Hogwarts Legacy - Whimsical Wizardry

Silvanus

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If there's a moral message with the half elves, I'd say it's along the lines of "don't presume you know better for a group than what they themselves tell you." This at least applies to Hermione.

If we're looking at it in the context of book 5, Dumbledore more or less states the theme - "neglect often does more harm than outright malice" (or words to that effect). The half elves are happy to serve wizards, that doesn't mean they should take them for granted, as Sirius did Kreacher.
That message would be fine and well if the books hadn't chosen to focus on a relationship so closely mirroring a real-world analogue. You can't really do that and expect people to completely disregard the parallels.

Since you made a point of comparison to the Death Eaters, the difference is that it's easy to find real-world parallels with the Death Eaters and their ideas of "pure blood," but for the half elves, that comparison doesn't exist beyond folklore. Death Eaters are human, and for all their powers, remain human, with all the foliables that entails. House elves distinctly aren't, and while you can absolutely use a fictional species as a stand-in for humans in the real world, the house elves aren't a case of this.
The group doesn't need to be a stand-in for a real-world group in order for the situation to be an analogy. After all, Slavery has happened (and continues to happen) to people of countless groups.

Look at Mass Effect's Geth. They're not a direct stand-in for any real world group. Yet as soon as they begin to develop self-awareness, their situation immediately becomes a parallel for slavery, and we consider their situation through that lens.

Um, domestication? Yes, I know "slavery" is the word you're going for, but again, house elves aren't human. They don't think like humans, they hold different values. This isn't really a projection, this is outright stated. If your definition of slavery extends to that, then is Harry "enslaving" Hedwig, for instance? Is Hermione "enslaving" Crookshanks? Animal welfare is a valid discussion, but it's very rare that "slavery" is the term used for it.
"Domestication" is the term used for training a non-sapient species to live in a domestic human setting, and to override its natural wild impulses in order to be a more suitable companion for humans. The only contexts I'm aware of it being applied to sapient creatures are either slavery or particularly weird BDSM, both of which are using the term to reduce the target to a non-sapient creature.
 
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For a little while, this discussion has been reminding me of this :


And maybe a Roiland thing is somehow fitting for a Rowling discussion. But that aside, one could go "hey rick and morty is all about edgy social commentary so does this mean that it's okay to torture people because sometimes they like it".

Fantasy creatures are not humans, they are, as I said, "thought experiments". What ifs. They are built around a narrative function and of course, as artificial creations and abstract ideas on legs, they only make sense -and only need to make sense- on a surface level. Any further digging leads to "unfortunate implications" (the clip above makes no sense on a biological evolutionist level and that's not the point). And yes we're back to Tokien's evil orks and "unfortunate implications about free will". Or, again, any fantasy race/species and "unfortunate implications on essenialism and biological determinism". It could be a game in itself to seek the unfortunate implication of all fictions, especially the least realistic ones, even the most deliberately metaphorical and well-meaning ones, because they are never "thought through" enough (just like all metaphors fall apart if you push them too far). Like any oversymplification, allegory, parable or joke idea, they aren't made for that.

So imagine you want to make a cautionary/funny tale about cultural projection and misplaced messianism. Again, examples abound (from clearcut ones like "oh these natives they need to discover clothing, and also to sedentarize, and also to stop endocannibalism, to pray the true god and to embrace efficient productivism" to more complicated ones like "we have to forbid the muslim veil, the excision, the witchcraft trials, etc", there a wide array of legitimate, illegitimate, understandable or patronizing concerns that lead of catastrophies is not nuanced -at the very least- by cultural knowledge). You want the reader to strongly empathize with the concern (cannot be a "let's forbid ramadan to save the poor muslims from hunger during the day") yet not go too far as to making the alien culture too abject (maybe not go the excision route). Willing servants could be a good middle ground. Let's invent (or pick from folklore and adapt) a species that enjoy serving in a way that we wouldn't. It's an okay set up, provided that (as for the rest of the universe) no one goes digging on wait what why how come and also does it mean.

Now of course, you can construct the same device in order to deride the struggles for social rights. Except that the real life political line of defense would be "actually workers are overjoyed to be underpaid, it's part of their ethos" (sometimes semi-perversely true in the complicated world of humanitarian work, and in my own life, but that's another layer). It's not really a viable angle for capitalist rationalization. The closest I can find is "in those countries, they're happy if they get a penny per month instead of nothing, so don't tell me we're exploiting them", but it's not quite claiming they'd be distressed if paid more.

And again, such fantasies (and various implications) are always open to interpretations, and to projections. It's unavoidable in a world where people idolize Gordon Gecko, Tony Montana and the Starship Troopers, while murdering each others over differing interpretations of the Bible. People will see what they want, be it positively or negatively. Let's not exaggerate the accountability of authors when it comes to "unfortunate implications".

And also let's not indulge in The Worst Interpretation Possible. Because that's a sterile approach to everything.

I cannot stress enough that the books go out of their way to say that wizard society is and has been screwed up. The goblins are not happy, the centaurs are not happy, the giants are not happy, the merfolk are not happy, the house elves with bad owners are not happy, the werewolves are not happy, etc, etc, etc. Even a good chunk of the wizards are not happy, for a wide variety of reasons. The status quo of the wizarding world is making nobody happy, but only the bad guys are trying to shake up the status quo (and a lot of the non-wizards, but they don't have enough of a narrative arc to count)
That's interesting. It reminds me of the MCU('s reliably godawful plotlines), where the baddie kind of has a point, and is defeated in the end for the preservation of status quo. Actually it happens an awful lot in action adventures where they try to get us to empathize with the baddies, to give them believable motivations, and end up pointing out real societal issues that the good guys end up ignoring. At least (YES I WILL HARRASS EVERYONE WITH BOB MORANE NOVELS FOREVER) in Bob Morane novels, the big Fu-Manchu-inspired baddie has a very valid ecological point about western industrial civilization consuming the world, and Bob Morane, being the hero (HE IS THE HERO) completely agrees with him. The validity of the baddie's reasons to fight the status quo isn't masked or derided. AND NOW THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT BOB MORANE, DO YOUR HOMEWORKS AND COME BACK AFTER HAVING READ THEM ALL while I'm busy not reading harry potter and discussing it.

But usually, in novels that depict the world as unavoidibly stuck in unfairness, the tragic failing hothead subcharacters that try to change it aren't mocked or morally delegitimized (only burned to death and mourned). It usually denounces the atrocious immutability of society, to which the jaded hero is "wisely" resigned. So indeed, if that Rowling deliberately depicts a world of injustice and unhappiness, it's odd -and dumb- of her to disqualify the very object of one attempt at change. That is, to offer one example of unappropriate social crusade without offering an appropriate counter-example.

So, you mention other characters challenging the status quo. They aren't the focus of the story, Rowling has no interest in them. But how are they described ? Hopeless and ridicule ? Whiny or legitimate ? Are judgements expressed on them, by the narrator of the main characters ?
 

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And maybe a Roiland thing is somehow fitting for a Rowling discussion. But that aside, one could go "hey rick and morty is all about edgy social commentary so does this mean that it's okay to torture people because sometimes they like it".

Fantasy creatures are not humans, they are, as I said, "thought experiments". What ifs. They are built around a narrative function and of course, as artificial creations and abstract ideas on legs, they only make sense -and only need to make sense- on a surface level. Any further digging leads to "unfortunate implications" (the clip above makes no sense on a biological evolutionist level and that's not the point). And yes we're back to Tokien's evil orks and "unfortunate implications about free will". Or, again, any fantasy race/species and "unfortunate implications on essenialism and biological determinism". It could be a game in itself to seek the unfortunate implication of all fictions, especially the least realistic ones, even the most deliberately metaphorical and well-meaning ones, because they are never "thought through" enough (just like all metaphors fall apart if you push them too far). Like any oversymplification, allegory, parable or joke idea, they aren't made for that.
  1. Rick and Morty style of writing and humor can fuck off. This show is part of the problem with alot of adult animated comedies. With only Velma and the 3rd Season & Movie of Drawn Together arguably winning out. Getting large or even bigger egos, can't take criticism, uses nihilism like know-nothing-it-all's, or a pushback for how everything is pointless.
  2. Rick can fuck off even harder. I hate this character, because neither the writers nor Roiland himself can fully commit to developing the character. Every time they do, it's some dumb, "Gotcha! You're an idiot, if you believe character development or continuity matters!" If that's the case writers, then stop fucking around and drawing attention to it! It doesn't make you fucking geniuses! You're just lazy hacks no different from American Dad or the later seasons of Family Guy!
  3. Justin Roiland can get wild stomped in the dick a million times with steel toed boots.
  4. It's doesn't change the fact that later HP books are using allegory from the real world US slave trade, and more or less saying it's pointless to change the system. That the elves are happy in slavery. That creates too many unfortunate implications and validates white nationalists, the KKK, and Neo-Nazis already racists and bias views. It's the same reason I hate Rising Shield Hero for making excuses for slavery, because the main character is "one of the good/nice masters (not really)", and so a girl can be added to his fucking harem. The little girl, not adult woman, literally says "I like/enjoy being a slave to my master, because he's been good to me". Paraphrasing, but you get the idea. Once again, Rowling doesn't support real life slavery, but she has no problems supporting systematic abuse, and taking away the reproductive rights of women, and supports the hurting/killing of anyone that is of the LGBTQ community. So much for being a "true supporter of feminism". If anything, she unconsciously showed partial working of her actual views with that slavery allegory. Gave hints long ago most people didn't pick up on.
  5. Just because they're fantasy races, doesn't make it better or okay! Especially when using real world allegory and spitting in the millions and 100s years of suffering of people being treated as less than human, because the color of their god damn skin! Or because they don't believe the same God! Not to mention the systematic abuse of said people that exist today! Don't ever use the excuse of "it's just a story" for horrible unfortunate implications, or using real life allegories in your fantasy races saying "Slavery is okay, because they want to do it or are happy!" It's same shit that happened in America, and we all know it was bullshit back then, and bullshit now!
I have nothing left to say on this and you can't convince me otherwise. As far as I am concerned, this discussion is over. I am fucking done with this thread. It's good thing WB Discovery lost billions of dollars, even with the success of Hogwarts and TLOUS TV.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Usually, in novels that depict the world as unavoidibly stuck in unfairness, the tragic failing hothead subcharacters that try to change it aren't mocked or morally delegitimized (only burned to death and mourned). It usually denounces the atrocious immutability of society, to which the jaded hero is "wisely" resigned. So indeed, if that Rowling deliberately depicts a world of injustice and unhappiness, it's odd -and dumb- of her to disqualify the very object of one attempt at change. That is, to offer one example of unappropriate social crusade without offering an appropriate counter-example.
Yes, it's very dumb of her. Which is why we're talking about it
So, you mention other characters challenging the status quo. They aren't the focus of the story, Rowling has no interest in them. But how are they described ? Hopeless and ridicule ? Whiny or legitimate ? Are judgements expressed on them, by the narrator of the main characters ?
Unless they're villians, they're described as being at the totally equal victory feast despite nothing actually changing for them. These are not well constructed, logical books with consistent narratives.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Disappointing, but not really surprising

Professional streaming is already rough mentally and watching your fan base tear into each other with plenty of collateral damage is probably intensely distressing. Hopefully she keeps in touch with any newfound streaming friends.

I've honestly never understood permanently quiting vtubing, and it comes up every time somebody graduates. You've already got the rigs and models, the company pays basically nothing extra to keep any software updated, so who cares I you only do, like, one collab stream every 6 months or something? That vestige of idol culture needs to die.
 
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Satinavian

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Rick and Morty style of writing and humor can fuck off. This show is part of the problem with alot of adult animated comedies. With only Velma and the 3rd Season & Movie of Drawn Together arguably winning out. Getting large or even bigger egos, can't take criticism, uses nihilism like know-nothing-it-all's, or a pushback for how everything is pointless.
  1. Rick can fuck off even harder. I hate this character, because neither the writers nor Roiland himself can fully commit to developing the character. Every time they do, it's some dumb, "Gotcha! You're an idiot, if you believe character development or continuity matters!" If that's the case writers, then stop fucking around and drawing attention to it! It doesn't make you fucking geniuses! You're just lazy hacks no different from American Dad or the later seasons of Family Guy!
Agree, even if not the topic.
It's doesn't change the fact that later HP books are using allegory from the real world US slave trade , and more or less saying it's pointless to change the system. That the elves are happy in slavery. That creates too many unfortunate implications and validates white nationalists, the KKK, and Neo-Nazis already racists and bias views. It's the same reason I hate Rising Shield Hero for making excuses for slavery, because the main character is "one of the good/nice masters (not really)", and so a girl can be added to his fucking harem. The little girl, not adult woman, literally says "I like/enjoy being a slave to my master, because he's been good to me".
But i really don't agree with the house elves being an allegory to real world US slave trade. Even human slave trade is a stretch considering that half the plot is about how house elves are not humans and just using human values doesn't work well. But specifically the US one ? Hardly. Many other slavery systems would fit far better, if one really needs to use one of them. I really hate how every time slavery comes up, the talk switches to the US history of it. I assume you are aware that the term slave is derived from Slav for a reason. The US slavery system was relatively abnormal in various ways. The US race baggabe comes from its special history of slavery, but slavery in general has little to to with US specific hangups about race. Now most of the other kinds of slavery are quite bad as well and should not be excused or portrayed as harmless either. But they mostly don't have any connection to white nationalists, KKK or neo-nazis etc.

However i completely agree with your assessment of Shield Hero. That one is incredibly creepy. I mean Stockholm syndrome is a thing that does exist but that is not a healthy relationship. And while Shield Heros beastmen are not humans either, they are far closer than house elves and don't seem to have any different behavior or needs. However, no matter how creapy it is, it doesn't link to white nationalism etc either.

Also not defending Rowlings other views and behavior.
 
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But i really don't agree with the house elves being an allegory to real world US slave trade. Even human slave trade is a stretch considering that half the plot is about how house elves are not humans and just using human values doesn't work well. But specifically the US one
It's still pointed and even discussed in-universe as some of our users have shown. It still counts and is a problem.

Agree, even if not the topic.
Thank you.


However i completely agree with your assessment of Shield Hero. That one is incredibly creepy. And while Shield Heros beastmen are not humans either, they are far closer than house elves and don't seem to have any different behavior or needs. However, no matter how creapy it is, it doesn't link to white nationalism etc either.
I didn't say it did, but white nationalist will see it and take a big run with once they have found out. Be HP or RS. Assuming they did or did not depends, but is not very pretty. Unfortunately, some of them have crept up in the anime community, and something like Shield Hero would validate their prejudice and beliefs. The good news is that the anime community is at least telling them to fuck off and say you are not a part of this community.
 

Silvanus

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Fantasy creatures are not humans, they are, as I said, "thought experiments". What ifs. They are built around a narrative function and of course, as artificial creations and abstract ideas on legs, they only make sense -and only need to make sense- on a surface level.
As I've been saying from the start, though, a fantasy/sci-fi creature or species doesn't need to be an analogue for a real-world group in order for their relationship to be analogous to a real-world situation.

That's precisely the situation with AI in countless science fiction, notably Asimov. The AIs are not analogous to a real world group. But it would be utterly naive to read the breadth of work and believe it draws nothing from the real-world phenomenon of slavery. It evokes and invites these comparisons. It is unavoidable as long as a sapient creature is compelled to serve another for nothing.

No equivalent real world group necessary; the genres of fantasy and science fiction have long since stopped needing to solely use humans in order to tackle social themes.
 

Satinavian

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I didn't say it did, but white nationalist will see it
Are your white nationalists really still trying to justify your historic slavery ?

Ours tend to not bother with that topic at all and do other nasty things instead. That is part of why it is hard to sell slavery as a particularly sensitive topic.
 

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Are your white nationalists really still trying to justify your historic slavery ?
Yes! You cannot be this naive?! The white nationalists in the United States are more than happy to hide, erase history, or make out right lies about the history of slavery, racism, and systematic abuse in the United States. There's a reason so many Southern states, republicans, and ultra alt right conservatives are so gun-ho on misrepresenting and destroying Critical Race Theory.
Ours tend to not bother with that topic at all and do other nasty things instead. That is part of why it is hard to sell slavery as a particularly sensitive topic.
Congratulations, they're still racist shit heads! Even if that's the case, if any of them came over to the US (which I'm sure plenty have), they would be more than happy to oblige the US skinheads and KKK'S lies and half truths.
 
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Buyetyen

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Are your white nationalists really still trying to justify your historic slavery ?
Oh yeah. It can be expressed in small ways like flying the traitor flag from the Civil War to outright saying that black people were better off in servitude. I have personally met white supremacists who openly believe this.
 
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Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Disappointing, but not really surprising

Professional streaming is already rough mentally and watching your fan base tear into each other with plenty of collateral damage is probably intensely distressing. Hopefully she keeps in touch with any newfound streaming friends.

I've honestly never understood permanently quiting vtubing, and it comes up every time somebody graduates. You've already got the rigs and models, the company pays basically nothing extra to keep any software updated, so who cares I you only do, like, one collab stream every 6 months or something? That vestige of idol culture needs to die.

Apparently this was already planned before the HL thing happened. Not saying the harassment was justified, but it's not the reason she's quitting.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Apparently this was already planned before the HL thing happened. Not saying the harassment was justified, but it's not the reason she's quitting.
I'm inherently distrustful of corporate press releases when money's on the line, but considering she was on hiatus for a month before her aborted HL stream on the 7th, that looks extremely plausible
 

Satinavian

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Yes! You cannot be this naive?! The white nationalists in the United States are more than happy to hide, erase history, or make out right lies about the history of slavery, racism, and systematic abuse in the United States. There's a reason so many Southern states, republicans, and ultra all right conservatives are so gun-ho on misrepresenting and destroying Critical Race Theory.
I am vaguely aware that things happen.
But i am honestly not following the US particularly closely (there are many other more interesting countries) and have basically no idea what is meant serious or not, what is mainstream and what is fringe. I mean, you can find weirdos for everything. Also assumed that the Critical Race Theory stuff was more about structural disadvantages today, not about slavery.
Congratulations, they're still racist shit heads! Even if that's the case, if any of them came over to the US (which I'm sure plenty have), they would be more than a happy to oblige the US skinheads and KKK'S lies and half truths.
Probably.
 
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BrawlMan

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Probably.
There is no probably. It was and is the case. Considering that there are ultra conservatives and right nut politicians collaborating with each other in the US and UK, I wouldn't put it past the others either.

am vaguely aware that things happen.
But i am honestly not following the US particularly closely and have basically no idea what is meant serious or not, what is mainstream and what is fringe.
Now you know. I suggest you should not stop there and keep digging. The more ignorant, apathetic, or unaware, the better for those white nationalists. That's exactly what they want. Misinformation, omnition of truths, hiding history, and outright constant lying. Use this as an advantage, because it will be useful for you and those that you care about.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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I'm inherently distrustful of corporate press releases when money's on the line, but considering she was on hiatus for a month before her aborted HL stream on the 7th, that looks extremely plausible
I feel so bad for pikamee, is now being used for ammo for homophobes even though this had nothing to do with the Wizard game.
 
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Buyetyen

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Also assumed that the Critical Race Theory stuff was more about structural disadvantages today, not about slavery.
Slavery was a system with far-reaching consequences and we're still not out of the blast radius. CRT does factor that in. Systemic disadvantages are part of a legacy of that is informed by the Atlantic slave trade among other things.
 
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Satinavian

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Now you know. I suggest you should not stop there and keep digging. The more ignorant, apathetic, or unaware, the better for those white nationalists. That's exactly what they want. Misinformation, omnition of truths, hiding history, and outright constant lying. Use this as an advantage, because it will be useful for you and those that you care about.
I truly disagree. I will keep that in mind, but i won't dig further.

There are dozens upon dozens of countries with racist idiots around the globe. I don't have time nor inclinination to keep tabs on them, not too mention that would be an utterly unpleasant experience. And also of extremely limited use as the only ones i will ever meaningful interact with are the local ones.
 

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There are dozens upon dozens of countries with racist idiots around the globe. I don't have time nor inclinination to keep tabs on them, not too mention that would be an utterly unpleasant experience. And also of extremely limited use as the only ones i will ever meaningful interact with are the local ones.
I didn't say find and look for everything, just keep digging and yourself in the know. You do have time, you just don't want to do it. I don't exactly blame you, but don't use it as an excuse to keep yourself ignorant. The whole "I don't know about this" excuse ain't gonna cut it anymore. You are once again (partially) making excuses thinking you won't change anything. With this knowledge, you can protect others and those you associate with that are victims of systematic abuse. I don't want to hear otherwise, but how "you can't". Not up for debate. Just remember; I gave you a heads up and the info you were ignorant of and completely lacked.

I truly disagree.
I don't give a shit on this part.

I will keep that in mind, but i won't dig further.
Your choice. Don't say I didn't let you know or warn you.
 
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