Colorado signs law allowing abortion at ANY POINT in PREGNANCY

[Trunkage]

People question it all the time and land on men's (sometimes more like "an open category") and women's categories being the best. Sometimes you only need one category and sometimes the divide is unnecessary but mandated because it would be an exception otherwise. It is what it is nonetheless. When money and glory is at stake you will have producers and organizers etc. making demands on how things are done. One such body are the female athletes themselves who want their category to include only them. But in order for it to not be up to whims and opinions they have the IOC for example to set a dumbass rule or two.

I think the IOC made a dumbass rule. I also think its a better rule than 'biological sex'. The only reason this latter rule is used is because its the only thing they could find to match their argument

 

[Alienware]

Welcome to 2022 America...

 

[Dreiko]

Why play soccer if you're not in the premiere league, right?

Almost but not quite.

You can play soccer, but why televise and have people watch it if you're an order of magnitude weaker than the premiere league. Sporting events where the main audience is there because they are literal relatives of the athletes isn't quite the same. And sure you can have that too merely for comedic value but it's not quite the same at the end of the day.

The pretension that it's equivalent or comparable is the main issue here.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Almost but not quite.

You can play soccer, but why televise and have people watch it if you're an order of magnitude weaker than the premiere league. Sporting events where the main audience is there because they are literal relatives of the athletes isn't quite the same. And sure you can have that too merely for comedic value but it's not quite the same at the end of the day.

The pretension that it's equivalent or comparable is the main issue here.

Speaking of pretension.

College football still exists in the age of the NFL. Minor League Baseball is still *very* popular, enough so that the regional minor league teams still exist despite losing backing from the MLB. It's just a regional baseball league now, complete with televised games.

 

[Cheetodust]

Weight classes would seem to make most sense as an alternative, at least for most sports.

I would argue it would make the most sense for very few sports. Team sports for one are largely right out because different positions suit different sizes better.

Most running events weight doesn't factor into it hugely. People of different sizes are very competitive. I mean traditionally sprinters have quite a great deal of muscle mass and are very lean but I haven't seen much that shows that size itself is important. They usually just have great relative strength and rate of force development.

 

[Cheetodust]

Almost but not quite.

You can play soccer, but why televise and have people watch it if you're an order of magnitude weaker than the premiere league. Sporting events where the main audience is there because they are literal relatives of the athletes isn't quite the same. And sure you can have that too merely for comedic value but it's not quite the same at the end of the day.

The pretension that it's equivalent or comparable is the main issue here.

So this WAS just a thinly veiled attempt to say that you hate women's sports. Cool.

 

[McElroy]

I would argue it would make the most sense for very few sports. Team sports for one are largely right out because different positions suit different sizes better.

Most running events weight doesn't factor into it hugely. People of different sizes are very competitive. I mean traditionally sprinters have quite a great deal of muscle mass and are very lean but I haven't seen much that shows that size itself is important. They usually just have great relative strength and rate of force development.

In order for weight classes to work the sport has to be alright with self-regulating it. Strict requirements in lifting and fighting etc. don't make the athletes healthier or anything. It's a rigorous multi-disciplinary grind to get into the required form. It's better to have less of that, but otoh weight classes in lifting are easy to argue.

 

[Cheetodust]

In order for weight classes to work the sport has to be alright with self-regulating it. Strict requirements in lifting and fighting etc. don't make the athletes healthier or anything. It's a rigorous multi-disciplinary grind to get into the required form. It's better to have less of that, but otoh weight classes in lifting are easy to argue.

Yeah mass moves mass. My contention is that "most" sports would not benefit from weight classes. Particularly not as an alternative to dividing by gender. I mean just look at the 2020 Olympics. The lightest men's division (-61kg) was most comparable to the heaviest women's division (+87kg). The women in similar weight classes (59/64) totalled the same at 236kg. 77kg less than the 61kg male gold medalist.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a sport that isn't divided by weight already that would benefit from it.

Gender makes the most sense to divide by and despite the insane ramblings of people who have done no research into this there is no evidence that trans women are dominating in women's sports beyond a few scaremongering mischaracterisation of events. You know who would dominate in women's sports? Trans men.

 

[McElroy]

Yeah and you can imagine how healthy those women in the "superheavy" class are. On paper it says +87kg, but the champion weighs 150 kilos with a BMI of 47.

You know who would dominate in women's sports? Trans men.

You think they would be allowed to get doped up and compete?

 

[Cheetodust]

Yeah and you can imagine how healthy those women in the "superheavy" class are. On paper it says +87kg, but the champion weighs 150 kilos with a BMI of 47.

You think they would be allowed to get doped up and compete?

Yeah the heaviest athletes are pretty fucked. I think at his heaviest Eddie Hall weighed 186kg at 6'3".

I don't think they would be "allowed get doped up and compete" I think that they are men. Whereas trans women have been taking hormones to bring their bodies more in line with someone born female, trans men are taking hormones to bring their bodies more in line with people born male. Like the thing people are worried gives trans women an advantage over cis women, extra testosterone, is what will give trans men an advantage over cis women in sports.

 

[McElroy]

snip

No matter the intent taking androgens is doping no matter who does it. From a practical anti-doping perspective it's ridiculous to give that pass to anybody, because if it's just about some hormone levels, cis-men would start claiming they need it too because somebody else has higher natural levels than them. And frankly trans men have nothing to really complain about in this issue; they can just do their medical transition after their pro career.

 

[Dreiko]

Speaking of pretension.

College football still exists in the age of the NFL. Minor League Baseball is still *very* popular, enough so that the regional minor league teams still exist despite losing backing from the MLB. It's just a regional baseball league now, complete with televised games.

No I know these exist, I just find em silly is all. Unless again it's your kid participating, or you're a sports otaku and you just consume everything in hopes of finding the next MJ in his childhood and following his career.

So this WAS just a thinly veiled attempt to say that you hate women's sports. Cool.

Nah, most sports in general are kinda meh. I like combat ones but that's about it. I used to be into soccer when I was a kid but kinda grew out of it. I just get why you'd watch something like that on TV.

 

[Cheetodust]

No matter the intent taking androgens is doping no matter who does it. From a practical anti-doping perspective it's ridiculous to give that pass to anybody, because if it's just about some hormone levels, cis-men would start claiming they need it too because somebody else has higher natural levels than them.

I mean taking androgens that actively reduce your performance, which is the case in trans women, is the opposite of performance enhancing but okay, I understand that you feel that way.

Unless you're referring to trans men forced to compete in women's sports in which case the reason I don't call it doping is they aren't doing it for a competitive edge because they don't want to compete in the divisions where it would give them one. People are demanding that people compete as their assigned birth sex.

Or what you're arguing is that trans men competing in men's events are doping in which case we're right back to just saying trans men should be entirely excluded from the world of sports.

To be totally against trans people competing in their own gender category requires a group of mutually exclusive views or the total exclusion of trans men from sports and it's largely based on ideology rather than science because lately people have started having very strong opinions on things they have no real knowledge of for political reasons.

 

[Cheetodust]

No I know these exist, I just find em silly is all. Unless again it's your kid participating, or you're a sports otaku and you just consume everything in hopes of finding the next MJ in his childhood and following his career.


Nah, most sports in general are kinda meh. I like combat ones but that's about it. I used to be into soccer when I was a kid but kinda grew out of it. I just get why you'd watch something like that on TV.

Right so you don't have an interest in sport and you think watching sport is pointless. Did you ever think that maybe you don't need to have any opinions on it because your opinion is likely to be ignorant and uninformed? Like maybe you're just not the target demographic? I mean I don't watch anime or play rhythm games and consequently I have no opinion on what qualifies as worthwhile anime or rhythm games. Like it's okay to just not "get" something. It doesn't mean that the people who do like it are weird or wrong.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

No I know these exist, I just find em silly is all. Unless again it's your kid participating, or you're a sports otaku and you just consume everything in hopes of finding the next MJ in his childhood and following his career.

...see, I *know* you play way too many anime games to have this "it's silly to watch/play only the best" attitude

 

[McElroy]

I mean taking androgens that actively reduce your performance, which is the case in trans women, is the opposite of performance enhancing but okay, I understand that you feel that way.

Huh? If there is an androgen that transwomen take (as transgender hormone therapy), I am open for some education.

Unless you're referring to trans men forced to compete in women's sports in which case the reason I don't call it doping is they aren't doing it for a competitive edge because they don't want to compete in the divisions where it would give them one. People are demanding that people compete as their assigned birth sex.

Your opinion doesn't matter, neither does their intent. Using the wrong lip balm is doping under anti-doping regulations (see Therese Johaug for reference). What I demand is an argument that it's better to include androgen-boosted trans men in the men's category instead of """"forcing"""" them to stay in the one they were assigned to. The latter doesn't require rules changes and it brings very little added medicalization into sports. The former option sucks.

Or what you're arguing is that trans men competing in men's events are doping in which case we're right back to just saying trans men should be entirely excluded from the world of sports. To be totally against trans people competing in their own gender category requires a group of mutually exclusive views or the total exclusion of trans men from sports and it's largely based on ideology rather than science because lately people have started having very strong opinions on things they have no real knowledge of for political reasons.

Trans men aren't barred from sports. They can't break anti-doping regulations just like the rest.
I will concede that you clearly want gender identity ideals to be represented in sports. On some level I agree. On the elite level there are too many practical things in play and it can't be done. Spectators, coaches, organizers, managers, and the athletes themselves all get a say, and when money and glory is at stake they won't add complicated identity politics into their regulations, because it would break more than it can fix. And so little fixing is even needed in the first place.

 

[Cheetodust]

Huh? If there is an androgen that transwomen take (as transgender hormone therapy), I am open for some education.

Shit, multiple passes of that left it fucked up. I was meant to be talking about hormones there. I wrote the parts about trans men first and then circled back.

Your opinion doesn't matter, neither does their intent. Using the wrong lip balm is doping under anti-doping regulations (see Therese Johaug for reference).

In the case of Michael Phelps so is smoking weed. All we're doing here is proving that some anti-doping rules are stupid. Which I don't find a compelling argument for having other stupid rules, rather an argument for getti g rid of the stupid rules.

What I demand is an argument that it's better to include androgen-boosted trans men in the men's category instead of """"forcing"""" them to stay in the one they were assigned to. The latter doesn't require rules changes and it brings very little added medicalization into sports. The former option sucks.

Because trans men couldn't transition and compete. Your argument is that trans men can compete as long as they don't medically transition to being a man.

Trans men aren't barred from sports. They can't break anti-doping regulations just like the rest.

"Gay people aren't barred from getting married, they can marry people of the opposite sex just like the rest". Man, I remember those days.

I will concede that you clearly want gender identity ideals to be represented in sports. On some level I agree. On the elite level there are too many practical things in play and it can't be done. Spectators, coaches, organizers, managers, and the athletes themselves all get a say, and when money and glory is at stake they won't add complicated identity politics into their regulations, because it would break more than it can fix. And so little fixing is even needed in the first place.

Plenty of fixing is needed when women with naturally high testosterone are being excluded from women's sports.

 

[Dreiko]

...see, I *know* you play way too many anime games to have this "it's silly to watch/play only the best" attitude

Games are art not competition so I don't really compare them in the same way you would athletics. Also I don't really have a favorite game or something akin to that either because the way I think about it I just have a bunch of games I love infinitely and it's impossible to pick one over the other, it's like asking you to select your favorite kid or something.


But if it's for example watching competitive footage of a game like a fighting game, no, I totally don't waste my time watching anything below top level play because, especially with fighters, I'm competitive myself so I don't get much out of watching lower level play, and also it's amusing to think back like 15 years ago and see things that back then seemed special feel mundane and regular now. You really feel the growth.


But yeah anyways, I get really annoyed at incompetent streamers of games and can't stand watching those unless it's something intentionally bad as a joke. If someone is just bad but not trying to be bad or accepting that they're bad, it's just frustrating as all hell and I can't enjoy it. As a matter of fact, the reason I got into souls games back in the day (I kinda bypassed em for some reason, my first game in that vein was bloodborne) was cause a streamer I watched was playing in such a way where they disregarded item descriptions and didn't examine what stats did, they were all the way into blighttown without wearing gear in half their body and no rings, using an unupgraded weapon. That thing frustrated me so much I ended up just buying the game myself cause I felt the game deserved better lol.

 

[McElroy]

Your argument is that trans men can compete as long as they don't medically transition to being a man.

The argument is that it's not a big deal, while the alternative is an exponentially bigger deal.

Plenty of fixing is needed when women with naturally high testosterone are being excluded from women's sports.

Hehe, there are two ways to read that (because there are ciswomen with too high natural testosterone, for transwomen I refer to my comments on the Utah thread that actually is about this topic). The women's category is exclusive. Too bad. And honestly that's why trans men having to face the regulations like everyone else is such a non-issue.

But yes, we have a fundamental disagreement on ideological grounds. However I do think that despite your ideals not getting realized, things are better in the practical terms I've written about here (and the Utah thread too). If you can't see that it's on you.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Oh yeah, super easy to overturn. It only required 50 years worth of dedicated work and multiple examples of rank political hypocrisy. While the Dems have their share of blame, the Supreme Court went almost a year without a hearing for a new member while a few years later one got pushed through in 8 days under similar circumstances. It wasn't easy, it took a long ass time and the sacrifice of any semblance of good governance to finally get the right number of blatant political operatives on board.


There's actually a *lot* of existing literature complaining that calling girls "women" prematurely sexualizing them, marking them as fair game for pedo men. But I guess because these changes appear unprompted to you, the must be being made with zero justifications completely unprompted, which as everyone knows is inherently stupid, unlike bitterly complaining that women were lumped in with "people" instead of being their own classification of human distinct from "people"

Plenty of people said Roe was argued poorly including pro-abortion people.

Did any girl complain about a building called the Women's something something?

Not necessarily, no.

Biological sex is usually categorised according to several factors: gonads, genitals, hormones, and/or chromosomes. None of which are 100%.

To say that "trans men are women by sex", you would have to either 1) believe that chromosomes are the sole and overriding factor, or 2) be going solely by sex at birth, regardless of whether those above factors have changed.

It should be obvious that neither of those options actually hold much water when you look a little deeper. Chromosomes are functionally the least useful indicator of the four, for instance; they cannot be changed, but their sole function is in forming those other physical characteristics... which can be changed. Plus, throughout human history we have categorised the biological sexes without ever knowing chromosomes existed. And still, today, doctors and veterinarians determine someone's physical sex without looking at chromosomes.

And there's just no rational reason to consider "sex at birth" to be the same thing as someone's present physical sex. Scientists don't. Doctors don't. You might as well consider someone's height at birth to be their "physical height" regardless of what changes when they're an adult.

The anti-trans brigade like to believe they have science on their side, but they're actually a bunch of scientifically ignorant tools.

Bullshit, the concept of gender is older than the scientific understanding of sex. We were dividing based on gender long before we understood any of the concepts the gender critical hold up as proof of gender

Have we been dividing up chickens wrong the entirety of history as well?

Why are you more comfortable using the more general "women" when referring to all women and girls but oppose using a more general "people". The harm of one can leave girls and trans men caught out of laws that are meant to protect them and the harm of the other is it gets idiots frothing at the mouth over "culture war".

Like if you honestly believe that grouping trans women in with women will cause more harm than grouping girls in with women then it's because you're a transphobe. Or, like Tucker Carlson you think it should be fine to marry 15 year old girls.

It has nothing to do with what I'm comfortable with, it's about being uncomfortable to most innocuous shit. I work in a hospital system with about 8 main hospitals and some of them call their building/department Women's and Children's or Birthing Center or whatever, being upset over an innocuous name is pretty stupid.

You're asking the wrong question. Why are we doing things like organising sports based on what genitalia you are born with? Seems like an incredibly stupid way of organising things

Then, you just made it so women can't play sports...

Weight classes would seem to make most sense as an alternative, at least for most sports.

Men are stronger and faster at the same weights.