The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

[CriticalGaming]

Its more the repeated playthroughs (and to a lesser extent the endgame points) where the cracks start showing. Like the "breaking point" for repeating bosses for most people will either be the evergaol where Godrick (a mainline Demigod shard bearer super important boss) gets recycled, or even moreso when you meet Astel #2 randomly in the snowfields.


Its those points when you get to Mountaintop of the Giants, or Dragonbarrow when you notice the thinnning out of content and the bits that are there are 100% recycled. The second playthrough or NG+ is when you're gonna scratch your head and say "do I really need to visit this dungeon and fight Erdtree Watchdog #11 or another Ulcerated Tree Spirit". When you get to the end of some quests that just sputter and end without any context.

To add to this, as you get to these late game areas the number of various caves, catacombs, evergaols, etc just dries up. Caelis, Limgrave, and Luneria are the zones with the most side content to do. Beyond that every other zone almost completely dries up in terms of having places to explore. The underground areas are basically their own side content as none of them have side paths, extra caves, or evergaols themselves.

The back half of the game dries up conciderably, and i can help but wonder if simply spacing out the early bombardment of side shit into some of the later zones too would have helpped make keep things less repetitive. Then again, those late zones are also significantly smaller to make up for the lack of side content as well so maybe it's a wash.

 

[sXeth]

To add to this, as you get to these late game areas the number of various caves, catacombs, evergaols, etc just dries up. Caelis, Limgrave, and Luneria are the zones with the most side content to do. Beyond that every other zone almost completely dries up in terms of having places to explore. The underground areas are basically their own side content as none of them have side paths, extra caves, or evergaols themselves.

The back half of the game dries up conciderably, and i can help but wonder if simply spacing out the early bombardment of side shit into some of the later zones too would have helpped make keep things less repetitive. Then again, those late zones are also significantly smaller to make up for the lack of side content as well so maybe it's a wash.

The Underground you really have to take as one entire zone. In which case it includes at least two wholly optional side dungeons, and 5 optional bosses (granted, 3 of these are Dragonknights, with the "true" Dragonknight boss oddly being the middle one level wise)

Altus is a pretty dense area all in all too. It even has two real dungeons in Shaded Castle and Leyndell Capital, granted the former is a contextless weird dumping ground thats never really explained (Why are cleanrot knights and the valkyrie prosthesis there? Why is the apparent only Marais alive in a random spot outside, and who is the weird briar dude inside, and why is the place full of revenants, perfumers and collapsed in poison. And why in hell does Patches go there after the manor then vanish (not die) neverr to be seen again.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

The problematic act of balancing massive open world games.

FROM were never experts in this in the first place, but it was easier to overlook the more minor shortcomings in past titles due to the more focused, directed progression. Sekiro was perhaps their tightest game ever, and it’s kinda ironic that during the finishing touches of it they were probably roughing out an alpha stage of its near polar opposite. This was new territory for them, and basically it exemplifies their strengths and weaknesses more than ever before.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Stumbled upon the Windmill village and ....yeah, that place is fucking creepy. I would not be shocked if there's a wicker man somewhere around there because these people have clearly been out in the middle of nowhere for too long.

Speaking of -

But for something even creepier -

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I wonder how many of ER’s bosses were holdovers from past games.

 

[Dalisclock]

Gen Starscourage Radahn is dead. And main, that fight is something. It's interesting it's an optional fight considering the trailers all heavily feature it the General fighting his Sister(?) in the battle that fucked Caelid, and hell, the fact there's the whole festival built up around it(the the point you can skip the castle as a dungeon to go straight to the fight). I mean, I do love that you get this big war sequence to take him down(and a great music track to boot), not unlike the Burnt Ivory King in DS2. OTOH, it's still a weirdly brutal fight because fuck is he fast despite how fucking huge he is. And while I love the idea of being able to fight a perfect battle against him on horseback, eventually I caved, leveled faith and arcane and used Rotbreath on him(and even then you have to get close and hit him a couple times for it to take). It may be a cheese tactic but you're still putting yourself in danger to implement it because he can EASILY smack you down while you're trying to use it. And there's the issue that you have more ability to really fight him on the ground but horseback gives you mobility to hit and run...and both of them are kind of a pain.

Kudos for the attempt anyway, FROM.

Also, I kinda love the lore that he learned gravity magic just to he could keep riding that horse that's so fucking tiny compared to him.

Jerran: General, let me get you a bigger horse. One more suited to your size.
Radahn: Screw that. I'm gonna go get a magic degree just to I can keep riding him without crushing him.
Leonard: *Pathetic Neighing*

 

[CriticalGaming]

The problematic act of balancing massive open world games.

FROM were never experts in this in the first place, but it was easier to overlook the more minor shortcomings in past titles due to the more focused, directed progression. Sekiro was perhaps their tightest game ever, and it’s kinda ironic that during the finishing touches of it they were probably roughing out an alpha stage of its near polar opposite. This was new territory for them, and basically it exemplifies their strengths and weaknesses more than ever before.

I do find it fancinating that all these reviews say basically the same shit, like..."Yeah the bosses are broken, some builds are broken, and a lot of the content is extremely copy-pastaed. BUT I FUCKING LOVE THIS GAME ANYWAY!"

And that's fine. I suppose if you love it despite the flaws then, who can really say they're wrong?

I can only shake my head and disagree because I feel like FromSoft can, has, and should do better.

 

[Chupathingy]

(Why are cleanrot knights and the valkyrie prosthesis there? Why is the apparent only Marais alive in a random spot outside, and who is the weird briar dude inside, and why is the place full of revenants, perfumers and collapsed in poison. And why in hell does Patches go there after the manor then vanish (not die) neverr to be seen again.

The Marais family worshipped the same Rot God/Goddess that Gowry and other rot cultists worship (or alternatively they worship Malenia herself).

When Maleigh Marais, Lord of the Shaded Castle, embraced this prosthesis, he claimed to feel the presence of his personal goddess.

Marais is outside because Elemer somehow escaped his execution and basically kicked him out.

Elemer of the Briar, the Bell Bearing Hunter, snatched the sword from the site of his looming execution,

Don't know about the revenants (I don't really know anything about the revenants), but the perfumers are depraved perfumers who have supposedly become addicted to their own mixtures and left the proper service of the capital. They're most likely in the castle looking for new drugs to get high on.

These heresy-inclined perfumers imbibe their own spices to alter body and mind. Their slow descent into self-destruction is what earned them their name.

As for the poison I assume the Marais family thought having a poison moat was better than a regular moat and paid the price.

Patches is most likely just unfinished content.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I do find it fancinating that all these reviews say basically the same shit, like..."Yeah the bosses are broken, some builds are broken, and a lot of the content is extremely copy-pastaed. BUT I FUCKING LOVE THIS GAME ANYWAY!"

And that's fine. I suppose if you love it despite the flaws then, who can really say they're wrong?

I can only shake my head and disagree because I feel like FromSoft can, has, and should do better.

I think it’s mostly because despite the flaws it's still doing what only FROM seems to know best, and there’s a lot of people still on board with that for better or worse. If they ever decide to jump to a completely different genre like sc fi or something, maybe even a new take on Armored Core, etc. it will be interesting to see how current Souls fans take to it.

 

[BrawlMan]

​

 

[sXeth]

​

Using the same breakdown.

Reusing DS3 (or other DS) assets and *animations*. Assets, not so much a big deal, but theres entire bosses that're just a reskin with the same animations and same movesets. Thats a pretty valid complaint that someone who played and even enjoyed the prior entry didn't expect to just see the whole horse boss fight carted over. And not just once in some aside "oh cute easter egg", but repeated multiple times throughout. DO dogs and rats need to be reinvented? Not Really. But when you're shifting the same thing into bosses its showing a slide.


I didn't even watch whatever his intended counterpoint to the UI was. Anyone trying to salvage From's UI as good is so far gone smoking who knows what its not even worth speaking to. And it only got worse with the ballooning amount of menus and inventory related to the open world. Highlights include the hidden sort button (not even findable in the helpful "Show controls" section they added to menus). Bizarre order of categories.


Coming around to endpoint (as he noted, everyone thinks the From Sidequest logic faults hard in the open world). Idk where he got 160 bosses as a number, but hey if you want to compare with DS3, then we'd just use a mainline. Where we still get multiple repeats, 3-4 purely gimmick fights. All the general balancing problems that people have noted en masse. If we cherry pick the best ~20 and put them up against Bloodborne or DS3s bosses, I think ER's gonna roll out the loser in those stakes. And the other 60 odd are littered uninspired repeats or regular enemies with a buffed up healthbar

 

[BrawlMan]

Using the same breakdown.

Reusing DS3 (or other DS) assets and *animations*. Assets, not so much a big deal, but theres entire bosses that're just a reskin with the same animations and same movesets. Thats a pretty valid complaint that someone who played and even enjoyed the prior entry didn't expect to just see the whole horse boss fight carted over. And not just once in some aside "oh cute easter egg", but repeated multiple times throughout. DO dogs and rats need to be reinvented? Not Really. But when you're shifting the same thing into bosses its showing a slide.


I didn't even watch whatever his intended counterpoint to the UI was. Anyone trying to salvage From's UI as good is so far gone smoking who knows what its not even worth speaking to. And it only got worse with the ballooning amount of menus and inventory related to the open world. Highlights include the hidden sort button (not even findable in the helpful "Show controls" section they added to menus). Bizarre order of categories.


Coming around to endpoint (as he noted, everyone thinks the From Sidequest logic faults hard in the open world). Idk where he got 160 bosses as a number, but hey if you want to compare with DS3, then we'd just use a mainline. Where we still get multiple repeats, 3-4 purely gimmick fights. All the general balancing problems that people have noted en masse. If we cherry pick the best ~20 and put them up against Bloodborne or DS3s bosses, I think ER's gonna roll out the loser in those stakes. And the other 60 odd are littered uninspired repeats or regular enemies with a buffed up healthbar

I haven't seen a whole video yet, just a few parts in the beginning. I have no major stake in this, but it was just something interesting I found. That said, I'm more likely to believe and trust (which I do) you than him.

 

[EvilRoy]

Gen Starscourage Radahn is dead. And main, that fight is something. It's interesting it's an optional fight considering the trailers all heavily feature it the General fighting his Sister(?) in the battle that fucked Caelid, and hell, the fact there's the whole festival built up around it(the the point you can skip the castle as a dungeon to go straight to the fight). I mean, I do love that you get this big war sequence to take him down(and a great music track to boot), not unlike the Burnt Ivory King in DS2. OTOH, it's still a weirdly brutal fight because fuck is he fast despite how fucking huge he is. And while I love the idea of being able to fight a perfect battle against him on horseback, eventually I caved, leveled faith and arcane and used Rotbreath on him(and even then you have to get close and hit him a couple times for it to take). It may be a cheese tactic but you're still putting yourself in danger to implement it because he can EASILY smack you down while you're trying to use it. And there's the issue that you have more ability to really fight him on the ground but horseback gives you mobility to hit and run...and both of them are kind of a pain.

Kudos for the attempt anyway, FROM.

Also, I kinda love the lore that he learned gravity magic just to he could keep riding that horse that's so fucking tiny compared to him.

Jerran: General, let me get you a bigger horse. One more suited to your size.
Radahn: Screw that. I'm gonna go get a magic degree just to I can keep riding him without crushing him.
Leonard: *Pathetic Neighing*

I was pretty impressed with that boss fight. There are a few different tactics that work really well but the problem is they are all about committing, which is something that Elden Ring as a game doesn't seem to really encourage barring a couple of builds like bleed that work everywhere. He moves so fast and hits so hard that any sort of middle of the road build can't really deal - you need to either be hit and run with a slow high damage weapon, or dancing around constantly with a fast weapon, or getting distractions on the field so you can set up big magical/faith attacks. Any sort of rounded build seems to struggle because once he gets those floating rocks around his head you're basically fighting on a timer and a build that doesn't commit can't seem to do enough damage fast enough. Personally I took the biggest damn sword I had, levelled it all the way up, and then hit him like a train periodically from horseback while my army kept him distracted.

It felt pretty good, and it was an interesting progression from my fight with Commander O'Neil, who I also attacked from horseback with hit and run tactics, difference being that he hits like the General, but can't move nearly as quickly. Stuff like that makes me wonder if the boss designers had a fairly thorough "this is the order you're supposed to do stuff in" mindset, and a lot of the bosses actually are meant to train you for the next encounter, but the nature of the open world completely sabotages that outlook. I'm not doing a full NG+ run, but I have been messing around a bit, and I decided that I was going to hit every single Erdtree Catacomb and grave in a row, and now that I don't have a long pause between each dungeon and I'm hitting them systematically, I'm actually seeing really interesting differences and progression. If you do them "in order" they have a steady progression of complexity and clever traps/secrets/puzzles that I completely didn't see when playing the game normally in my first run. They seem to be designed to be encountered in a linear order that would never happen in an open world game.

 

[sXeth]

I decided that I was going to hit every single Erdtree Catacomb and grave in a row, and now that I don't have a long pause between each dungeon and I'm hitting them systematically, I'm actually seeing really interesting differences and progression. If you do them "in order" they have a steady progression of complexity and clever traps/secrets/puzzles that I completely didn't see when playing the game normally in my first run. They seem to be designed to be encountered in a linear order that would never happen in an open world game.

The thing I generally noted with the Catacombs was that they never really coalesce into the final exam. You have the teleporter gimmick dungeon, the illusory wall dungeon, the elevator under the elevator dungeon, the ride-the-guillotine dungeon.

To take a comparison, there is usually the final dungeon in Zelda where you have to use all the gadgets, and sometimes in tandem, after you beat the 7-8 individual gimmicks (which don't often use more then their specific dungeon item).

And they never seem to get there. The Mountaintop Catacomb is certainly longer then any other one. But its all elevator under elevator gimmick. No illusion walls, no teleporters, the guillotines are there but dont get used as lifts (and then you fight an unexplained scarlet rot tree spirit, which drops seeds that aren't even usable anymore if you've explored, but thats its own aside)

 

[Brokencontroller]

The thing I generally noted with the Catacombs was that they never really coalesce into the final exam. You have the teleporter gimmick dungeon, the illusory wall dungeon, the elevator under the elevator dungeon, the ride-the-guillotine dungeon.

To take a comparison, there is usually the final dungeon in Zelda where you have to use all the gadgets, and sometimes in tandem, after you beat the 7-8 individual gimmicks (which don't often use more then their specific dungeon item).

And they never seem to get there. The Mountaintop Catacomb is certainly longer then any other one. But its all elevator under elevator gimmick. No illusion walls, no teleporters, the guillotines are there but dont get used as lifts (and then you fight an unexplained scarlet rot tree spirit, which drops seeds that aren't even usable anymore if you've explored, but thats its own aside)

You know i might be crazy but i rather like the bosses having gimmicks like Demon's Souls. Every fight is memberable because of it. Even if some of the gimmicks end up being too "easy" for a souls game, the fact that there is a slight puzzle to each boss is nice.

Otherwise every fight is just pattern fighting which one of those review videos compared souls fights to turn-based combat. Meaning, the boss does a bunch of shit and you dodge and wait your turn. Then there is a break for you to hit a couple times. Then the boss does something and you wait. And back and forth it goes. Until you fuck up or win.

However with Demon's Souls bosses that isnt the case. You sort of contantly get to do stuff in those fights, around whatever the gimmick of the fight allows.

I like gimmicks is what im trying to say.

 

[sXeth]

You know i might be crazy but i rather like the bosses having gimmicks like Demon's Souls. Every fight is memberable because of it. Even if some of the gimmicks end up being too "easy" for a souls game, the fact that there is a slight puzzle to each boss is nice.

Otherwise every fight is just pattern fighting which one of those review videos compared souls fights to turn-based combat. Meaning, the boss does a bunch of shit and you dodge and wait your turn. Then there is a break for you to hit a couple times. Then the boss does something and you wait. And back and forth it goes. Until you fuck up or win.

However with Demon's Souls bosses that isnt the case. You sort of contantly get to do stuff in those fights, around whatever the gimmick of the fight allows.

I like gimmicks is what im trying to say.

I'm speaking more to the dungeon design.

If we're getting into gimmicked fights, well.

Rykard - Pretty barebones, kind of annoying to have to abandon your playstyle and suddenly use a new abritrary weapon, all the moreso that you also will probably need to spend upgrade materials on it (particularly if you're a caster stat build). And a recycle of the Storm Ruler fight from DS3 (except made magnitudinally harder to not use the gimmick)

Rennala - Inoffensive, but a generally bland gimmick. The main thing I'd critique here is that Rennala comes out of the cutscene firing a one shot Comet Azur at you in phase 2, meaning you will almost definitely have to slog through this 2-3 phases of unthreatening busy work over again.

Radahn - Gimmick might be stretching this. The main thing here is that having a dozen or more aggro pullers for you basically hands casters the cakewalk button, while if anything probably makes meleeing harder due to unpredictability of targeting. Its a weirdly slapdash imbalanced fight. Also we got our first glimpse at the playtesting maybe not being thorough cause Radahn launched with a broken hitbox that was inordinately punishing melee ontop of the design.

Crystalians - Lets reverse that prior issue and now we've got the boss that punishes spellcasters. Particularly faith casters who are unlikely to have picked up Crucible miracles or the Stone of Gurranq to actually stagger these things and trigger their vulnerability. Flip a coin on a sorceror having picked up any gravity spell (the first "natural" order one in the Academy, and you'll likely find their caves exploring before then). Ironically partially due to gimmickrry, these are almost mandatory to get the smithing stone bell bearings to have upgrade materials for the random side builds you'll need to do.

The distant 5th is probably the Golem. While they share the Crystalians issue of being rigourously anti-caster (and requiring specific weakpoint targeting), only one ever gets boss treatment. Like Rykard this time we're upcycling Demons Souls gimmick. The Golems main thing is that it gets dumped in so many repetitions that it stops being an amusing callback and Easter egg and starts just being a chore (though 95% of them can be run by on horse). (If you're particularly into reading item descriptions, the Golems are also supposed to be unique to Stormhill as well, making their other appearances very erratic)

 

[Brokencontroller]

@sXeth

As much as the idea behind different dungeons has possibilities. I am not sure we need annoying exploration on top of enemy difficulty. Unless they did puzzle dungeons with almost no fighting within them.

Come to think of it....a puzzle dungeon that gave you a boss everytime you fucked up the puzzle could be interesting....but also frustrating so maybe not.

If gimmicks are used they are best served in where the game is the best and thats with the combat.

As for your gimmick examples i dont really think any of them apply except renala's first phase.

Rykaard is a fight design that has been in almost every game and while is actually a gimmick fight, it has been a staple for a long time.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I haven’t had much time to play lately but just got to the Royal Capital area. However there’s still likely a ton of stuff I haven’t seen yet, as I’ve kinda been progressing in a crescent arc finding maps and grace sites from the east side of Caelid and generally doing a first pass through most locations. Currently level 58 and haven’t even fought another shard bearing/cutscene boss besides Godrick yet.

Scratch that, I must’ve been 52 or 53 at that point, because I’m only at 58 now. Four of those since were courtesy of Radahn’s runes, so thanks, General. Was an interesting premise to a fight that maybe played better on paper than in practice. I mean, it kinda felt like fighting Slave Knight Gael after Bruce Banner slipped him a few cycles, plus oh boy he was a wheelie horse and a cosmo-bow.

I stuck with my Lordsworn SS+Bleed and it took some restraint and thoughtful positioning to finally drop him. I ultimately huffed it on foot, dodging and summoning to the point where he’s about to rain down arrows, then switched to Torrent for the last stretch and did mostly bleed L2 strikes, trying to keep behind him. Then hop back on Torrent to avoid the meteor and get back to slicing at his ankles to expunge the last quarter of his health.

Now I’m back into the Lakes, as I completely skipped over Caria Manor. Wonder if Miyazaki has a thing for Thing from Addams Family. They’re one of the few main incentives to stealth through an area so far, because fuck are they relentless. Maybe I’ll find a better reason to use more glint stuff after this.

 

[sXeth]

Now I’m back into the Lakes, as I completely skipped over Caria Manor. Wonder if Miyazaki has a thing for Thing from Addams Family. They’re one of the few main incentives to stealth through an area so far, because fuck are they relentless. Maybe I’ll find a better reason to use more glint stuff after this.

Hit the hands with a torch, lol

 

[sXeth]

Its an interesting thesis, though again, a questionable conclusion.


Running the numbers for giggles.

Far Cry 5 (the last "Ubisoft formula" game I played), apparently has 20 Outposts total.
Elden Ring has 56 dungeons as best I could find (https://www.ign.com/wikis/elden-ring/Dungeons)
- Both have points of interest besides these heavily designed encounters that I'm going to disregard for simplicity sake


Now in terms of fatigue (or the point of "I can't be bothered with this anymore"), theres some more interesting nuance.

Far Cry obviously suffers in enemy variety. As the video notes, part of the issues with the Ubisoft formula is theres like 17 things other then the main gameplay with hunting, fishing, crafting, darts, apparently cockfighting comes up in one of them, et al. (I can attest to this from Watch Dogs 2 apparently deciding to moonlight as a RC car puzzle game for most of its open world content)


However, Far Cry tends to not have unique loot so much as just finding cash money for its gun shop/upgrade system (such as it is). It doesn't at the endpoint, waste your time in the Outpost, until you hit the point where you've locked in your weapons. Because its not an RPG (maybe I should've pulled a modern AC, but I haven't played Odyssey or Valhalla) the weapon upgrades are pretty quick and not exclusive in any way.


Elden Ring does have unique loot. Almost to a fault. Now, this does guarantee you will find "something" in a given dungeon. However, the excitement is going to dull out once you get yet another Spirit Ash or weapon/talisman that is unsuited for your character (spoilers, if you're not an Sorcereror/Spellblade type, alot). Even if these were all equally viable and usable (again, they're not, but thats expected), Elden Ring also relies on upgrade materials that are limited to match up any new finds to your current levels. The upgrade materials do become mostly unlimited (Save for the very last), available for rune purchase, but the final 3 tiers of key items for this are all found in the penultimate mandatory story dungeon, which is inaccessible until reachng said point in the story, open world be damned.


Which brings to a question of context or motivation. Your motivation for clearing outposts in FC5 is to unlock the story progression more then anything. Its not astoundingly logical, but it works. Your motivation in Elden Ring is... to get loot for the most part. The random dungeon bosses typically give out a piddling amount of runes as actual levels go. Contextually speaking, you don't get any clues to what the loot is (other then Catacombs will mostly provide Spirit Ashes). Two of the best early game weapons are just found in empty rooms down staircases in open world ruins (the laziest of the aforementioned points of interest) without so much as an elite enemy camped on the entrance. You simultaneously learn to expect nothing of note from ER's dungeons, whilst also making doing every last one of them almost mandatory if you are trying to find a solid bit of gear without using a wiki.


Of course loot isn't everything, we have world building to go on as well... and Far Cry 5 gets something of an easy pass here. The real-world setting means we have a full context for why you might want to control a fuel depot, or a marina, or any number of structures. And why liberating these is important to defeating the big bad. Elden Ring.... has oppurtunities to develop stories and lore to a location. It doesn't take the oppurtunity often. Highroad Cave and Gaol Cave are counter-examples, but most of the dungeons are faceless arrangements of reused tiles, and even their 1-2 unique pieces of loots item description rarely presents anything to do with the location. Even in those two examples, the Blue Dancer charm has nothing to do with the collapsed divine bridge, and of our 3 loot items for Gaol cave, the only connected one is the very basic shield thats actually prisoner stocks.