Ukraine

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,893
6,235
118
Country
United Kingdom
I wasn't just talking about cultural appropriation. I was talking about how neo-Nazis obfuscate themselves for legitimacy. Cultural appropriation is one tool in their toolkit.

Just like Azov, Sich's "origins" and "connections" are "unclear" because they're (poorly) hidden. It's geopolitical kayfabe, except in this circumstance we're not talking about Vince McMahon wearing a stupid hooded robe, we're talking about genocidal extremists embodying the most despicable and dangerous ideology in human history, who happen to be running around eastern Europe packing serious fucking heat and bull baiting a nuclear war on US/NATO dole.

Are we clear?
So to make the point that Azov obfuscates its connections to the civilian movement of the same name, you... likened it to another group that has no connections to a civilian movement that shares its name?

Clear as mud.

I implied nothing. You read shit into my statement and put words in my mouth because you're buttmad I'm calling Nazis, Nazis -- and called you out for having caped for them for 145 pages of thread, now.
Pathetic slur, to deflect from a mistake you're being too cowardly to own.

I've been calling the Ukrainian Nazis Nazis repeatedly throughout the thread. What I've not been doing is using the existence of Nazis in a country justify imperialist invasion by another power that also utilises thousands and thousands of neo-Nazi paramilitary scumbags.
 
Last edited:

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,893
6,235
118
Country
United Kingdom
To get back to topic: Russia has launched a massive missile attack on Kyiv (as well as Lviv & Dnipro). First time since June that the capital has been targeted. Hitting the centre of the city during morning rush hour, including striking a park and playground.

So back to mass targeting of civilian areas throughout the entirety of the country, then, in retaliation for Kerch Bridge.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,053
3,781
118
Those guys are gonna be really cold this winter. And Hungry. With Rusty Ak's.
If their AKs are still functional, and there are civilians around with food and stuff, that might not be such a problem. Increase the amount of hatred due to warcrimes, though.

EDIT: I mean it'd still be a problem, but they can lessen it by pillaging. If they've no supplies it'd be almost inevitable, whatever the official policy is.
 

Def

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2014
29
2
13
77mSvFzSQqc.jpg

Ukrainians made a postage stamp with the terrorist attack on the Russian bridge. They were too happy yesterday. Today they live without electricity and heating.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: gorfias

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,702
1,287
118
Country
United States
Azov was a neo-Nazi militia for a few months. It has been a national guard regiment for coming up to a decade.

Part of being a national guard regiment is that you can't choose officers on the basis of political loyalty. You can't select recruits on the basis of their political beliefs. You can't recruit people without citizenship (in peacetime at least). Even without the deliberate purging of the membership following incorporation, you would expect to see some degree of depoliticization.

Is that depoliticization complete? The answer is unquestionably no. But claiming that this group has somehow managed to perfectly retain its political identity for years while also being an incorporated national guard regiment and despite deliberate membership purges isn't a whole lot more plausible.
Oh yeah, when a volunteer organization-cum-paramilitary is formally recognized by a government and integrated into its regular fighting forces, they absolutely depoliticize by necessity. Nazis in particular have such a stellar reputation for putting politics on the backburner, because formalization means they serve the state and its people from that point forward.

1665411667841.png

They absolutely have a fantastic track record for forcing out political extremists to moderate themselves, to better integrate into their home country's fighting forces and foster international and inter-branch (or agency) cooperation.

1665411817778.png

So to make the point that Azov obfuscates its connections to the civilian movement of the same name, you... likened it to another group that has no connections to a civilian movement that shares its name?
I made the point that Azov obfuscates its connections to neo-Nazism, by likening it to how another group obfuscates its connections to neo-Nazism. You took it upon yourself to try and derail this into semantics, over facts of which you are damn well aware.

I've been calling the Ukrainian Nazis Nazis repeatedly throughout the thread. What I've not been doing is using the existence of Nazis in a country justify imperialist invasion by another power that also utilises thousands and thousands of neo-Nazi paramilitary scumbags.
No, you've just been rationalizing Nazism and western support for Nazism, in the name of anti-imperialism.

I say let the stupid fuckers have their dumbass Nazi fight over a strip of land with zero economic or strategic value compared to the war's cost, and let the ones left standing rule their precious heap of ashes for the thirty minutes before it's turned into a glowing green parking lot. The US has bigger economic fish to fry than dropping almost a hundred billion and counting, arming Nazis instead of killing them.
 
Last edited:

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,914
1,781
118
Country
United Kingdom
Terrorist attack?
Remember, using a missile from the 60s that was designed to blow up carrier groups with tactical nuclear warheads and which struggles to land within half a kilometer of its intended target against built up urban areas is a surgical strike against military targets with a precision weapon.

Blowing up a bridge with explosives is a terrorist attack.

Obviously, I could go into all the actual bombings and assassinations Russian agents have been responsible for in Europe, but we'd be here all day.
 
Last edited:

Elijin

Elite Muppet
Legacy
Feb 15, 2009
2,086
1,070
118
The Ukrainians planted a bomb in a civilian truck. The driver thought he was delivering fertilizer.

That is a terrorist method.
2 minutes of googling showed that only the Russians (super trustworthy guys) are making that claim
Most other sources either refute it or declare the source as yet to be confirmed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thestor

Def

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2014
29
2
13
Remember, using a missile from the 60s that was designed to blow up carrier groups with tactical nuclear warheads and which struggles to land within half a kilometer of its intended target against built up urban areas is a surgical strike against military targets with a precision weapon.

Blowing up a bridge with explosives is a terrorist attack.

Obviously, I could go into all the actual bombings and assassinations Russian agents have been responsible for in Europe, but we'd be here all day.
In that urban areas laughing Ukrainians lived. No mercy.
 

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,702
1,287
118
Country
United States
The Ukrainians planted a bomb in a civilian truck. The driver thought he was delivering fertilizer.

That is a terrorist method.
Ukrainians were literally so invested and confident in some random, out-of-the-loop, freight driver's ability to deliver a shipment on time, they designed and released stamps to commemorate the event?
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,053
3,781
118
The Ukrainians planted a bomb in a civilian truck. The driver thought he was delivering fertilizer.

That is a terrorist method.
In that case, while it might breach the Geneva Protocols, it's still not terrorism per se, as that was a military operation. A grey zone at least, though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,914
1,781
118
Country
United Kingdom
I mean, your examples are not helping your point.

You may not be aware of this, but Germany during the late 30s and early 40s was a fascist dictatorship under the Nazi party which used the nation's military to pursue its objectives, mostly with the full cooperation and support of military commanders and personnel. However, there was also a significant proportion of the military who lacked political loyalty to the party, and this lead to a great deal of tension and paranoia. Hitler was kind of infamous for accusing various officers of disloyalty over military failures that were largely the result of his own poor strategic planning. At one point, Hitler was nearly assassinated by a group of military officers.

Another obvious example of tension between the party and the military were those lovely gentlemen in the first picture. The SS were paramilitaries. They were not part of the military but rather a separate branch of government with its own command structure. In this regard, they bear far more resemblance to the Russian national guard (Rosgvardia) which is a paramilitary internal security force and separate branch of government answering directly to Vladimir Putin.

If you want to see what happens when paramilitary organizations become militarized, there is actually a very obvious example.

1665413630633.png

The Waffen SS was originally intended to be a fully militarized branch of the SS. An elite and politically motivated force with superior equipment and training to the regular army. Many of the initial personnel who made up the Waffen SS were drawn from other SS divisions who had, among other things, been responsible for the mass murder of Jews and other minorities.

However, a funny thing happened as the war went on. You see, when people are shooting guns and artillery at each other some of them will die, and that means those people have to be replaced, and who was going to replace them? Obviously, you couldn't just keep stripping SS divisions to replace casualties. Who would man the concentration camps and live out Himmler's weird LARP fantasies? The answer, as it turned out, was anyone. Just grab anyone. No pure Aryan ubermensches to fill out the force? Grab some Bosnians and organize them into a division. Sure, slavs may be dity subhumans but they can hold rifles and fight. No more volunteers? Grab some conscripts. Who the fuck cares if they believe in the greater destiny of the German people, they have arms and can hold rifles.

By the end of the war, rather than the dream of an elite force of political loyalists, the Waffen SS was a massive, under-equipped, demoralized mob consisting of conscripts, literal children, non-Germans and whoever else could be somehow persuaded into it. It had questionable military value and was unfit for any use beyond protecting rear areas. Whatever political identity it had ever had was systematically bled out of it by the realities of war.

As Mussolini once put it "fascists are good at dying".
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,893
6,235
118
Country
United Kingdom
I made the point that Azov obfuscates its connections to neo-Nazism, by likening it to how another group obfuscates its connections to neo-Nazism. You took it upon yourself to try and derail this into semantics, over facts of which you are damn well aware.
You didn't do that, though. The only "connection" you highlighted was between Sich Battalion and.... a bunch of completely unrelated socialists who existed before the Nazi party.

How exactly does it highlight the connections they have to Nazism to point to a connection they don't have with some non-Nazis? I'm dying to know the brainworm logic there.

No, you've just been rationalizing Nazism and western support for Nazism, in the name of anti-imperialism.
This is a pathetic slur you've hurled solely because you're too chickenshit to admit you made a mistake calling a bunch of early 1900s socialists Nazis. So instead of admitting error, you've just reached for the most extreme piece-of-shit worthless tactic there is: everyone who disagrees must be a Nazi, Nazi, Nazi.

You're a liar.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thestor

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,053
3,781
118
The Waffen SS was originally intended to be a fully militarized branch of the SS. An elite and politically motivated force with superior equipment and training to the regular army.
At the risk of getting off-topic, while that was the intent, (and the belief in Western nations) I believe they didn't actually get the superior equipment even when things were going well, groups outside the regular military weren't part of the normal procurement process and had to source their equipment from whatever, leading to weird mixes of captured equipment (or new equipment made in captured factories).

Once things fell apart this got worse, though oddly they were still trying to make wonder weapons while they were doing everything on the cheap, leading to some attempts at cheap wonder weapons and weird choices like Volkspistoles as well as just simplifying rifle production.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thestor

Def

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2014
29
2
13
Ukrainians were literally so invested and confident in some random, out-of-the-loop, freight driver's ability to deliver a shipment on time, they designed and released stamps to commemorate the event?
Yes they were. But the image on the stamp is wrong, it shows the original plan. They decided to detonate the bomb not near the arc, but earlier near the train with gasoline.