Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

tippy2k2

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Some states are coming out and either throwing their support or putting in some kind of laws/executive orders to not only protect abortion in their states but stating they will refuse to assist other states if they choose to go after their citizens who go to their states for abortions.

This could get extra spicy if push eventually comes to shove...
 

tstorm823

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You'd rather have the power belonging to the government than to the people.

Good to know.
Governance is both by the people and for the people. A limitation on governance takes power away from the people in a system of self-governance.
 
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tstorm823

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This logic could apply just as easily to same sex marriage. Preventing a man marrying a man is preventing a man from doing what we allow a woman to do. The supreme court justices are simply not interested in bringing arguments up if they run contrary to personal sympathies.
I mean, the example I was using was literally multiple conservative justices using that exact logic in a situation that runs contrary to their personal sympathies.

That logic was not used in Obergefell because the Supreme Court was trying to take a stricter stance. It could be an option to just not have the state involved in marriage licensing (which is the option I think is actually most reasonable, we can stop legally discriminating based on romantic relationship status altogether), and by inventing a fundamental right to marriage, the Supreme Court rules out that sort of system as well. It was not simply "you can't have straight marriage but not gay marriage", it was "you must have gay marriage, period".
How do you feel about the fact that such a finding could end up making it illegal to take contraception or have a same-sex relationship? I mean the practical, tangible outcome the finding would have. That's what people are cut up about.
It wouldn't do that. It could allow other governmental entities to do those things, but this Supreme Court isn't about to make any of those things illegal.
 

evilneko

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Governance is both by the people and for the people. A limitation on governance takes power away from the people in a system of self-governance.
Sure would be nice if it worked that way, but no.

A limitation on governmental power equates to power given to the people. For example, abortion. To grant this power to the people, the government must be forbidden from taking it away.

The enumeration of rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage those held by the people.
 

Trunkage

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Yeah, she definitely called em deplorables and not degenerates, I'm 100% serious. I know it sounds pretty unbelievable lol.
No, not about that.

You said people were outraged at being called names and not helping

You also, a few quotes ago, was so outraged at the media that you said it pretty much destroyed America (so much so that you can't blame Tramp for... anything). The last thing I would call that quote, or most of your quotes, was helpful. You failed your own standard

There is a reason why I keep pointing this out. For some reason you hold one side up to insane lofty utopian heights and everyone else can shit everywhere

Anyway, the liberal media did focus on the economic and social policies of Trump. They pointed them out plenty. It didn't matter because they also pointed out that rhetoric used when Trump talked about the policies. I.e. Them bringing up Trump calling Mexicans rapist and murderers during he discussion of building a wall and other immigration issues. They were inextricably linked, sometimes stated in the same sentence. I.e. The calling of names was the reason why he was putting up the wall. Unless you are going to say, "Trump wants to build a wall' and not go into his reasoning why he thinks a wall is needed, you cant get away from him calling Mexican names. It's WHY I picked Trump calling people murderers and rapist. That IS is economic and social policy

Trump wanted to deflect from his rhetoric, so he told you that the media was being mean. And you fell for that. I don't have CNN, or any other Us liberal media. I just heard his speeches on YouTube. Claiming that the media caused that nonsense is so dumb

Also anyway, ' Normal people don't give a damn someone is called a rapist pedophile just like how they don't care when the other side calls people racist or white supremacist.' If you noticed in Florida, there is a lot of talk of teacher grooming. Now teachers are losing jobs over nothing. You might have noticed that trasnspeople have been banned from sport based on them being bad and taking women's rights. You might have noticed that abortions are becoming illegal because women who have abortions are murderers. You might have noticed that the green new deal is still a long way off because clearly its evil Marxism taking over (This is partially the Dems fault). You are never going to get M4A until some of the Republicans vote with the Dems but that's impossible because poor people don't deserve health care.

You cant get anything through until you remove at least enough prejudice for that prejudice not to block things. The NRA has, at most, had 5 million member at one time. Yet, it dominates the gun control debate. The KKK never had that many members but it dominated decades of America's political life. I'm 99% sure you complained about cancel culture. Well here it is. You can't help people when they are being bullied out of existence.

Much of this 'Hillary is to blame for everything' is just trying to wipe away any guilt you have in this. If you abstained, you are at fault just as much as Hillary. All sides on the left could not work together to beat Trump. And the worst part is, now that those abstained in 2016 took themselves out, the Dems move RIGHT. The opposite happened of what you imagine. Because you gave control of the party to the conservatives of the party. Congrats on giving people like Machin all the power. What the FUCK did you think would happen, magical Lefty Utopia if you don't vote? How can a person be that far up their own ass that they couldn't see the problem with their own logic? Bernie or Busters owned themselves

Anyway, anyway. You didn't bother answering some questions. These are really important because you told some fibs and we need to deal with it. WHICH media organisation were claiming that Hillary calling people 'basket of deplorables' was bad. Because YOU claimed it was liberal media blah blah wanting decorum. And you claimed that these liberal medias wanting decorum caused Trump to win. I just want to point to the liberal media that was so worried about decorum over 'basket of deplorables' '

HOW will letting everyone calling each murderers and rapist help? That just sounds like more cancel culture. None of this 'normal people don't listen to insults' fibs. If that was true, you wouldn't have said what you said about liberal media or Hillary as a justification for ignoring them. YOU know what the power of insults are and you used them. None of that nonsense that you don't believe

(Note: I think Hillary was a terrible candidate. But then, I dont see any good ones. Including Bernie. She is definitely at fault, as is the DNC. So is Bernie, Warren, Trump, all media on both sides and GOP and the American population in general. You played with fire, dont be surprised when you get burned.)
 
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Dalisclock

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Some states are coming out and either throwing their support or putting in some kind of laws/executive orders to not only protect abortion in their states but stating they will refuse to assist other states if they choose to go after their citizens who go to their states for abortions.

This could get extra spicy if push eventually comes to shove...
Oh, I can guarantee certain red states are gonna get super butthurt when neighboring blue states are more then happy to let people come over and get abortions in places where it's actually legal. Oh, and spend money in those blue states as well.

And the Blue states are gonna tell them to suck it and pound sand. Especially in states where abortion access is codified into state law.

What's really interesting and scary is that in the 19th century, Slave states demanded Free states stop sheltering slaves that made their way out of the South and resulted in the Fugitive Slave Act, despite the fact Slavery was Illegal in those states.

States Rights for me, not for thee.
 

Trunkage

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Sure would be nice if it worked that way, but no.

A limitation on governmental power equates to power given to the people. For example, abortion. To grant this power to the people, the government must be forbidden from taking it away.

The enumeration of rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage those held by the people.
How about I paraphrase what I think you're saying.

Self-determination is nice. Unfortunately, there are private groups very willing to take your self-determination away, Eg. NRA, Westboro, John Birch society, Rand

Yep, they can ban you from doing things through the electoral process. They would also do this way easier without it. They could just charge in and smash everything up. See Reconstruction, Black Codes WW1 and Red Scares era for examples of this.

Now, I would agree with Tstorm. Limiting governments power is the way to go... until I noticed what happened in the US. Conservatives there managed to abuse this good idea and turning limiting the government's power into an Authoritarian regime. It's would be incredible if it weren't so Ayatollah

Now no one can rely on restricting governments power to be helpful and they can run rampant either way
 

Terminal Blue

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Governance is both by the people and for the people. A limitation on governance takes power away from the people in a system of self-governance.
"We fascists are the only true anarchists.."

Imagine a society with no limitations on governance, where people can be forced into slavery or burned to death in ovens because "the people" (meaning the govenrment) will it.

The foundation of the modern democratic state is that people accept limitations on their power and capacity to act in order to protect the rights of others. If you don't want to play by those rules any more, don't be surprised if everyone else stops playing by them too.
 
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tstorm823

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The foundation of the modern democratic state is that people accept limitations on their power and capacity to act in order to protect the rights of others.
"Accept" is an operative word I think you're just sort of glossing over.
 

Dreiko

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And that means that what happened is a good thing because those doing it defined it as such. Yet people are not happy, hence my point that relying on a subjective definition of good and bad, and just randomly expecting everyone to share that opinion as if it's a fact an not, in fact, an opinion, doesn't make sense.
 

Dreiko

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No, not about that.

You said people were outraged at being called names and not helping

You also, a few quotes ago, was so outraged at the media that you said it pretty much destroyed America (so much so that you can't blame Tramp for... anything). The last thing I would call that quote, or most of your quotes, was helpful. You failed your own standard

There is a reason why I keep pointing this out. For some reason you hold one side up to insane lofty utopian heights and everyone else can shit everywhere

Anyway, the liberal media did focus on the economic and social policies of Trump. They pointed them out plenty. It didn't matter because they also pointed out that rhetoric used when Trump talked about the policies. I.e. Them bringing up Trump calling Mexicans rapist and murderers during he discussion of building a wall and other immigration issues. They were inextricably linked, sometimes stated in the same sentence. I.e. The calling of names was the reason why he was putting up the wall. Unless you are going to say, "Trump wants to build a wall' and not go into his reasoning why he thinks a wall is needed, you cant get away from him calling Mexican names. It's WHY I picked Trump calling people murderers and rapist. That IS is economic and social policy

Trump wanted to deflect from his rhetoric, so he told you that the media was being mean. And you fell for that. I don't have CNN, or any other Us liberal media. I just heard his speeches on YouTube. Claiming that the media caused that nonsense is so dumb

Also anyway, ' Normal people don't give a damn someone is called a rapist pedophile just like how they don't care when the other side calls people racist or white supremacist.' If you noticed in Florida, there is a lot of talk of teacher grooming. Now teachers are losing jobs over nothing. You might have noticed that trasnspeople have been banned from sport based on them being bad and taking women's rights. You might have noticed that abortions are becoming illegal because women who have abortions are murderers. You might have noticed that the green new deal is still a long way off because clearly its evil Marxism taking over (This is partially the Dems fault). You are never going to get M4A until some of the Republicans vote with the Dems but that's impossible because poor people don't deserve health care.

You cant get anything through until you remove at least enough prejudice for that prejudice not to block things. The NRA has, at most, had 5 million member at one time. Yet, it dominates the gun control debate. The KKK never had that many members but it dominated decades of America's political life. I'm 99% sure you complained about cancel culture. Well here it is. You can't help people when they are being bullied out of existence.

Much of this 'Hillary is to blame for everything' is just trying to wipe away any guilt you have in this. If you abstained, you are at fault just as much as Hillary. All sides on the left could not work together to beat Trump. And the worst part is, now that those abstained in 2016 took themselves out, the Dems move RIGHT. The opposite happened of what you imagine. Because you gave control of the party to the conservatives of the party. Congrats on giving people like Machin all the power. What the FUCK did you think would happen, magical Lefty Utopia if you don't vote? How can a person be that far up their own ass that they couldn't see the problem with their own logic? Bernie or Busters owned themselves

Anyway, anyway. You didn't bother answering some questions. These are really important because you told some fibs and we need to deal with it. WHICH media organisation were claiming that Hillary calling people 'basket of deplorables' was bad. Because YOU claimed it was liberal media blah blah wanting decorum. And you claimed that these liberal medias wanting decorum caused Trump to win. I just want to point to the liberal media that was so worried about decorum over 'basket of deplorables' '

HOW will letting everyone calling each murderers and rapist help? That just sounds like more cancel culture. None of this 'normal people don't listen to insults' fibs. If that was true, you wouldn't have said what you said about liberal media or Hillary as a justification for ignoring them. YOU know what the power of insults are and you used them. None of that nonsense that you don't believe

(Note: I think Hillary was a terrible candidate. But then, I dont see any good ones. Including Bernie. She is definitely at fault, as is the DNC. So is Bernie, Warren, Trump, all media on both sides and GOP and the American population in general. You played with fire, dont be surprised when you get burned.)
The media had no problems criticizing Trump's economics but that is useless because Trump is a republican and people who vote for republicans don't vote for economics. Trump is the low hanging fruit basically. You get no cookies for criticizing him.

What they ought to have done is criticized Clinton's economics during the primaries, since they're actually not that far off from Trump's either, but they were too busy complaining that Bernie brought up her speech given to banks and how much money she got for it. And hey I actually voted for her so I get to say all this, I wasn't Bernie or bust. So yeah, now I will complain all day about them cause they were supposed to win if I was a mature adult and voted for them despite my principles lol.

Also no I wasn't talking about the media wanting decorum with that comment, I didn't mention it at all in that post in fact. I was talking about Hillary herself acting like a haughty noble and condemning the unwashed mashes for breaking decorum, which is how she came off with that line.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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And that means that what happened is a good thing because those doing it defined it as such. Yet people are not happy, hence my point that relying on a subjective definition of good and bad, and just randomly expecting everyone to share that opinion as if it's a fact an not, in fact, an opinion, doesn't make sense.
So?

Pointing put that different people have an opinion on what's good and bad is obvious. I'm not somehow ignorant of that fact.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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He's *desperately* trying to walk that back by claiming he was only comparing how long Plessy was precedent, but that kinda fails because A) Plessy relegated segregation rules to the states instead of the federal level like repealing Roe does, and B) more than a few GOP members and conservatives or on record saying Brown *should* be overturned and segregation put back into state hands.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Governance is both by the people and for the people. A limitation on governance takes power away from the people in a system of self-governance.
What does that have to do with the United States?
 

Silvanus

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That logic was not used in Obergefell because the Supreme Court was trying to take a stricter stance. It could be an option to just not have the state involved in marriage licensing (which is the option I think is actually most reasonable, we can stop legally discriminating based on romantic relationship status altogether), and by inventing a fundamental right to marriage, the Supreme Court rules out that sort of system as well. It was not simply "you can't have straight marriage but not gay marriage", it was "you must have gay marriage, period".
Right, but you and I both know the outcome if Obergefell is overturned. The SCOTUS won't then choose to allow same sex marriage on other grounds, and it won't remove the state from marriage licensing. It'll create a situation whereby States can go back to allowing straight marriage and not gay marriage. That's what would actually happen.

It wouldn't do that. It could allow other governmental entities to do those things, but this Supreme Court isn't about to make any of those things illegal.
Giving the go ahead for other governmental entities to outlaw something is making it illegal and washing your hands afterwards.
 
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tstorm823

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Giving the go ahead for other governmental entities to outlaw something is making it illegal and washing your hands afterwards.
You don't have to wash your hands of responsibility you never legitimately had in the first place.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Indeed they cannot merely say "because I said so"; they rather need to churn out some written sophistry to justify the decision they would personally like to make anyway.
That's just legal realism. The problem comes not with an individual case's disposition, but what that disposition might be used for later as precedent. I'm going to give you an example using a presumptive challenge to Obergefell.

A conservative scrotus supermajority, as I described earlier, can't attack Obergefell without basically invalidating Carolene Products footnote four and throwing strict scrutiny out the window. Footnote four is such an overwhelmingly strong precedent at this point, regardless of individual justices' ideology, that it has completely overshadowed the case upon which it is based (a straightforward Commerce Clause question, this will come up later) and at this point carries the judicial might of a full-on Constitutional amendment. It's nearly as important to 20th and 21st Century jurisprudence, as Marbury v. Madison which is the case establishing judicial review in the first place.

Footnote four is at the heart of every single civil rights and liberties case that has been put before the Court since its authorship, as it is the basis for which standard of review applies. That includes the Second Amendment.

Conservative court throws footnote four out the window today in Homophobic Peckerwood v. GLAAD, liberal court cites Peckerwood to apply rational basis to Yeehaw Rednecks United v. Gun-Shy Liberal Fop tomorrow.

Now, remember my earlier allusion to the Commerce Clause?

Such is not a great barrier, and has been done countless times to overturn laws that were perfectly legally sound, but which the justices did not like.
So in Heart of Atlanta Motel, the Court's only legal basis for upholding Title II of the 1964 Civil Rights Act was...the motel was near an interstate. Literally, that's it. The Court had to rely on one of the most laughably overbroad interpretations of the Commerce Clause in US history, and a fucking map, to uphold the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Likewise, Griswold saw the codification of William O. Douglas' famous "penumbras" argument to establish Constitutional basis and protection for unenumerated rights (in this case, privacy), in the face of the then-prevailing legal maxim expressio unius est exclusio alterius, under which there is no fundamental right to privacy. In other words, Douglas cut an entirely new legal principle out of whole cloth, hoping it would stick and that later Courts would not be so foolish as to challenge it. Privacy isn't an "emanation" of the First, Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments; it's the foundation for the First, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments.

And to be quite honest, Roe was one of the weakest precedents in the Court's history. Norma McCorvey had already given birth by the time the case was granted cert; it was therefore moot, and the Court had to fabricate basis for itself to hear the case. Which was the Court's very intent -- it wanted to create basis for jurisdiction in controversies that would never see cases make their way to it before they became moot. And last but not least, McCorvey's standing was questionable (to say the least) as she'd perjured herself in her attempt to secure a legal abortion in the first place, having falsely claimed she'd been gang raped by black men.

Which is why the pressure was on Congress to codify Roe in federal statute, in the first place. Now it's "merely" going to take a Constitutional amendment, and good luck with that.

So...what you're saying? That's a two-way door. Be careful -- very careful -- what you wish for.
 
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