Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

McElroy

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"Everything was normal" does not necessarily include a heartbeat detected at 7 weeks.
At seven weeks the embryo is 10 mm long. And thus "normal" means it was that size and with a heartbeat like a normal embryo at 7 weeks. edit: Also a missing heartbeat would then mean that those two following weeks were the waiting period.

But sure, the woman could be lying. Or maybe the doctor was lying and had misinterpreted the abortion law. There was no medical reason to wait unless someone is taking the piss.
 
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tstorm823

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At seven weeks the embryo is 10 mm long. And thus "normal" means it was that size and with a heartbeat like a normal embryo at 7 weeks.

But sure, the woman could be lying. Or maybe the doctor was lying and had misinterpreted the abortion law. There was no medical reason to wait unless someone is taking the piss.
I'm gonna go another step of speculation here: the 7 week ultrasound probably didn't register a heartbeat. Why would I say that? If you get a 7 week ultrasound, and everything is normal including a registered heartbeat, it's exceptionally weird to schedule a second ultrasound two weeks later. The second ultrasound at 9 weeks was probably performed because there was no heartbeat found at 7 weeks, otherwise her next ultrasound likely wouldn't be until the second trimester.
 
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McElroy

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I'm gonna go another step of speculation here: the 7 week ultrasound probably didn't register a heartbeat. Why would I say that? If you get a 7 week ultrasound, and everything is normal including a registered heartbeat, it's exceptionally weird to schedule a second ultrasound two weeks later. The second ultrasound at 9 weeks was probably performed because there was no heartbeat found at 7 weeks, otherwise her next ultrasound likely wouldn't be until the second trimester.
That would mean the waiting period was gone and done at that time.

All in all, there could be an honest mistake somewhere in there, or misinterpretation, or straight up lies, but if the doc really told her the pregnancy was lost then it was lost.
 
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Silvanus

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I'm gonna go another step of speculation here: the 7 week ultrasound probably didn't register a heartbeat. Why would I say that? If you get a 7 week ultrasound, and everything is normal including a registered heartbeat, it's exceptionally weird to schedule a second ultrasound two weeks later. The second ultrasound at 9 weeks was probably performed because there was no heartbeat found at 7 weeks, otherwise her next ultrasound likely wouldn't be until the second trimester.
How does your proposed explanation (that there might have been a viable pregnancy with an undetected heartbeat) square with the detail that the doctor said there was "no viable pregnancy"?

And how does the speculation (that the second ultrasound was a follow-up after no heartbeat was detected on the first) square with the fact that she wasn't allowed to get the procedure even after the second, and had to wait for a third ultrasound?
 

tstorm823

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How does your proposed explanation (that there might have been a viable pregnancy with an undetected heartbeat) square with the detail that the doctor said there was "no viable pregnancy"?

And how does the speculation (that the second ultrasound was a follow-up after no heartbeat was detected on the first) square with the fact that she wasn't allowed to get the procedure even after the second, and had to wait for a third ultrasound?
I think the most likely explanation is that they detected no heartbeat at 7 weeks, and had her come back two weeks later for a followup. When they still detected no heartbeat, they told her the pregnancy was not viable, recommended the procedure, and tried to schedule it two weeks out just because of schedule availability. The third ultrasound was likely where the law comes in, as with the two week gap, they wanted to do a final ultrasound the same day as the procedure to confirm no heartbeat as a thorough cya. Then the woman found someone to perform the procedure sooner.

The news story likely comes from a simple misunderstanding. The doctor probably suggested they'd need to do an ultrasound the day of the procedure in two weeks because of the law, and she interpreted that as they would need to wait two weeks to do another ultrasound because of the law. I don't think there was any medical or legal reason they couldn't do it that same day, probably just an availability issue.
 

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as a thorough cya.
I mean, before my state's SC put an injunction against our abortion ban law my wife was going to be made to take a pregnancy test every month to continue receiving one of her ongoing meds because it can act as an abortifacient and the doctor wanted to cya.
 

Silvanus

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I think the most likely explanation is that they detected no heartbeat at 7 weeks, and had her come back two weeks later for a followup. When they still detected no heartbeat, they told her the pregnancy was not viable, recommended the procedure, and tried to schedule it two weeks out just because of schedule availability. The third ultrasound was likely where the law comes in, as with the two week gap, they wanted to do a final ultrasound the same day as the procedure to confirm no heartbeat as a thorough cya. Then the woman found someone to perform the procedure sooner.

The news story likely comes from a simple misunderstanding. The doctor probably suggested they'd need to do an ultrasound the day of the procedure in two weeks because of the law, and she interpreted that as they would need to wait two weeks to do another ultrasound because of the law. I don't think there was any medical or legal reason they couldn't do it that same day, probably just an availability issue.
OK, but then you're essentially just purely speculating that the woman in question is wrong, and that what she said happened didn't happen.

Why should I believe your version of events over that of the person who was actually involved?
 
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tstorm823

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OK, but then you're essentially just purely speculating that the woman in question is wrong, and that what she said happened didn't happen.

Why should I believe your version of events over that of the person who was actually involved?
Because the version of events that we've been presented, which to be fair to her isn't even necessarily her version since it's been fed through the media machine, has contradictions. Why did they schedule a followup if everything looked good? Why did the doctor say the law required him to do things it really doesn't?

Like, my version of events requires a minor misunderstanding from a lay person, where the woman's version of events requires a significant error by a medical professional. I obviously have no proof of anything, just educated guesswork, but I'm inclined to believe the version of events where nobody involved did anything seriously wrong, and making up nonexistent waiting periods to treat a miscarriage would probably count as malpractice.
 

Silvanus

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Because the version of events that we've been presented, which to be fair to her isn't even necessarily her version since it's been fed through the media machine, has contradictions. Why did they schedule a followup if everything looked good? Why did the doctor say the law required him to do things it really doesn't?
Those aren't contradictions. Those are just details.

Why did they schedule a follow-up-- who cares? Lots of people do, because they like to be on top of personal/ medical things like this. Maybe she wanted more details? Maybe she was anxious? Who knows or cares, that's irrelevant and normal.

Why did the doctor refuse, when the law (as you understand it) would have allowed him to perform the surgery? Because the procedure is the same as that which is required in an abortion, and performing it would invite suspicion and possibly litigation. There are religious groups which aggressively target and sue clinics they suspect of performing illegal procedures-- and that category now includes abortions. The doctor probably recognises that if he performs the procedure, even if it's in a legal context, he's inviting lengthy and costly legal battles to prove it.
 

tstorm823

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Those aren't contradictions. Those are just details.

Why did they schedule a follow-up-- who cares? Lots of people do, because they like to be on top of personal/ medical things like this. Maybe she wanted more details? Maybe she was anxious? Who knows or cares, that's irrelevant and normal.

Why did the doctor refuse, when the law (as you understand it) would have allowed him to perform the surgery? Because the procedure is the same as that which is required in an abortion, and performing it would invite suspicion and possibly litigation. There are religious groups which aggressively target and sue clinics they suspect of performing illegal procedures-- and that category now includes abortions. The doctor probably recognises that if he performs the procedure, even if it's in a legal context, he's inviting lengthy and costly legal battles to prove it.
I've made my case, you are welcome to believe otherwise. But you are inventing an increasingly convoluted explanation of events that requires layers of ulterior motives from both lawmakers and the doctor.
 

Silvanus

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I've made my case, you are welcome to believe otherwise. But you are inventing an increasingly convoluted explanation of events that requires layers of ulterior motives from both lawmakers and the doctor.
Scarcely. Mine assumes things are happening which... already happen, and which the people actually involved attest. Yours involves complete speculation to make it fit with an existing sympathy.
 

tstorm823

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Scarcely. Mine assumes things are happening which... already happen, and which the people actually involved attest. Yours involves complete speculation to make it fit with an existing sympathy.
Not really. The story as attested is that the doctor told her she could have it done in two weeks, but your explanation for why is that they were refusing to do it to avoid legal battles. The law as written says nothing about a second ultrasound or a two week waiting period, but your explanation dismisses that as just my understanding of it. You are inventing as much alternative information as I am to support the pre-existing conclusion, but one that requires basically everyone but the woman to be terrible manipulative people.

Personally, I think one person misunderstanding legal requirements stated verbally to them at a moment of extreme emotion in their life is a reasonable explanation. Personally, I think the possibility that the doctor made her wait two weeks hoping she'd go somewhere else and they wouldn't have to deal with the possibility of lawsuits is an unreasonable explanation.
 

Silvanus

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Not really. The story as attested is that the doctor told her she could have it done in two weeks, but your explanation for why is that they were refusing to do it to avoid legal battles. The law as written says nothing about a second ultrasound or a two week waiting period, but your explanation dismisses that as just my understanding of it. You are inventing as much alternative information as I am to support the pre-existing conclusion, but one that requires basically everyone but the woman to be terrible manipulative people.

Personally, I think one person misunderstanding legal requirements stated verbally to them at a moment of extreme emotion in their life is a reasonable explanation. Personally, I think the possibility that the doctor made her wait two weeks hoping she'd go somewhere else and they wouldn't have to deal with the possibility of lawsuits is an unreasonable explanation.
Mostly this tells me you underestimate the zeal and litigiousness with which anti-abortion groups approach this in the US, as well as the impact costly litigation can have on a practice.

We already have other known cases where practitioners will shy away from procedures which are legal in some contexts, but which tend to invite litigation from highly motivated opponents. It already happens elsewhere and its hardly a stretch to say its happening again.
 

Terminal Blue

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Anti-intellectualism in America stems directly off of the university education system, but from the time where attending a university largely meant you came from wealth in the first place, and never had to personally suffer as a consequence of your ideas.
Put a pin in this, we'll come back to it.

Who gets the say on manufacturing regulations: someone who has worked in factories for 25 years, or some guy who just happened to go to Harvard?
What are the merits of their respective positions regarding manufacturing regulations, and how can we know those merits?

Communism is purely the invention of bougie, overeducated types, and when the actual working class people try to tell them that communism is stupid, they think that's just what an uneducated anti-intellectual would say.
I mean, I could counter this very easily by pointing out that the history of labor activism has overwhelmingly been driven by working class people. I could point out that the majority of communists I've met are from working class backgrounds, people who are intimately aware of how much it sucks to live in a position of economic exploitation, and who educated themselves (often without the benefit of formal education) as a matter of survival.

But at the end of the day, there's a more urgent and pressing problem here, which is that this view of the working class as uneducated people imbued with a down-to-earth wisdom that you imagine to be superior to critical thought is incredibly patronizing. Working class people make up the majority of society, and they are the most diverse group of people in society both politically and socially. Anything you might imagine that working class people think or believe is wrong, because there is no single spirit that animates the working class.

And then, on the inverse, there's this idea of bourgeois intellectuals as the people without experience. As if we don't live in the same world and learn no lessons or wisdom from our own lives, as if we never suffer or experience poverty or hardship, and this brings us back to the pin we planted earlier.. because I think you have fundamentally misunderstood who has authority within this society. It isn't intellectuals, it's rich people, and those are not the same thing.

And as someone who both likes this sort of thing and is really, really smart, I can tell you from experience, the human intellect is just as capable of rationalizing falsehood as it is deriving truth.
How do you know what truth is?

Thinking through something longer should give you no additional confidence in the truth or value of the concept until it's had opportunity to be tested against reality.
How do you know what is and isn't reality?

Because that is what society is made of.
Are you sure?

Laws are made by human beings for human beings in a society made of human beings.
How do you know?

You are welcome to consider that arbitrary
Doesn't it bother you that it is arbitrary?

You're the one who believes that absolute truth can be derived from reality without the need for mediation. If that were true, nothing should be arbitrary..

I guess that's just between me and the Oxford English Dictionary then.
This is closer to an actual rationalist argument than anything you have attempted to describe as such.

What page in a dictionary contains the direct empirical experience of reality?
 
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tstorm823

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And ever so humble!
Humility is not about rejecting the positive things about yourself. It's about understanding that those positive things don't make you more important than other people. I forget the exact quote or where it came from, but some historical figure described humility as being able to make the greatest most beautiful piece of art and getting no more joy from it than if it had been made by somebody else.
It isn't intellectuals, it's rich people, and those are not the same thing.
Historically, they are the same thing. The usage of "liberal" in "liberal science" or "liberal education" predates the modern usage of the word. The "liberal" in those phrases is intended to mean "befitting a free person", as opposed to unfree people, the slaves or servants or serfs, the people who actually had to work. The liberal sciences were (and are) those skills most important for those meant to rule society, for whom labor and the practical skills needed to perform labor are beneath them. And while things are not quite exactly the same as they were 500 years ago, I think you're capable of seeing the continued parallels in the modern system where cushy careers are often filled by nepotism, but if they aren't filled that way, they are gatekept by participation in a higher education system that often has no relevance to the actual job being performed, with extra deference to the schools most filled with generational wealth.
How do you know what truth is?

How do you know what is and isn't reality?

Are you sure?

How do you know?
It's not as though you have a better answer to existential questions by, you know, just thinking about it. No honest person can answer these question with assurance, but a practical person can not care, and believe in the knowledge that leads to predictable, desirable outcomes outside of themselves.
You're the one who believes that absolute truth can be derived from reality without the need for mediation.
Incorrect. I believe that absolute truth cannot be derived through only the mediation of the human intellect. That is not saying humans can find truth without intellect. It is simply that intellect is insufficient to make any statement with confidence. Any asserted truth which nature outside of the human mind has had no opportunity to contradict should be considered with no more confidence than if you hadn't thought it through at all.
 

Terminal Blue

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The usage of "liberal" in "liberal science" or "liberal education" predates the modern usage of the word. The "liberal" in those phrases is intended to mean "befitting a free person", as opposed to unfree people, the slaves or servants or serfs, the people who actually had to work.
Okay.

So, the usage of "liberal" to which you're referring doesn't just predate the modern era. It's an idea from classical antiquity, originating literally thousands of years ago and primarily within one Greek city-state. It reflected a particular need on the part of that city state, because Athens was a democracy. The emphasis on "liberal education" and rhetorical training in Athens reflected the need for a citizenship capable of handling political responsibility. Women and free foreigners (metics) were also exempt from the need for a liberal education, because they did not have the same civic responsibilities.

Athenean law explicitly reflected the fact that it was often difficult to tell slaves, metics and citizens apart by their apparent wealth or the job they performed. For example it was forbidden to strike a slave in public in case someone mistook a poor citizen for a slave. Being a slave wasn't a matter of simply being poorer than anyone else or doing all the work, it was a matter of rights and civic responsibilities.

Regardless, trying to broaden this into a general statement of pre-modern education or its role is laughable. If anything, for around a milennium and a half, the concept of higher education was synonymous with a religious education and tightly controlled by whatever religious authorities existed. At the same time, it is non-coincidental that in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries many of the wealthiest people in the world were members of religious minorities who were barred from higher education. Business ownership and investment, the actual path to enormous wealth in a capitalist society, does not require a significant education.

I think you're capable of seeing the continued parallels in the modern system where cushy careers are often filled by nepotism, but if they aren't filled that way, they are gatekept by participation in a higher education system that often has no relevance to the actual job being performed, with extra deference to the schools most filled with generational wealth.
How is that relevant to the value of education itself?

Do you think Harvard or Cambridge are actually offering a better standard of education than other institutions, or are they simply selecting candidates who have been more intensively prepared and who attend these institutions primary to develop contacts among the political and financial elite?

How many Fortune 500 companies do you think are run by people with doctorates? How many major shareholders in those companies have devoted a significant proportion of their lives to studying philosophy? Again, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the relationship between intellectualism and power in order to labour this really asinine assumption that anyone with the slightest personal experience of living within the intellectual class (or the political and business elite) could discredit.

It's not as though you have a better answer to existential questions by, you know, just thinking about it.
If the alternative answer is "I know these things for certain based on my personal feelings and individual experiences" then yes. I do have better answers than that.

Incorrect. I believe that absolute truth cannot be derived through only the mediation of the human intellect.
I believe that absolute truth is a useless concept since it describes something entirely outside of any human experience.

You have fundamentally misunderstood what the intellectual labor here is. It is not divining truth by quoting definitions, it is determining what it is possible to know, to what degree of certainty and under what conditions, and from that qualifying the utility of knowledge produced from experience.

Any asserted truth which nature outside of the human mind has had no opportunity to contradict should be considered with no more confidence than if you hadn't thought it through at all.
How do you know that nature exists outside of the human mind?

Like, this is the most basic, fundamental point of empiricism. Empirical experiences are not outside the human mind. Whatever is outside the human mind can only be inferred through our senses (not just the physical organs, but the mind which interprets them) and thus our experience of it is necessarily imperfect. Our position as humans determines our perception of the world.

One very obvious example of this would be believing that human life has intrinsic value because you are a human. That awareness of being a human and thus valuing human life as a principle can only exist within a human mind. It has no basis or bearing on reality and no evidence to suggest that there is any universal truth to the statement that human life is valuable.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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And as someone who both likes this sort of thing and is really, really smart, I can tell you from experience, the human intellect is just as capable of rationalizing falsehood as it is deriving truth.
Usually people who are smart don't need to tell people that they're smart.
 

tstorm823

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Usually people who are smart don't need to tell people that they're smart.
I've been accused of many things here, being stupid is not high on that list. It was a contextually relevant reminder.
Whatever is outside the human mind can only be inferred through our senses.
Now actually believe this sentence and we are getting somewhere.