Pay 2 Win Acceptance

BrawlMan

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Wow, VG Cats. I haven't thought about that comic in years. But I remember that one, AND the point they were making with it. All through this thread, you have been saying basically "might as well do nothing, nothing is going to change anything." And you have been basically accusing anyone who says we have to fight back of "virtue signaling." And then you pick this particular comic to make your point.

Potatamoto = Miyamoto... 2008, the Nintendo Wii. The peas represented "core Nintendo fans" Miyamoto abandoned when everybody's grandma discovered Wii bowling and the Wii "abandoned" that "gamer core" audience. But is someone forgetting what ACTUALLY happened next? The Wii U failed miserably and then Potatamoto decided to find a way to bridge the old audience with the new one (the Switch) and once again found himself back in the graces of many of the now well fed peas as well as swimming in money.

So, "voting with your wallet" doesn't work? Because I, and apparently a lot of other Nintendo fans, never did buy that Wii U. So all I can infer is that maybe you've never changed anything by voting with your wallet... but I have. Maybe it would happen more often if more people learned that lesson.
The creator of VG Cats is an egotistical douche nozel. I don't even like his pre-2010 works. All of his comic pieces turned in to "if you don't 100% agree with my opinions or political opinions, then you're a fool!". It explains why immortalfrieza loves him so much.

If this doesn't prove to everyone that the battle was lost beyond all hope a LONG time ago you're just being unreasonable.
Said by the man with an unreasonable ego swelling in their head. Your "lesson" s nothing more than a fat, boring, joke.

But I remember that one, AND the point they were making with it. All through this thread, you have been saying basically "might as well do nothing, nothing is going to change anything." And you have been basically accusing anyone who says we have to fight back of "virtue signaling." And then you pick this particular comic to make your point.
Thank you.
 

immortalfrieza

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Wow, VG Cats. I haven't thought about that comic in years. But I remember that one, AND the point they were making with it. All through this thread, you have been saying basically "might as well do nothing, nothing is going to change anything." And you have been basically accusing anyone who says we have to fight back of "virtue signaling."
Nope. I've been saying that the gaming industry has no reason to listen to people like us, and then when people deny that basic and painfully obvious fact, I challenge them to get off their butts and actually change that. No one has been willing to actually do that. If you're not even trying to fix the problems with the gaming industry you don't have the right to shut down the people like me to are only stating what is as clear as "water is wet".
So, "voting with your wallet" doesn't work? Because I, and apparently a lot of other Nintendo fans, never did buy that Wii U. So all I can infer is that maybe you've never changed anything by voting with your wallet... but I have. Maybe it would happen more often if more people learned that lesson.
Unless you've got millions of dollars invested in them and decided to pull your support for Nintendo and as a result they listened to your grievances "voting with your wallet" never did anything. The Wii U failed due to factors that had nothing to do with "voting with your wallets", it had to do with being a crappy gimmicky system that had hardly any games worth playing on it and horrendously terrible management that led to same.

You can turn to point out how a fruit cart half full of rotten fruit that sells far better than the cart with 90% rotten fruit and claim that people are "voting with their wallets" but that cart with 50% rotten fruit still is half full of rotten fruit. Systems and games fail sometimes, even from the all mighty Nintendo, it doesn't disprove my point. Something failing once in a blue moon especially that fails to make the rest of the industry stand up and take notice much less change these awful business practices doesn't disprove what I've said. Exceptions always exist, it's the norm that matters and the norm is that the video game industry does not and has no reason to care about the people like us who actually care about video games when they've got a significantly more massive audience to draw on.

The point I was making with that comic? That what I've stated is not only true it's been true for a VERY long time to the point that other people have been making fun of it. When webcomics from over a decade ago are making fun of how even companies like Nintendo have been catering to the ignorant mass audiences over their loyal supporters that's all the proof anyone should need.
 

Kyrian007

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Nope. I've been saying that the gaming industry has no reason to listen to people like us, and then when people deny that basic and painfully obvious fact, I challenge them to get off their butts and actually change that. No one has been willing to actually do that. If you're not even trying to fix the problems with the gaming industry you don't have the right to shut down the people like me to are only stating what is as clear as "water is wet".

Unless you've got millions of dollars invested in them and decided to pull your support for Nintendo and as a result they listened to your grievances "voting with your wallet" never did anything. The Wii U failed due to factors that had nothing to do with "voting with your wallets", it had to do with being a crappy gimmicky system that had hardly any games worth playing on it and horrendously terrible management that led to same.

You can turn to point out how a fruit cart half full of rotten fruit that sells far better than the cart with 90% rotten fruit and claim that people are "voting with their wallets" but that cart with 50% rotten fruit still is half full of rotten fruit. Systems and games fail sometimes, even from the all mighty Nintendo, it doesn't disprove my point. Something failing once in a blue moon especially that fails to make the rest of the industry stand up and take notice much less change these awful business practices doesn't disprove what I've said. Exceptions always exist, it's the norm that matters and the norm is that the video game industry does not and has no reason to care about the people like us who actually care about video games when they've got a significantly more massive audience to draw on.

The point I was making with that comic? That what I've stated is not only true it's been true for a VERY long time to the point that other people have been making fun of it. When webcomics from over a decade ago are making fun of how even companies like Nintendo have been catering to the ignorant mass audiences over their loyal supporters that's all the proof anyone should need.
So, the low sales figures for the Wii U had nothing to do with the design and marketing of the Switch. That's interesting to learn. Sorry, I don't buy that logic. You also can't use a fruit analogy to explain how not buying a bad product isn't "voting with your wallet." It seems to me that indicates a "no" vote.

Exceptions always exist? Yeah, they do. When Pokemon Go took off in mainstream popularity I heard the cry from the core fans all over the internet. "They've abandoned their core fans. All they will ever make again is this mobile games for the casuals crap." But again, that's assuming they learn nothing from history. And its ignoring the history of what they did next when those "casuals" found the next big thing and moved on to whatever that next seasons flappy birds was. They didn't throw all their eggs in the "mainstream" or mobile basket. We saw a whole new generation of pokemon game and have another soon to release.

Your position reminds me of all the "X is the death of y" arguments. Supposedly pc gaming was going to die... singleplayer gaming was going to die... And yet, this month I bought a singleplayer pc game. At the beginning of this year, major gaming companies were saying NFT's were "the future of gaming." The wallet voting seems to be heading this "future" off at the pass. It is looking like lootboxes were a step too far in the realm of monetization. Resistance doesn't seem to be that futile. At least to me.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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"Giving up" implies that there's anything to actually be done. "Surrender" implies there was ever a battle that could've been won. There are situations where it doesn't matter whether you fight or you don't, it comes to the exact same end. Microtransactions, DLC, Pay 2 Win, so many other scummy business practices, all these things exist. If there was ever anything people like us could actually do about them they would've died out not long after the industry tried to implement them. Instead, they've become common practice throughout the industry and the most anyone who actually cares that it's happening really does is complain about them on forums like this.

If people honestly believe that these business practices can be curtailed how about actually doing something then?

All it would take is an industry-wide repulsion, similar to what’s slowly happening with NFTs. The problem is most industry leading voices don’t see the other ongoing scummy practices as that big of a deal.
 
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Satinavian

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Personally i don't see Pay to Win or microtransactions becoming more common. Microtransactions are huge in mobile gaming and MMOs, especially Freemium stuff. P2W is also common in mobile gaming, but slightly less pronounced in MMOs. Most other genres do DLCs instead of microtransactions, which still range from overpriced cosmetics to full blown expansions.

And that hasn't changed much for the last 2 decades. Mobile gaming was the way it is now from the vry beginning.
 

Kyrian007

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The creator of VG Cats is an egotistical douche nozel. I don't even like his pre-2010 works. All of his comic pieces turned in to "if you don't 100% agree with my opinions or political opinions, then you're a fool!". It explains why immortalfrieza loves him so much.
I thought it was the creator of Ctrl-Alt-Del that was the douche? I'm remembering something bad enough that Yhatzee took a whole ZP away from games to harp on. I don't remember VG Cats ever getting that far away from videogames and into politics... then again I stopped checking it probably sometime around 2014 or so, so pre Trump era.
 

BrawlMan

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I thought it was the creator of Ctrl-Alt-Del that was the douche? I'm remembering something bad enough that Yhatzee took a whole ZP away from games to harp on. I don't remember VG Cats ever getting that far away from videogames and into politics... then again I stopped checking it probably sometime around 2014 or so, so pre Trump era.
Yes, but the creator of VG Cats got worse around 2014 and afterwards. I say he's just about as almost bad, or about the same as Ctrl+Alt. At the end of the day, they're just another group of jackasses who have over inflated egos, or their egos grew because the success of their web comic.

I'll leave you with these.

Seasonal Rot: The later comics are generally considered to be of lower quality than the pre-2010's comics. The Dethroning Moment of Suck page in particular either has one of the later comics, or had those removed because the troper found a worse comic
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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The point I was making with that comic? That what I've stated is not only true it's been true for a VERY long time to the point that other people have been making fun of it. When webcomics from over a decade ago are making fun of how even companies like Nintendo have been catering to the ignorant mass audiences over their loyal supporters that's all the proof anyone should need.
Had we all adhered to your sad level of surrender, microtransactions would never have been changed for Battlefront II. We all would just have said "well, that's the way things are" and doled out the money.

Look, I get it. You bailed out of the boat and you're mad that we're not all in the cold water with you. Too bad; I intend to continue rowing away from you.
 
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Elvis Starburst

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So, at what point is everyone gonna realize that trying to argue with a defeatist is more or less pointless? Once someone gives up to the degree of calling the current situation 'reality', irredeemable, and unable to change without some massive upheaval of the status quo by some powerful and influential force... then that's kinda it. No amount of "try and be the change you want to see" and "just put in the effort, one person becomes thousands over time" is going to reverse that. Getting to that point means, to them, there is no hope left, and there is none to be gained. You might as well be telling a depressed person to not be depressed for all the good it'll do. There's maybe the slightest hint it might help saying these hopeful things to em, but if the person is digging their heels in to such a degree that seems immovable, then those words likely won't be the thing they need to change their mind.

This isn't me saying this without experience either, I say this as a political defeatist
 
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Gordon_4

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So, at what point is everyone gonna realize that trying to argue with a defeatist is more or less pointless? Once someone gives up to the degree of calling the current situation 'reality', irredeemable, and unable to change without some massive upheaval of the status quo by some powerful and influential force... then that's kinda it. No amount of "try and be the change you want to see" and "just put in the effort, one person becomes thousands over time" is going to reverse that. Getting to that point means, to them, there is no hope left, and there is none to be gained. You might as well be telling a depressed person to not be depressed for all the good it'll do. There's maybe the slightest hint it might help saying these hopeful things to em, but if the person is digging their heels in to such a degree that seems immovable, then those words likely won't be the thing they need to change their mind.

This isn't me saying this without experience either, I say this as a political defeatist
That works both ways. At some point your determination becomes obstinance and your message is lost. And frankly I don’t think the micro transaction is ever going to go away without a collective renaissance from within the gaming industry’s major players. Or them being replaced wholesale by new players, you know, either or.
 
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BrawlMan

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So, at what point is everyone gonna realize that trying to argue with a defeatist is more or less pointless? Once someone gives up to the degree of calling the current situation 'reality', irredeemable, and unable to change without some massive upheaval of the status quo by some powerful and influential force... then that's kinda it. No amount of "try and be the change you want to see" and "just put in the effort, one person becomes thousands over time" is going to reverse that. Getting to that point means, to them, there is no hope left, and there is none to be gained. You might as well be telling a depressed person to not be depressed for all the good it'll do. There's maybe the slightest hint it might help saying these hopeful things to em, but if the person is digging their heels in to such a degree that seems immovable, then those words likely won't be the thing they need to change their mind.

This isn't me saying this without experience either, I say this as a political defeatist
There's being depressed, and then there's acting like you know everything and getting upset, because not everyone's 100% on board with your opinion, by acting like an egotistical blowhard about it. "Waahh, you don't agree with me about not doing nothing, because you're not doing anything by playing other games! Waahhh! Whatever you do is pointless, so why bother?!". I don't joke about depression, and even if that's the case, that doesn't give them the right to act like they're the freaking experts on everything get upset, because not everyone shares the same opinion. Either fight for what's right, or don't get out of mine and everybody else's way.

That works both ways. At some point your determination becomes obstinance and your message is lost. And frankly I don’t think the micro transaction is ever going to go away without a collective renaissance from within the gaming industry’s major players. Or them being replaced wholesale by new players, you know, either or.
I know this too. There are good ways to do micro transactions and dlc, and then there's the bad way. I always prefer having a game that has as much content as possible. But with that said, I'm not against DLC if it's done well. We've seen it before, once again it's a case of quality. Sturgeon's laws always going into effect, and DLC is no different. It's called supporting the good practices. But I will always take a game that has little DLC as possible, and just be a good overall game.
 

immortalfrieza

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So, at what point is everyone gonna realize that trying to argue with a defeatist is more or less pointless? Once someone gives up to the degree of calling the current situation 'reality', irredeemable, and unable to change without some massive upheaval of the status quo by some powerful and influential force... then that's kinda it. Getting to that point means, to them, there is no hope left, and there is none to be gained.
It's pretty pointless because you're trying to argue against objective facts. Calling it "defeatist" for simply stating what are facts is a just a way to dismiss those facts to avoid facing the truth simply because one doesn't want to believe it. I wish that it wasn't hopeless, but every fact of the situation indicates that it is regardless of my desire otherwise. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get off their butts and take real action to make real difference to thus prove that those facts are false or they don't have any leg to stand on.

No amount of "try and be the change you want to see" and "just put in the effort, one person becomes thousands over time" is going to reverse that.
It's not going to reverse it because years of people "being the change they want to see" and "putting in the effort, one person becomes thousands over time" not actually changing anything have proven such platitudes to be false. People in this day and age have this warped optimism that gives them hope that things can get better despite the fact that they very clearly can't. Sometimes people say things are hopeless because they genuinely are.

The very fact that this exploitative crap still exists despite a long LONG time of gamers railing against it proves just how immutable they are. It's like not only throwing someone in a lake to prove water is wet and they come out still genuinely denying that it's wet, it's like someone who all but lives in the lake water and is currently swimming in it STILL genuinely believing water isn't wet. There comes a point when something is so readily apparent that it shouldn't even need to be stated much less defended and anyone who denies it is just being unreasonable.

If someone wants change, REAL change, the first step is to acknowledge the way things actually are, not the way you want them to be. Otherwise any efforts made are going to be completely fruitless because they're not going to actually address the issue effectively. Denying the facts of the situation does not help actually fix the problem. You can't brainstorm or act to fix a problem if you're not willing to even admit what the core of the problem is. The people who have truly given up are the ones who want a problem solved but are in denial as to why the problem exists in the first place.

Had we all adhered to your sad level of surrender, microtransactions would never have been changed for Battlefront II. We all would just have said "well, that's the way things are" and doled out the money.

Look, I get it. You bailed out of the boat and you're mad that we're not all in the cold water with you. Too bad; I intend to continue rowing away from you.
What you're doing is called "cherry picking". It's a logical fallacy where one pick the very few things that prove ones point and ignore everything else that disproves it, in almost all cases despite the latter being significantly greater. The vitriol against Battlefield II resulting in microtransations being changed didn't change the microtransations in the vast amount of video games before it that are still accessible, nor did it make the gaming industry wake up and get rid of microtransactions in the games they released afterward. When vitriol like with Battlefield II actually changing these exploitative business practices become the norm or even a large minority instead of the one in a million not to mention actually changing the industry for the better then you'll have a point that actually has ground under it.
 
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Gordon_4

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Had we all adhered to your sad level of surrender, microtransactions would never have been changed for Battlefront II. We all would just have said "well, that's the way things are" and doled out the money.

Look, I get it. You bailed out of the boat and you're mad that we're not all in the cold water with you. Too bad; I intend to continue rowing away from you.
As I recall it, it was less gamers saying - rightly to be sure - this is shit of the highest order to EA that got that change going, it was the resulting threat of litigation and regulation in the United States AND The House of Mouse sending some heavies to EA’s headquarters to ask them what the fuck they were playing at.

Had the outrage not extended beyond gamings few and proud, change would likely not have occurred at all.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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It's not being nihilistic, fatalistic, or trying to come off depressingly profound, it's called being realistic. The fact is, gamers who actually give a crap about video games are a microscopic minority and thus stopped being the primary audience a LONG time ago. Video games or otherwise, if you're not in the primary audience nobody cares what you think in an industry, and even then it's only if you're going along with a good percentage of the people in it.

The reality of the situation is that the video game industry does what it does and gets away with it because legions of gamers who don't know or don't care how blatantly they're being screwed over will support it. This is the end result of video games going from a shameful thing "nobody except losers living in their parents basement does" so says the stereotype to the mainstream thing that nearly everybody on the planet is doing to some capacity.

If you want to fight to stop a tsunami with a cup of water go ahead. Don't give some hopelessly optimistic contrarian lecture trying to come off as some noble crusader. You're not, you're just unwilling to accept what's right in front of your eyes.
Ok, so...this isn't being a 'realist' or defeatist or whatever else. This is just straight up, classic video gamer elitist bullshit. Instead of being mad at video game companies and publishers that keep pushing this awful monetized crap, you think the problem is that games are too broad, and if they stop catering towards casuals/women/'not real gamers' or what have you, and started catering to me, a real gamer, then things wouldn't suck so much.
 

Agema

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I'm perfectly happy with decorative microtransactions. You want to buy a spiffy decorative scarf for your avatar or a custom paintjob for their car, go for it.

I'm wary about excessive DLC (Paradox) where huge amounts of content that materially alters the game is locked behind a welter of paid-for upgrades. Some Paradox games, to buy the whole kit and kaboodle, are the equivalent of 3-4 full price games. But you're not getting the value of 3-4 full price games. If you want a pay to win in a single player game, as far as I care that's up to the discretion of the buyer: although it's probably easier to just put the difficulty setting on easy.

Pay to win in multiplayer is an abomination. A game where a player can hand over money and get a critical competitive advantage over other players deserves to be condemned to a pit of hell. I played World of Tanks: that is perpetually teetering on the brink of pay to win (as opposed to pay to alleviate grind, which it definitely is).
 

immortalfrieza

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Ok, so...this isn't being a 'realist' or defeatist or whatever else. This is just straight up, classic video gamer elitist bullshit. Instead of being mad at video game companies and publishers that keep pushing this awful monetized crap, you think the problem is that games are too broad, and if they stop catering towards casuals/women/'not real gamers' or what have you, and started catering to me, a real gamer, then things wouldn't suck so much.
I couldn't honestly give a damn who the video game industry is catering to. It's not elitist to state that the source of the problem is the source of the problem. The fact that the gaming industry's primary audience is casual gamers who by definition only pick up any random video game that will kill an afternoon and then just move on without giving it a second thought is in fact why things suck so much, yes. People who actually care about video games like just about everybody on these forums have been complaining and boycotting games that do these terrible business practices for years now and assuming all of them are actually sticking to that they haven't impacted sales enough to actually stop these practices from existing. Where then, is the market that allows these business practices to exist and flourish coming from?

The answer? The only other group of gamers that exist, casual gamers. Casual gamers vastly outnumber hardcore gamers by several orders of magnitude. Of course casual gamers are the audience that the video game industry is using these business practices to exploit! By definition they don't care that they're being exploited because video games are just a bit of fun they can take or leave whenever they want to.
 
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