Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

Eacaraxe

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So they're gonna say they're up for impeaching them for lying under oath to the Senate, right? RIGHT?

Of course they aren't. They don't actually care.
Uhh...it's actually rarer to find SCOTUS Justices who actually do what they say they'll do during confirmation hearings, than the other way round. Most notably during the lifetimes of most who frequent this forum, Anthony Kennedy and John Roberts; both were nominated with an expectation by Reagan and Bush respectively to be party-line conservative, and turned out more moderate than expected. Then, the curious case of Sandra Day O'Connor, a Reagan appointee excoriated by Republicans as too moderate, but was presented as hardline pro-life. And when confirmed, O'Connor turned out to be an ideal conservative Justice in every instance save abortion.

I will cede this seems to be a trait unique to Republican appointees, however. For example, Ginsburg could be charitably said to be a fairweather friend on civil rights issues, in the face of her infamously combative confirmation hearing.
 
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Silvanus

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That's just legal realism. The problem comes not with an individual case's disposition, but what that disposition might be used for later as precedent. I'm going to give you an example using a presumptive challenge to Obergefell.

A conservative scrotus supermajority, as I described earlier, can't attack Obergefell without basically invalidating Carolene Products footnote four and throwing strict scrutiny out the window. Footnote four is such an overwhelmingly strong precedent at this point, regardless of individual justices' ideology, that it has completely overshadowed the case upon which it is based (a straightforward Commerce Clause question, this will come up later) and at this point carries the judicial might of a full-on Constitutional amendment. It's nearly as important to 20th and 21st Century jurisprudence, as Marbury v. Madison which is the case establishing judicial review in the first place.

Footnote four is at the heart of every single civil rights and liberties case that has been put before the Court since its authorship, as it is the basis for which standard of review applies. That includes the Second Amendment.

Conservative court throws footnote four out the window today in Homophobic Peckerwood v. GLAAD, liberal court cites Peckerwood to apply rational basis to Yeehaw Rednecks United v. Gun-Shy Liberal Fop tomorrow.

Now, remember my earlier allusion to the Commerce Clause?


So in Heart of Atlanta Motel, the Court's only legal basis for upholding Title II of the 1964 Civil Rights Act was...the motel was near an interstate. Literally, that's it. The Court had to rely on one of the most laughably overbroad interpretations of the Commerce Clause in US history, and a fucking map, to uphold the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Likewise, Griswold saw the codification of William O. Douglas' famous "penumbras" argument to establish Constitutional basis and protection for unenumerated rights (in this case, privacy), in the face of the then-prevailing legal maxim expressio unius est exclusio alterius, under which there is no fundamental right to privacy. In other words, Douglas cut an entirely new legal principle out of whole cloth, hoping it would stick and that later Courts would not be so foolish as to challenge it. Privacy isn't an "emanation" of the First, Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments; it's the foundation for the First, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments.

And to be quite honest, Roe was one of the weakest precedents in the Court's history. Norma McCorvey had already given birth by the time the case was granted cert; it was therefore moot, and the Court had to fabricate basis for itself to hear the case. Which was the Court's very intent -- it wanted to create basis for jurisdiction in controversies that would never see cases make their way to it before they became moot. And last but not least, McCorvey's standing was questionable (to say the least) as she'd perjured herself in her attempt to secure a legal abortion in the first place, having falsely claimed she'd been gang raped by black men.

Which is why the pressure was on Congress to codify Roe in federal statute, in the first place. Now it's "merely" going to take a Constitutional amendment, and good luck with that.

So...what you're saying? That's a two-way door. Be careful -- very careful -- what you wish for.
So in essence, your contention is that you don't believe the conservative justices would risk creating a precedent that could be used by liberal justices in the future.

That hasn't stopped them before, and it wouldn't stop them now.

You don't have to wash your hands of responsibility you never legitimately had in the first place.
You've implied that you'd be fine with them protecting same sex marriage under a sexual equality argument. So you do recognise that it can fall under their jurisdiction.

They intend to pick and choose: reasoning A is not a legitimate use of our power.... and although reasoning B is a legitimate use of our power, and could have the same outcome, we will simply not invoke it. This is a purely political selective wielding of the power in question.
 

Specter Von Baren

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That's just legal realism. The problem comes not with an individual case's disposition, but what that disposition might be used for later as precedent. I'm going to give you an example using a presumptive challenge to Obergefell.

A conservative scrotus supermajority, as I described earlier, can't attack Obergefell without basically invalidating Carolene Products footnote four and throwing strict scrutiny out the window. Footnote four is such an overwhelmingly strong precedent at this point, regardless of individual justices' ideology, that it has completely overshadowed the case upon which it is based (a straightforward Commerce Clause question, this will come up later) and at this point carries the judicial might of a full-on Constitutional amendment. It's nearly as important to 20th and 21st Century jurisprudence, as Marbury v. Madison which is the case establishing judicial review in the first place.

Footnote four is at the heart of every single civil rights and liberties case that has been put before the Court since its authorship, as it is the basis for which standard of review applies. That includes the Second Amendment.

Conservative court throws footnote four out the window today in Homophobic Peckerwood v. GLAAD, liberal court cites Peckerwood to apply rational basis to Yeehaw Rednecks United v. Gun-Shy Liberal Fop tomorrow.

Now, remember my earlier allusion to the Commerce Clause?


So in Heart of Atlanta Motel, the Court's only legal basis for upholding Title II of the 1964 Civil Rights Act was...the motel was near an interstate. Literally, that's it. The Court had to rely on one of the most laughably overbroad interpretations of the Commerce Clause in US history, and a fucking map, to uphold the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Likewise, Griswold saw the codification of William O. Douglas' famous "penumbras" argument to establish Constitutional basis and protection for unenumerated rights (in this case, privacy), in the face of the then-prevailing legal maxim expressio unius est exclusio alterius, under which there is no fundamental right to privacy. In other words, Douglas cut an entirely new legal principle out of whole cloth, hoping it would stick and that later Courts would not be so foolish as to challenge it. Privacy isn't an "emanation" of the First, Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments; it's the foundation for the First, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments.

And to be quite honest, Roe was one of the weakest precedents in the Court's history. Norma McCorvey had already given birth by the time the case was granted cert; it was therefore moot, and the Court had to fabricate basis for itself to hear the case. Which was the Court's very intent -- it wanted to create basis for jurisdiction in controversies that would never see cases make their way to it before they became moot. And last but not least, McCorvey's standing was questionable (to say the least) as she'd perjured herself in her attempt to secure a legal abortion in the first place, having falsely claimed she'd been gang raped by black men.

Which is why the pressure was on Congress to codify Roe in federal statute, in the first place. Now it's "merely" going to take a Constitutional amendment, and good luck with that.

So...what you're saying? That's a two-way door. Be careful -- very careful -- what you wish for.
What is "Carolene Products footnote four"?

Also, I'm not sure talking about precedence will get you very far. Foresight on how precedence can effect the future is one of the great weaknesses of seemingly most of the people that debate in Current Events.
 

Terminal Blue

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"Accept" is an operative word I think you're just sort of glossing over.
Limitations are built into the legal and political structure of a democracy.

The supreme court is the highest judicial body in the US. It is intentionally separate from congress, which is the highest legislative body, in order to prevent a concentration of power in one or the other. Whether it is actually fit for purpose in that role is another matter, but a hypothetical democracy without a separation of powers is not a democracy, or at the very least will not remain a democracy for very long.

In a representative democracy, we don't vote for legislation. In fact, we aren't any more involved in legislative decision making process than we are in the judicial decision making process. "Self governance" means that we vote to elect representatives who make decisions on our behalf. The limitations of a healthy democratic system are designed to ensure that if someone manipulates their way into office by appealing to ignorant populism or religious zeal, they cannot use their position to dismantle the system itself. It doesn't always work, but it's better than having nothing and just hoping everyone who gets elected is acting in good faith.

US conservatives seem to have this delusion that weak federal government and strong state legislatures will result in less authoritarianism. In fact, what we're seeing is in many ways the opposite. State legislatures are prone to domination by theocratic curtain-twitchers who delight at every opportunity to use their power to make the lives of everyone they don't like miserable.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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US conservatives seem to have this delusion that weak federal government and strong state legislatures will result in less authoritarianism.
Oh, they never actually believed this; it was a lie they fed the rest of us. Look at how fast they went from "abortion should be an issue left to the states" to "it's time for a nationwide ban on abortion".
 

Eacaraxe

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So in essence, your contention is that you don't believe the conservative justices would risk creating a precedent that could be used by liberal justices in the future.

That hasn't stopped them before, and it wouldn't stop them now.
My argument is you've fallen for the same pratfall most legal realists do: confusing agreement with an opinion, with that opinion's strength. Legal realism simply does not, and cannot, account for strength of argument, weight of precedent, and consequence of opinion. As I originally anted into the conversation: Dred Scott was one of the most morally repugnant opinions in Supreme Court history, but that doesn't mean it was a weak opinion; if it were, it wouldn't have required two Constitutional amendments to rectify, with a jurisprudential legacy that continued for a century thereafter.

Realism is reductive; it boils down jurisprudence to a mere matter of jurists' ideologies. Before you say it, yes, legal positivism is no better in its own ways. Hence why I'm an interpretivist, but that's neither here nor there.

What is "Carolene Products footnote four"?
Not that the case matters, but it was about Congress' power to regulate the dairy industry and the Court found in Congress' favor.

Footnote four was an addendum to the opinion, authored by Harlan Stone. The default standard of review is/was rational basis, by which a law is deemed Constitutional if it is reasonably related to a legitimate government interest; under rational basis, the burden of proof is on petitioner to demonstrate the law in question is not. In footnote four, Stone suggested that laws which facially violate fundamental rights (particularly those enumerated in the Bill of Rights), restrict political processes, and/or discriminate against "discrete and insular" minorities ought to be subject to a higher standard of review than rational basis.

In other words, it laid the groundwork for suspect classification and strict scrutiny. Suspect classification being the "discrete and insular minorities" discussed by Stone, and strict scrutiny the highest standard of review the courts can apply. Under strict scrutiny, the burden of proof is placed instead on the state to prove laws in question are the least-restrictive means to achieve a compelling government interest. It's in practice more complicated than that, but that's the first-year con law version.

Now, here's where my response(s) to Silvanus come back into play. Suspect classification and strict scrutiny were both introduced to American jurisprudence in Yasui and Hirabayashi v. United States (Korematsu came a year later). The Court classified Japanese-Americans as a suspect class, applied strict scrutiny, and proceeded to rule Japanese-American internment was the least restrictive means to achieve compelling government interest: national security at a time of war.

Here's the problem with that: how does one overturn Yasui, Hirabayashi, and Korematsu without inadvertently creating precedent for eliminating suspect classification and strict scrutiny? You really can't, and those cases never actually have been overturned. Luckily, it didn't prove to be a major problem in the long run...that is, until someone rammed some passenger airplanes into a couple buildings, and the federal government got a taste for extraordinarily rendering, detaining, and torturing brown men with funny names.

US conservatives seem to have this delusion that weak federal government and strong state legislatures will result in less authoritarianism. In fact, what we're seeing is in many ways the opposite. State legislatures are prone to domination by theocratic curtain-twitchers who delight at every opportunity to use their power to make the lives of everyone they don't like miserable.
Sure, that's the line useful idiots gobble up; the reality is it's social engineering of, by, and for conservative think tanks and organizations like ALEC, to bypass the federal government and its inconvenient checks and balances, to enact their legislative will.
 
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RhombusHatesYou

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The supreme court is the highest judicial body in the US. It is intentionally separate from congress, which is the highest legislative body, in order to prevent a concentration of power in one or the other. Whether it is actually fit for purpose in that role is another matter, but a hypothetical democracy without a separation of powers is not a democracy, or at the very least will not remain a democracy for very long.
Errr... When it comes to an independent judiciary, yes. However, that's only part of a full separation of powers which also requires the legislative and executive branches to be independent of one another and a number of democracies don't have that and happily chug along with that state of affairs.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Not that the case matters, but it was about Congress' power to regulate the dairy industry and the Court found in Congress' favor.

Footnote four was an addendum to the opinion, authored by Harlan Stone. The default standard of review is/was rational basis, by which a law is deemed Constitutional if it is reasonably related to a legitimate government interest; under rational basis, the burden of proof is on petitioner to demonstrate the law in question is not. In footnote four, Stone suggested that laws which facially violate fundamental rights (particularly those enumerated in the Bill of Rights), restrict political processes, and/or discriminate against "discrete and insular" minorities ought to be subject to a higher standard of review than rational basis.

In other words, it laid the groundwork for suspect classification and strict scrutiny. Suspect classification being the "discrete and insular minorities" discussed by Stone, and strict scrutiny the highest standard of review the courts can apply. Under strict scrutiny, the burden of proof is placed instead on the state to prove laws in question are the least-restrictive means to achieve a compelling government interest. It's in practice more complicated than that, but that's the first-year con law version.

Now, here's where my response(s) to Silvanus come back into play. Suspect classification and strict scrutiny were both introduced to American jurisprudence in Yasui and Hirabayashi v. United States (Korematsu came a year later). The Court classified Japanese-Americans as a suspect class, applied strict scrutiny, and proceeded to rule Japanese-American internment was the least restrictive means to achieve compelling government interest: national security at a time of war.

Here's the problem with that: how does one overturn Yasui, Hirabayashi, and Korematsu without inadvertently creating precedent for eliminating suspect classification and strict scrutiny? You really can't, and those cases never actually have been overturned. Luckily, it didn't prove to be a major problem in the long run...that is, until someone rammed some passenger airplanes into a couple buildings, and the federal government got a taste for extraordinarily rendering, detaining, and torturing brown men with funny names.
I vaguely remember reading about the dairy industry shenanigans, anyway, thank you for explaining, even if it's still hard for me to understand all the law talk.
 

Terminal Blue

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Errr... When it comes to an independent judiciary, yes. However, that's only part of a full separation of powers which also requires the legislative and executive branches to be independent of one another and a number of democracies don't have that and happily chug along with that state of affairs.
From the standpoint of purely abstract political theory, I don't think it really matters how separation is conducted as long as separation exists.

The biggest problem with the US system of democracy, I think, is not its separation of powers but the fact that it is a system designed to ensure two dominant parties. This is convenient because it allows for the exclusion of political ideas that threaten the economic dominance of the extremely wealthy people who fund both parties, but it will also lead inevitably to the reduction of all political life to the largely imaginary conflict between those two parties who ultimately represent the same interests anyway.

The "culture war" might be a silly and memey thing for us very online people, but it reflects something quite real. Americans are some of the most educated, progressive and secular people on the planet and simultaneously some of the most conspiratorial, reactionary and anti-secular people on the planet. There are two distinct political cultures in America which are becoming increasingly incapable of coexistence, and I suspect it's going to end very badly without substantial reform of the political system.
 

Silvanus

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My argument is you've fallen for the same pratfall most legal realists do: confusing agreement with an opinion, with that opinion's strength. Legal realism simply does not, and cannot, account for strength of argument, weight of precedent, and consequence of opinion. As I originally anted into the conversation: Dred Scott was one of the most morally repugnant opinions in Supreme Court history, but that doesn't mean it was a weak opinion; if it were, it wouldn't have required two Constitutional amendments to rectify, with a jurisprudential legacy that continued for a century thereafter.

Realism is reductive; it boils down jurisprudence to a mere matter of jurists' ideologies. Before you say it, yes, legal positivism is no better in its own ways. Hence why I'm an interpretivist, but that's neither here nor there.
I fail to see how this relates to my point.

Legal realism ends up placing ideology above strength of case. Yeah, no duh; my point from the start has been that that's what the SCOTUS are doing, with some written waffle churned out to dress it up as jurisprudence.

So if you believe the SCOTUS are going to consider themselves bound by precedence and the strength of arguments they don't personally agree with, you're projecting. You're not merely criticising legal realism when you say so; you're wrongly inferring that the justices themselves aren't going to take the realist's route.

My point was never that legal realism is good and proper. It was that the SCOTUS justices themselves will use whatever reasoning is convenient.
 

Kwak

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He's *desperately* trying to walk that back by claiming he was only comparing how long Plessy was precedent, but that kinda fails because A) Plessy relegated segregation rules to the states instead of the federal level like repealing Roe does, and B) more than a few GOP members and conservatives or on record saying Brown *should* be overturned and segregation put back into state hands.
Context for the uneducated masses please?
 
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tstorm823

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Context for the uneducated masses please?
Left-wing person complains Supreme Court is overturning decades of precedent.
Republican points to the racially discriminating rulings of the past that stood much longer before getting overturned, but which everyone agrees were wrongfully decided.
Users here somehow think that's a bad response.
 
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Eacaraxe

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I fail to see how this relates to my point.

Legal realism ends up placing ideology above strength of case. Yeah, no duh; my point from the start has been that that's what the SCOTUS are doing, with some written waffle churned out to dress it up as jurisprudence.

So if you believe the SCOTUS are going to consider themselves bound by precedence and the strength of arguments they don't personally agree with, you're projecting. You're not merely criticising legal realism when you say so; you're wrongly inferring that the justices themselves aren't going to take the realist's route.

My point was never that legal realism is good and proper. It was that the SCOTUS justices themselves will use whatever reasoning is convenient.
I'm going to put this in as simple terms as possible. You have to either:

A. Be internally consistent in your reasoning, and apply that critique to all cases including ones which you may agree with. For instance, I pointed out the landmark opinion upholding the 1964 Civil Rights Act was decided on the basis a motel was near an interstate. If that isn't "written waffle...[dressed] up as jurisprudence" as well, you're not consistent in your reasoning. Or,

B. Admit there's a fair bit more brainwork that goes into opinion-craft, respective to precedent, that opinion's staying power, and potential ramifications, than you're comfortable admitting.

Otherwise, it sounds an awful lot to me like you're the one projecting here. You're the one discounting opinions with which you disagree irrespective of case facts or ratio, on this idea Justices overturn laws with which they disagree irrespective of case facts or ratio.
 
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Silvanus

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I'm going to put this in as simple terms as possible.
Oh, how nice of you *rolleyes*


You have to either:

A. Be internally consistent in your reasoning, and apply that critique to all cases including ones which you may agree with. For instance, I pointed out the landmark opinion upholding the 1964 Civil Rights Act was decided on the basis a motel was near an interstate. If that isn't "written waffle...[dressed] up as jurisprudence" as well, you're not consistent in your reasoning. Or,

B. Admit there's a fair bit more brainwork that goes into opinion-craft, respective to precedent, that opinion's staying power, and potential ramifications, than you're comfortable admitting.
A.

Not that that should imperil the Civil Rights Act. If it was found that a ruling relied on shaky reasoning, it would be incumbent on a rational court to review it (including the other legal arguments surrounding it), not just revert it.

Otherwise, it sounds an awful lot to me like you're the one projecting here. You're the one discounting opinions with which you disagree irrespective of case facts or ratio, on this idea Justices overturn laws with which they disagree irrespective of case facts or ratio.
Oh yes, the craaaazy idea that the SCOTUS is not independent of the party-political system.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Left-wing person complains Supreme Court is overturning decades of precedent.
Republican points to the racially discriminating rulings of the past that stood much longer before getting overturned, but which everyone agrees were wrongfully decided.
Users here somehow think that's a bad response.
Except that it's smoke and mirrors, trying to distract us from a hyper-conservative Supreme Court hellbent on taking away all the rights they don't use themselves.
 
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Eacaraxe

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...If it was found that a ruling relied on shaky reasoning, it would be incumbent on a rational court to review it (including the other legal arguments surrounding it), not just revert it.
That is precisely what just happened.

Agree with it or not, Roe was a shit precedent that relied on shaky reasoning -- as I pointed out, Norma McCorvey didn't even have standing, she perjured herself in the first place to claim standing, the case was moot before the petition for cert was even filed, the Court had to manufacture jurisdiction to even hear it, and its ratio was nebulous and uneasily established (something about which even Ruth Bader Ginsburg was vocally critical). It's a miracle Roe stood this long as it was, it was never going to be a permanent disposition for abortion access, and believing otherwise is peak liberal hubris.

Like I said, be careful what you wish for.

Oh yes, the craaaazy idea that the SCOTUS is not independent of the party-political system.
That was never part of my role in the discussion; I'm discussing methodology.