Quick note, but I don't think Melkor ended up in the Halls of Mandos. He was cast out into the void beyond Arda.Let's saying somehow Melkor gets out of the Halls of Mandos
Quick note, but I don't think Melkor ended up in the Halls of Mandos. He was cast out into the void beyond Arda.Let's saying somehow Melkor gets out of the Halls of Mandos
I'd add that I think Discovery focuses on one character too much. I don't think Star Trek ever was, or ever should be a one person show. It probably is closest to TOS in that respectI'm working my way through TOS right now and while I am enjoying it in a semi-ironic sense, it's really fucking weird. It's very clear that there isn't really a continuity to TOS at all, it's a series of stories built around some very basic core relationships between characters and stuff just works however it needs to work at the time to facilitate the story.
And I think what's really insulting about NuTrek is that it doesn't seem to understand why people like TOS or TNG/DS9/Voyager. It isn't the events or the worldbuilding or the "science", because these things are paper thin. It's the characters. Everything else is just a vehicle for those characters to bounce off. It's a way to put them in situations where their different personalities and beliefs and the ideas they represent can come into play. The characters are always the emotional heart, everything around them is incidental.
But again, I don't think NuTrek understands this. We get straight-faced references to goofy-ass shit like Agent Gary 7 for the sake of having a reference, and characters who are completely rewritten to fit some mangled half-remembrance of who they were.
It makes me look back more fondly on the DS9 episode Trials and Tribble-ations. Because that's a blatant fan-service episode, but it knows what it is and it feels like it was written by some weirdos who genuinely loved TOS and got what was enjoyable about it. They don't retcon the tone, and they don't try and explain anything. In fact, one of the best lines is Worf refusing to explain something that would be entirely reasonable to need an explanation for if this was a serious show. It's just fun, and that's really all Star Trek is.
And don't get me wrong, I think TNG-era Star Trek in particular could be very smart sometimes, but part of that was the ability to take risks in a setting with low continuity. A serious show concerned with maintaining its own lore could not have given us Far Beyond the Stars.
I found that really interesting about Star Trek myself. There was a big debate for a little while about what the first science fiction book was, and a lot of people were against it being Frankenstein because apparently, the definition of science fiction (depending on the source) can include a requirement that the science is semi-realistic and include themes regarding societal impact. Now, I don't personally care about that argument - the race to be the first science fiction writer was won by the Greeks via Icarus, clearly - but it did strike me that if you want to use that robust of a definition of sci-fi, I don't think most of Star Trek actually fits in the genera.I'm working my way through TOS right now and while I am enjoying it in a semi-ironic sense, it's really fucking weird. It's very clear that there isn't really a continuity to TOS at all, it's a series of stories built around some very basic core relationships between characters and stuff just works however it needs to work at the time to facilitate the story.
And I think what's really insulting about NuTrek is that it doesn't seem to understand why people like TOS or TNG/DS9/Voyager. It isn't the events or the worldbuilding or the "science", because these things are paper thin. It's the characters. Everything else is just a vehicle for those characters to bounce off. It's a way to put them in situations where their different personalities and beliefs and the ideas they represent can come into play. The characters are always the emotional heart, everything around them is incidental.
But again, I don't think NuTrek understands this. We get straight-faced references to goofy-ass shit like Agent Gary 7 for the sake of having a reference, and characters who are completely rewritten to fit some mangled half-remembrance of who they were.
It makes me look back more fondly on the DS9 episode Trials and Tribble-ations. Because that's a blatant fan-service episode, but it knows what it is and it feels like it was written by some weirdos who genuinely loved TOS and got what was enjoyable about it. They don't retcon the tone, and they don't try and explain anything. In fact, one of the best lines is Worf refusing to explain something that would be entirely reasonable to need an explanation for if this was a serious show. It's just fun, and that's really all Star Trek is.
And don't get me wrong, I think TNG-era Star Trek in particular could be very smart sometimes, but part of that was the ability to take risks in a setting with low continuity. A serious show concerned with maintaining its own lore could not have given us Far Beyond the Stars.
If the writers don't care enough to keep their story consistent, why should I?I do value sticking to ones own lore quite a lot.
If a franchise does not value lore and instead chases new ideas for stories whenever, i tend to stop caring. Sure sometimes it is too restrictive and a retcon might be worth it. But it should be considered carefully whether it really is worth it.
Some of the writers of Star Trek seem like they may have overheard something about science at a pub one time, but that's as far as their involvement went. Like the episode of Next Generation where they get a virus that makes everyone in the crew de-evolve into animals from deep in their genetic history. Different animals. Including a spider in one case.I found that really interesting about Star Trek myself. There was a big debate for a little while about what the first science fiction book was, and a lot of people were against it being Frankenstein because apparently, the definition of science fiction (depending on the source) can include a requirement that the science is semi-realistic and include themes regarding societal impact. Now, I don't personally care about that argument - the race to be the first science fiction writer was won by the Greeks via Icarus, clearly - but it did strike me that if you want to use that robust of a definition of sci-fi, I don't think most of Star Trek actually fits in the genera.
There are definitely some episodes that have heavy theming regarding society wrestling with technology (Ricardo Montalban's fantastic chest for instance), but a huge amount of the individual stories could have been played out by a group of hippies in a VW driving across America. Voyager would be a bunch of people waking up in Amsterdam and realizing they have to get home to India the hard way because they can't afford plane tickets. DS9 would be an English outpost trying to pull a country away from France. Most of the science is either hand-waved with technobabble or tacitly ignored with the pure intention of giving that time to the characters instead. The Prophets? Either actually magic, or wormhole aliens, don't sweat it, we have a really interesting character study for Sisko but for it to work we need someone to jerk him around on Earth so whatever the Prophets are, they're the kind of thing that can do that.
It sucks that the hardcore insistence that lore and technological realism is making shows like that harder and harder to pull off. New Star Trek is definitely suffering from it, but a lot of other sci-fi shows like The Expanse are often bogged down similarly. It seems like the new push in sci-fi is to be like The Martian, and also try to pull off the same kind of dramatics of GOT, but there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgment that there isn't really time in an hour block to be super technically thorough and self-consistent, and still have time for characters to get mad at each other about banging the wrong person. A lot of time in The Expanse goes to explaining space technology that is fundamentally neat, but not what I'm actually watching the show to see, so its hard not to view it as stealing time from Gunny vs Mars for instance.
Gosh, I missed that one.Some of the writers of Star Trek seem like they may have overheard something about science at a pub one time, but that's as far as their involvement went. Like the episode of Next Generation where they get a virus that makes everyone in the crew de-evolve into animals from deep in their genetic history. Different animals. Including a spider in one case.
Yeah it wasn't great. I still think the Voyager hitting Warp 10 and making both Janeway and Paris turn into monitor lizards and mate is worse, but in the way being executed by blind firing squad is worse than a clean trip to the guillotine.Gosh, I missed that one.
And on reading that, I'm glad I missed it.
There's a problem with all TV series when they run out of ideas. Classic examples are episodes set in the 1920s/1950s (ST had the holodeck, everyone else needs a dream or hallucination), musical numbers, and - specific to SF - time travel and alternative dimensions (except where the show is about those, obviously). Bar the few inevitable exceptions, these are barrel-scrapers. I don't think anyone can possibly say some form of "Time Police" made Star Trek a better place. It particularly infested ST:E as I recall (which is not much).Yeah it wasn't great. I still think the Voyager hitting Warp 10 and making both Janeway and Paris turn into monitor lizards and mate is worse, but in the way being executed by blind firing squad is worse than a clean trip to the guillotine.
You know, there wasn't that much time police stuff in ST:E. But I don't think there is that much Borg stuff in Voyager and find all Borg interactions boring in TNG and was thankful Voyager was willing to do something with them... even if it didn't hit on all cylinders. So take my 'not too much' as you see fitThere's a problem with all TV series when they run out of ideas. Classic examples are episodes set in the 1920s/1950s (ST had the holodeck, everyone else needs a dream or hallucination), musical numbers, and - specific to SF - time travel and alternative dimensions (except where the show is about those, obviously). Bar the few inevitable exceptions, these are barrel-scrapers. I don't think anyone can possibly say some form of "Time Police" made Star Trek a better place. It particularly infested ST:E as I recall (which is not much).
Only time I remember those guys, the Department of Temporal Investigations, showing up was the DS9 comedy episode 'Trials and Tribbl-uations' where their job was to be officious straight men to Sisko's gleeful enjoyment of possibly fucking around with time.There's a problem with all TV series when they run out of ideas. Classic examples are episodes set in the 1920s/1950s (ST had the holodeck, everyone else needs a dream or hallucination), musical numbers, and - specific to SF - time travel and alternative dimensions (except where the show is about those, obviously). Bar the few inevitable exceptions, these are barrel-scrapers. I don't think anyone can possibly say some form of "Time Police" made Star Trek a better place. It particularly infested ST:E as I recall (which is not much).
Well the holodeck, and also random planets that are inexplicably 1920s versions of Earth.There's a problem with all TV series when they run out of ideas. Classic examples are episodes set in the 1920s/1950s (ST had the holodeck, everyone else needs a dream or hallucination)
Yes, those were really really dumb.Some of the writers of Star Trek seem like they may have overheard something about science at a pub one time, but that's as far as their involvement went. Like the episode of Next Generation where they get a virus that makes everyone in the crew de-evolve into animals from deep in their genetic history. Different animals. Including a spider in one case.
Or the episode of Voyager where they go faster than warp 9 and it causes Janeway and Paris to turn into lizards and have babies, and then be easily returned to normal for the next episode. I'm sorry but I don't see there being any return from that change. If I boil an egg, I can't then unboil it and hatch it into a chicken.
Eh, cut 'em some slack.Yes, those were really really dumb.
I mean yes, Star Trek was never particular hard fantasy, but if you manage to destroy suspension of disbelief of elementary school children with your science errors, you have gone too far.
Exactly, just as long as they are making a lot of episodes it doesn't actually matter how good they are, all that counts is that you have something to fill the meaningless span of time before you die.Eh, cut 'em some slack.
With how many stories they churned out for TNG, DS9 and VOY, there are bound to be a some of whacky things in there.
Voyager in particular has an exceedingly high quantity of really bad episodes. For how many start off with one of the crew crashing a shuttlecraft you would think that Janeway would have banned the use of them.Well, i did like TNG a lot and later DS9, was a bit more lukewarm on VOY. But some stories were just really really bad.
Well, what's really amazing is how I think in the first episode or so Janeway makes a comment about having like 40 torpedos and best not waste them. Cue the rest of the show where they use torpedos and lose shuttles with wild abandon.....Voyager in particular has an exceedingly high quantity of really bad episodes. For how many start off with one of the crew crashing a shuttlecraft you would think that Janeway would have banned the use of them.
The writers just really did not grasp the premise of Voyager at all. So much handwaving you'd think it was a parade. Like how they kept somehow running into the same groups of people, like that Romulan woman that teamed up with those red aliens with the dirt encrusted afros, despite Voyager supposedly making a beeline back to the alpha quadrant as fast as they can go.Well, what's really amazing is how I think in the first episode or so Janeway makes a comment about having like 40 torpedos and best not waste them. Cue the rest of the show where they use torpedos and lose shuttles with wild abandon.....
You're thinking of Seska I think, and she was a Cardassian who had been surgically altered and embedded in Chakotay’s cell of the Maquis. And it was the Kazon she ended up throwing in with.The writers just really did not grasp the premise of Voyager at all. So much handwaving you'd think it was a parade. Like how they kept somehow running into the same groups of people, like that Romulan woman that teamed up with those red aliens with the dirt encrusted afros, despite Voyager supposedly making a beeline back to the alpha quadrant as fast as they can go.