe themselves straight than the other way around. Ditto a cis and trans person. Stigma drives people to deny and repress their own feelings.
You have to understand, I don't think any of these categories ought to exist. I don't think a person should believe themselves "straight", "gay", "cis", or "trans". I think male and female are distinct biological categories (because that's how reproduction works), and all the rest of this is trying to put people into neat little boxes that don't need to exist. I think putting any label on yourself is ultimately trying to box out some of your real feelings, whether you're trying to make yourself straight/cis or gay/trans, so I understand your perspective of people repressing their feelings, but I think you're treating this as a right/wrong dichotomy when the whole system is bogus. Like, I understand and have a lot in common with TerminalBlue's perspective, it's just flipping what is the fixed concept and what is social construction.
Biology cannot magically create a coherent social meaning of sex, and it certainly cannot assign that meaning any kind of metaphysical or teleological importance. That social meaning of sex existed before biology existed, and biology will exist long after that meaning is gone. Appealing to biology is merely trying to add a façade of rationality to deeply unscientific beliefs about the meaning and purpose of human life.
Your existence completely disproves this paragraph. Human reproduction is dependent on the coherent social meaning of sex, and reproduction has significant metaphysical and teleological importance. There are natural and social mechanisms which purposefully put sperm in contact with egg, otherwise none of us exists. If that concept of sex disappears the way you imagine it will, so does the whole species.
 

Thaluikhain

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Your existence completely disproves this paragraph. Human reproduction is dependent on the coherent social meaning of sex, and reproduction has significant metaphysical and teleological importance. There are natural and social mechanisms which purposefully put sperm in contact with egg, otherwise none of us exists. If that concept of sex disappears the way you imagine it will, so does the whole species.
:rolleyes:
 

McElroy

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If that concept of sex disappears the way you imagine it will, so does the whole species.
We won't know unless we try. Anyway, it makes intuitive sense that a sexless society would go extinct. Whole populations are already old and dwindling, because they have "better" things to do.
 

Silvanus

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Beyond that, I don't think gay and straight are actual discrete categories. I think the idea that a man finding another man attractive puts him in a distinct category of person is just homophobia in action.
I mean... its long been muted that almost everyone can experience some level of homosexual and heterosexual attraction. That's the basis of the Kinsey scale. But if you believe everyone is just as likely/capable of experiencing either kind, you're talking at complete odds with the experience of almost everyone on the planet.

People have predominant attractions most of the time, and it's not a result of environment, because environment tends to try to stamp everyone into heterosexuality.

That's not true anymore.
First link is from 2011, bi had just overtook gay/lesbian as the majority of LGBT. Second link is more recent gallop poll with over double the rate of bisexuality and transgenderism. Gay and lesbian combined is now only about a third of those identifying as LGBTQ.
I'll have a look at that later. On my phone at the mo'. Suffice it to say that's not been my experience, or the experience of anyone I've met in various LGBTQ environments.

You have to understand, I don't think any of these categories ought to exist. I don't think a person should believe themselves "straight", "gay", "cis", or "trans". I think male and female are distinct biological categories (because that's how reproduction works), and all the rest of this is trying to put people into neat little boxes that don't need to exist. I think putting any label on yourself is ultimately trying to box out some of your real feelings, whether you're trying to make yourself straight/cis or gay/trans, so I understand your perspective of people repressing their feelings, but I think you're treating this as a right/wrong dichotomy when the whole system is bogus. Like, I understand and have a lot in common with TerminalBlue's perspective, it's just flipping what is the fixed concept and what is social construction.
Yet you also approve of efforts to force people to fit into those boxes through the abusive practice of conversion therapy?
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Your existence completely disproves this paragraph. Human reproduction is dependent on the coherent social meaning of sex, and reproduction has significant metaphysical and teleological importance.
No it doesn't. god said so
There are natural and social mechanisms which purposefully put sperm in contact with egg, otherwise none of us exists. If that concept of sex disappears the way you imagine it will, so does the whole species.
There are nearly 8 billion people on earth. By sheer statistical chance enough people are going to have enough compatable sexual partners to create a stable population regardless of the gender identities involved through the sheer process of "sex is fun"
We won't know unless we try. Anyway, it makes intuitive sense that a sexless society would go extinct. Whole populations are already old and dwindling, because they have "better" things to do.
That's more a function of anti-human economics than any panic over genders though.
 
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tstorm823

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Yet you also approve of efforts to force people to fit into those boxes through the abusive practice of conversion therapy?
I do not. I'm not aware of myself ever supporting forced conversions.
 

tstorm823

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But by saying you support conversion, you are implicitly acknowledging the very boxes you claim not to recognize.
I did not say I support conversions. I don't believe there is such a thing, but the implication of saying that is typically that people are locked in place, and I don't mean to say that either. People's beliefs, preferences, opinions, etc can change. I'm neither a believer nor fan of the idea of changing those things against the will of the individual, I don't think meaningful personal change can happen against ones will. I also wouldn't categorize it as "conversion" if one were to change preferences, but that is the verbiage people use, so sometimes you have to engage the discussion where it is happening before you can make such a point.
 

Phoenixmgs

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With the extra state laws saying your ID needs to match your birth certificate, keep up.

When that doctor also has a copy of your birth certificate *and* you have an injury that'ssignificantlyimpacted by your sex/gender? Super rare, bordering on never

Which is much different than "we don't know if eggs are healthy, yeah

It's also only relevant on a case by case basis, maybe. So not a blanket ban sort of thing

That's not true though. There are zero men being banned for naturally high testosterone despite testing for drugs

Maybe, maybe not. WNBA has technically allowed trans women for decades now and the fact that there are zero of them in the league should be a clue

Most biologists, specifically endocrinologists, know those things can totally be affected by hormones and steriods


Same way as they banned gay people getting married.
Someday you'll figure out I'm bringing that up because you're making a terrible semantic argument.
How are you outing yourself to cops? Your ID matches your birth certificate because you need to bring in your birth certificate to get an ID. Why wouldn't it match outside of clerical error?

Again, they check your ID that has info that matches your birth certificate as explained above. I don't get how this is a hard concept to understand. I'm sure sex comes into play with treatment for various things. Weren't all you people for doing literally everything for covid "if it saves just one life"? And now you're like trans people should be able to change their birth certificate (even though that accomplishes like nothing but make them feel ever so slightly better) while it can cost life in the long run.

Eggs are very healthy for you and I brought them up because there has been a very known controversy over them.

Yeah, men being on average 5 inches taller is solely do to a case-by-case basis and has nothing to do with the biological differences in the sexes...

I don't know how many times I have to say this. I don't know the specifics of drug testing and I really don't care. Both men and women can benefit via doping with testosterone or some synthetic that does basically that. If women are getting more false positives than men in this regard, then it's probably an issue with how it's tested for in women. I'm sure there's men that get banned for doing nothing wrong, maybe not specifically testosterone levels as maybe they test for certain chemicals (that point to artificially increased testosterone) vs actual testosterone levels in men.

The trans population is very small so a trans woman not ever playing in the WNBA does really nothing to prove or disprove anything.

And hormone production is different between the sexes and thus the differences.

No, you're making an argument about apples and I'm making an argument about oranges. The whole "they can still get married (only to the opposite sex)" and "they can still compete (in their sex)" isn't close to the being the same thing and you know it. It's a completely disingenuous argument.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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How are you outing yourself to cops? Your ID matches your birth certificate because you need to bring in your birth certificate to get an ID. Why wouldn't it match outside of clerical error?
So when a dude with a beard gets pulled over by a cop and the "Sex" blank on his ID has an F on it because he wasn't allowed to change the birth certificate that his ID was forced to follow, that trans dude just got outed to a cop. I'm flabbergasted that I had to explain that.
Again, they check your ID that has info that matches your birth certificate as explained above. I don't get how this is a hard concept to understand. I'm sure sex comes into play with treatment for various things. Weren't all you people for doing literally everything for covid "if it saves just one life"? And now you're like trans people should be able to change their birth certificate (even though that accomplishes like nothing but make them feel ever so slightly better) while it can cost life in the long run.
Basically never. Probably canceled out by the cop example in the long run
Eggs are very healthy for you and I brought them up because there has been a very known controversy over them.
By wellness cults vs desperate scientists trying to get people to stop eating a dozen eggs a day
Yeah, men being on average 5 inches taller is solely do to a case-by-case basis and has nothing to do with the biological differences in the sexes...
Correct. Averages have no bearing on individual examples. Mugsy Bogues did not have a height advantage over women in the WNBA just because men ate typically taller than women
I don't know how many times I have to say this. I don't know the specifics of drug testing and I really don't care.
Quote of the century right there

The trans population is very small so a trans woman not ever playing in the WNBA does really nothing to prove or disprove anything.
I mean, kinda proves the idea that a third string dude desperate to win anything is not, in fact, going to transition to get a win
And hormone production is different between the sexes and thus the differences.
We've had drugs for that for longer than I've been alive. It's how we treat deficiencies in those exact things, a thing they could not do if they didn't have an effect
No, you're making an argument about apples and I'm making an argument about oranges. The whole "they can still get married (only to the opposite sex)" and "they can still compete (in their sex)" isn't close to the being the same thing and you know it. It's a completely disingenuous argument.
Yes. It is. You are *impaling* yourself on this point. Claiming that trans girls aren't getting banned from playing sports is like arguing gay men weren't banned from getting married.

Trans girls *are banned* from playing with girls.
Gay men *were banned* from marrying men.

If trans girls aren't banned from sport, then gay men weren't banned from marriage. That's the *semantic* argument you are making.
 

Buyetyen

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I did not say I support conversions. I don't believe there is such a thing, but the implication of saying that is typically that people are locked in place, and I don't mean to say that either. People's beliefs, preferences, opinions, etc can change. I'm neither a believer nor fan of the idea of changing those things against the will of the individual, I don't think meaningful personal change can happen against ones will. I also wouldn't categorize it as "conversion" if one were to change preferences, but that is the verbiage people use, so sometimes you have to engage the discussion where it is happening before you can make such a point.
That's a lot of words to say, "I support conversion torture, but calling it that hurts me feefees."