Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[TheMysteriousGX]

The moral that Mary loves her pet, hence why the lamb stays with her? Not exactly the deepest moral in the world.

Irrelevant: it had a point

Frankenstein is usually considered literary fiction.

Look, we see this happen in the horror movie genre too: some pretentious pricks who normally look down on horror movies finds one they like and all of a sudden it's a Thriller or Elevated Horror or some other hogwash instead of one of those lesser horror movies

No, but that's not the same thing as having a point ipso facto.

For instance, Dale Brown's books, far as I can tell, can usually be boiled down to "US good, China/Russia bad," and while that says a lot about his worldview, I'm not sure what kind of deeper moral that implies (unless you take that as the moral/theme).

That is indeed the theme, yes

I'm not opposed to that view inherently, and certainly a work can be both (e.g. Frankenstein is usually considered literary, but can also be considered genre), but wherever one draws the line, some works have an underlying point/message/theme, some works don't, and not every plot point inside a work of fiction has a deeper reason behind it.

Maybe not consciously, but they certainly do.

 

[Hawki]

Irrelevant: it had a point

A point so basic and banal it's barely worth discussing.

Fine. What's the theme of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?

Look, we see this happen in the horror movie genre too: some pretentious pricks who normally look down on horror movies finds one they like and all of a sudden it's a Thriller or Elevated Horror or some other hogwash instead of one of those lesser horror movies

That's relying on the assumption that all pieces of media are of equal quality.

That is indeed the theme, yes

That's not a theme, that's a motif at best.

If a "theme" is that "good guys are good, bad guys are bad," then literally every piece of media that deals with opposing factions (at least real-world ones) has a theme simply by virtue of their presence.

Maybe not consciously, but they certainly do.

No, they don't. They really, really don't. Take something like a whodunnit - stuff like Midsommer Murders and Death in Paradise are entertaining, but plot points drive the mystery along, there's no deeper theme pertaining to who did what when in regards to the mystery. Sometimes a murder weapon is just a murder weapon.

 

[Absent]

No, they don't. They really, really don't. Take something like a whodunnit - stuff like Midsommer Murders and Death in Paradise are entertaining, but plot points drive the mystery along, there's no deeper theme pertaining to who did what when in regards to the mystery. Sometimes a murder weapon is just a murder weapon.

You cannot have a story without describing a world, and how you think it operates, how you think people are, what you think is normalcy, morality, etc. All fictions are culturally and subculturally situated, reinforcing or subverting the spectator's own worldview. It doesn't have to be conscious or deliberate. It's just an underlying requirement. And when the underlying worldview is mainstream, shared with the public, it makes it less visible, less noticeable (it's untold "common sense", locally) but it's not less present.

 

[Thaluikhain]

No, they don't. They really, really don't. Take something like a whodunnit - stuff like Midsommer Murders and Death in Paradise are entertaining, but plot points drive the mystery along, there's no deeper theme pertaining to who did what when in regards to the mystery. Sometimes a murder weapon is just a murder weapon.

The authors are not consciously working on a deeper theme, no. But it's still shaped by the writer's worldview. That there are female and or POC police officers arresting white men would have been viewed rather different a couple of hundred year ago, because it's a theme that would have ruffled feathers.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

A point so basic and banal it's barely worth discussing.

Fine. What's the theme of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?

Love between a mother and child

British Library

www.bl.uk

That's relying on the assumption that all pieces of media are of equal quality.

A horror movie doesn't stop being a horror movie just because you like it more

That's not a theme, that's a motif at best.

You can't have a motif without a theme

If a "theme" is that "good guys are good, bad guys are bad," then literally every piece of media that deals with opposing factions (at least real-world ones) has a theme simply by virtue of their presence.

Gee, you don't see the politics inherent in "USA good, China and Russia bad".

No, they don't. They really, really don't. Take something like a whodunnit - stuff like Midsommer Murders and Death in Paradise are entertaining, but plot points drive the mystery along, there's no deeper theme pertaining to who did what when in regards to the mystery. Sometimes a murder weapon is just a murder weapon.

They sound shitty then. Columbo was chock full of themes, mostly "rich assholes aren't half as clever as they think they are". Oh course, Columbia is also a dirty cop, willing to bend and break the rules as necessary to catch the bad guy, and the narratives present this as okay because the rest of the police force is incompetent and/or complicit, the audience knows the bad guys are guilty, they're rich to fuck 'em, and Columbo is a funny, affable guy, which is it's own set of themes

 

[Hawki]

You cannot have a story without describing a world, and how you think it operates, how you think people are, what you think is normalcy, morality, etc. All fictions are culturally and subculturally situated, reinforcing or subverting the spectator's own worldview. It doesn't have to be conscious or deliberate. It's just an underlying requirement. And when the underlying worldview is mainstream, shared with the public, it makes it less visible, less noticeable (it's untold "common sense", locally) but it's not less present.

All of what you've said relates to worldbuilding more than theme.

You're not even wrong, but it's a different topic.

The authors are not consciously working on a deeper theme, no. But it's still shaped by the writer's worldview. That there are female and or POC police officers arresting white men would have been viewed rather different a couple of hundred year ago, because it's a theme that would have ruffled feathers.

People being arrested isn't a theme. It can be related to one, but it's not by definition. The example you've given is more related to plot or worldbuilding.

Love between a mother and child

British Library

www.bl.uk

That's a motif, not a theme.

A horror movie doesn't stop being a horror movie just because you like it more

It's not a question of what I like or don't like, it's a question of critical consensus.

You can't have a motif without a theme

Um, no, motifs and themes are different things, albeit related.

Motif is more along the lines of a recurring trope, theme is more along the lines of a conveyed, usually core idea in a work.

Gee, you don't see the politics inherent in "USA good, China and Russia bad".

You understand the difference between politics and theme, right?

What you've said above is more related to worldbuilding. Something as simple as "X good, Y bad" isn't a theme, it's barely even a motif (it would certainly be a trope though).

 

[Silvanus]

You're talking at cross-purposes here - representation isn't "the point" of the work, you can have representation of something without a point behind it. In that same chapter, I represented the effects of high gs (acceleration in space, gravity builds up and does a number on your body), there wasn't some deeper point behind that. Something like The Expanse (which gave me the inspiration for writing that scene) focuses a lot on real-world mechanics for space travel and represents it quite well, but is there some larger point behind that? No, not really. Not unless one argues that the hard sci-fi is the point, which it kinda is, but there isn't really a deeper theme behind that in of itself.

?? All of those things have points behind them. The Expense includes these details to provide context, depth and flavour. Details of space travel mechanics help to make it immersive and 'grounded' (for want of a better term) in a universe we can recognise rules for.

These are all points. You seem to be drawing a line between moral/sociopolitical themes on the one hand and pure entertainment (and all the stylistic choices that go along with that) on the other. But that's a bit arbitrary; almost any work will feature elements of both. Coming at it from the other direction: even something like Nineteen Eighty-Four, clearly written primarily as a speculative sociopolitical critique, has elements that were included to make it suspenseful and engrossing.

 

[Silvanus]

Um, no, motifs and themes are different things, albeit related.

Motif is more along the lines of a recurring trope, theme is more along the lines of a conveyed, usually core idea in a work.

Uhrm, no, stop. If a trope was repeated within the same work to the point of being a motif, it itself would become a theme.

You understand the difference between politics and theme, right?

What you've said above is more related to worldbuilding. Something as simple as "X good, Y bad" isn't a theme, it's barely even a motif (it would certainly be a trope though).

I'm sorry, but this shows you really don't know what those terms mean.

 

[Hawki]

These are all points. You seem to be drawing a line between moral/sociopolitical themes on the one hand and pure entertainment (and all the stylistic choices that go along with that) on the other.

That's usually how analysis works. I'm not even sure how you could analyse how entertaining something is, since how entertained someone is by a work is inherently subjective.

But that's a bit arbitrary; almost any work will feature elements of both. Coming at it from the other direction: even something like Nineteen Eighty-Four, clearly written primarily as a speculative sociopolitical critique, has elements that were included to make it suspenseful and engrossing.

Yes, works will include both elements, that's not really relevant (again, the literary/genre divide). If I was called upon to describe the themes/ideas/points of 1984 for instance, it's generally academic as to how those ideas are written (as in writing style).

I'm sorry, but this shows you really don't know what those terms mean.

Theme: The core, overall meaning(s) of a story

Motif: A recurring idea throughout a work that can reinforce the theme, though can exist in isolation (e.g. recurring symbology wouldn't reinforce a theme, but it could be a motif)

Trope: While this is sometimes used synonymously with motif, I use it more in the context of recurring plot points/ideas (i.e. a trope doesn't necessarily have an idea behind it - see TV Tropes for instance)

Back to the analogy, there's no inherent meaning behind "US good, Russia/China bad" to use the original example. I can't even really call it a motif because it's barely even an idea. It's certainly a trope however, as it's a setup that's repeated ad nauseum, and doesn't even have to be those specific countries (protagonist(s) vs. antagonist(s) is a trope even 3 year olds understand)

 

[Ag3ma]

The moral that Mary loves her pet, hence why the lamb stays with her? Not exactly the deepest moral in the world.

I think if you took a step back from a debate mindset, you'd stop to realise just how ill-considered that criticism is.

In a wider extension, the moral lesson is that if you treat other beings with kindness and affection, they will be inclined to give you kindness and affection in return. You can cynically sneer at it, but you can hardly deny it is a fundamental moral message that thousands of cultures across millennia have expressed in the aim of bettering society. After that, it's designed for children, so it's hardly going to have the complexity of a philosophical treatise, is it?

 

[Silvanus]

That's usually how analysis works. I'm not even sure how you could analyse how entertaining something is, since how entertained someone is by a work is inherently subjective.

....Right, but these are just truisms. What does this have to do with the fact that both of them can have themes?

Yes, works will include both elements, that's not really relevant (again, the literary/genre divide). If I was called upon to describe the themes/ideas/points of 1984 for instance, it's generally academic as to how those ideas are written (as in writing style).

It's relevant specifically because you seem to be imagining that if stories are written for entertainment, then they don't have 'themes' as you understand them, which you associate with morals/sociopolitics.

Theme: The core, overall meaning(s) of a story

No. A work can have multiple themes which include ones that are tangential. It could have dozens, with some of lesser importance.

Motif: A recurring idea throughout a work that can reinforce the theme, though can exist in isolation (e.g. recurring symbology wouldn't reinforce a theme, but it could be a motif)

Recurring symbology could absolutely reinforce a theme. An example would be the wasps/wasp infestation in The Shining. Reinforces the themes of mental degeneration, frustration, and hidden/harmful layers beneath the surface.

Trope: While this is sometimes used synonymously with motif, I use it more in the context of recurring plot points/ideas (i.e. a trope doesn't necessarily have an idea behind it - see TV Tropes for instance)

This description is almost meaningless, and very off-base. A trope does not even have to recur within a work, and TVTropes is absolutely chock full of tropes that have "ideas" behind them.

In fact, it would be damn hard to find a trope that didn't have an idea behind it. It would be completely empty, unintentional on the writer's part, and contextless.

Back to the analogy, there's no inherent meaning behind "US good, Russia/China bad" to use the original example. I can't even really call it a motif because it's barely even an idea. It's certainly a trope however, as it's a setup that's repeated ad nauseum, and doesn't even have to be those specific countries (protagonist(s) vs. antagonist(s) is a trope even 3 year olds understand)

!?! What on earth do you think meaning even is? "US good, Russia/China bad" would itself be meaning. Even "US good" would be meaning. Hell, even just "US" has meaning. Even just "good" has meaning.

 

[Hawki]

I think if you took a step back from a debate mindset, you'd stop to realise just how ill-considered that criticism is.

In a wider extension, the moral lesson is that if you treat other beings with kindness and affection, they will be inclined to give you kindness and affection in return. You can cynically sneer at it, but you can hardly deny it is a fundamental moral message that thousands of cultures across millennia have expressed in the aim of bettering society. After that, it's designed for children, so it's hardly going to have the complexity of a philosophical treatise, is it?

I'm not criticizing the song, and that's a good moral, but are we really calling it a "theme?" Because if we are, then practically every story, heck, every children's ditty has a theme to it, provided it has anything to say about morality, however basic.

It's relevant specifically because you seem to be imagining that if stories are written for entertainment, then they don't have 'themes' as you understand them, which you associate with morals/sociopolitics.

Well to be clear, I think for a story to have a theme, it needs to have some level of sophistication to it. And if a story is written primarily for entertainment, that doesn't preclude it from having themes - genre fiction can have themes, certainly.

But on the other hand, I don't see how writing style is relevant to themes. There's any number of themes you can convey through any number of writing styles, but those are separate topics. The writing style of a poem is different to that of a novel for instance, but that's academic in regards to their themes.

No. A work can have multiple themes which include ones that are tangential. It could have dozens, with some of lesser importance.

Hence why I said "meaning(s)." Yes, of course a work can have a number of themes, though usually some are more prevalant than others.

Recurring symbology could absolutely reinforce a theme.

Yes, it can (looking back, I should have phrased it better - recurring symbology can reinforce a theme, it doesn't do so inherently. The Triforce in LoZ is a recurring symbol for instance, there's no deeper meaning behind it.)

This description is almost meaningless, and very off-base. A trope does not even have to recur within a work, and TVTropes is absolutely chock full of tropes that have "ideas" behind them.

In fact, it would be damn hard to find a trope that didn't have an idea behind it. It would be completely empty, unintentional on the writer's part, and contextless.

Um, what?

Okay, off the top of my head, "doomed by canon," where a character's death is guaranteed because canon decrees that they perish at/by a particular point in time. There's no deeper idea behind this, the trope refers to the constraints of plot/canon.

!?! What on earth do you think meaning even is? "US good, Russia/China bad" would itself be meaning. Even "US good" would be meaning. Hell, even just "US" has meaning. Even just "good" has meaning.

"Meaning," in this case, referring to something along the lines of a "deeper message" or "core idea" or, for lack of a better word, "theme."

If all it takes for a work to have something along these lines is for different factions to be opposed, then every work of fiction with opposing groups or even individuals has a theme to it.

 

[Absent]

All of what you've said relates to worldbuilding more than theme. You're not even wrong, but it's a different topic.

No. It's relevant to norms and values. Explicit or implicit. And thus, to morals.

 

[Baffle]

Fine. What's the theme of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?

Having just read the full lyrics, I'd say it's probably hope, or something like even small things matter.

 

[Silvanus]

Well to be clear, I think for a story to have a theme, it needs to have some level of sophistication to it.

OK. Well that's just factually wrong.

But on the other hand, I don't see how writing style is relevant to themes. There's any number of themes you can convey through any number of writing styles, but those are separate topics. The writing style of a poem is different to that of a novel for instance, but that's academic in regards to their themes.

It's not relevant to whether or not they have one. But that's precisely my point. You were the one who seemed to be implying that simple or non-moral stories don't have 'themes'

Hence why I said "meaning(s)." Yes, of course a work can have a number of themes, though usually some are more prevalant than others.

Ok-- so we're clear, it doesn't have to be "core" or "central".

Yes, it can (looking back, I should have phrased it better - recurring symbology can reinforce a theme, it doesn't do so inherently. The Triforce in LoZ is a recurring symbol for instance, there's no deeper meaning behind it.)

The Triforce literally does reinforce the theme of the tetrad of Power, Wisdom, Courage in LoZ. Its actually one of the clearest and most widely known examples of symbology used to reinforce a theme.

Um, what?

Okay, off the top of my head, "doomed by canon," where a character's death is guaranteed because canon decrees that they perish at/by a particular point in time. There's no deeper idea behind this, the trope refers to the constraints of plot/canon.

Why add "deeper" there?

The guy's death served a narrative purpose. That's an idea.

"Meaning," in this case, referring to something along the lines of a "deeper message" or "core idea" or, for lack of a better word, "theme."

If all it takes for a work to have something along these lines is for different factions to be opposed, then every work of fiction with opposing groups or even individuals has a theme to it.

Yes, every such work would indeed have a theme of conflict.

You seem to have this bizarre idea that to be a "theme", a concept must be elevated, mega important, deep. That's just not the case, and I'm not terribly sure why you'd think it would be.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I'm not criticizing the song, and that's a good moral, but are we really calling it a "theme?" Because if we are, then practically every story, heck, every children's ditty has a theme to it, provided it has anything to say about morality, however basic.

Correct

It's not a question of what I like or don't like, it's a question of critical consensus.

A bunch of people liking a horror movie doesn't make it not a horror movie. That's a stupid way of classification, like: "Hey John, a bunch of people liked your horror movie so we need to call it something other than a horror movie", "Sorry Daniel, your thriller sucked so it's just a horror movie"

 

[Hawki]

No. It's relevant to norms and values. Explicit or implicit. And thus, to morals.

Okay, sure.

What are the "values" of how the Epstein drive works in The Expanse?

What are the "morals" of Roshar's geography in Stormlight?

OK. Well that's just factually wrong.

Fine, okay, if we go by the absolute literal definition of theme, then yes, there's no relationship between theme and level of sophistication.

You realize, of course, that by the letter of the definition, then practically every single story ever created has a theme to it then?

It's not relevant to whether or not they have one. But that's precisely my point. You were the one who seemed to be implying that simple or non-moral stories don't have 'themes'

Simple stories can have themes, yes.

The Triforce literally does reinforce the theme of the tetrad of Power, Wisdom, Courage in LoZ. Its actually one of the clearest and most widely known examples of symbology used to reinforce a theme.

The symbol came before the symbology, and not every LoZ game has referenced the tetrad.

The Triforce started out as McGuffins - it was a recurring icon in the series long before meaning was attached to it.

Why add "deeper" there?

The guy's death served a narrative purpose. That's an idea.

Character deaths in fiction are "ideas."

...sure, whatever. If you see this as a theme, then there's no point debating it.

Yes, every such work would indeed have a theme of conflict.

It's good to know that something like Modern Warfare 3 has a "theme" simply by virtue of it depicting conflict between countries. 0_0

You seem to have this bizarre idea that to be a "theme", a concept must be elevated, mega important, deep. That's just not the case, and I'm not terribly sure why you'd think it would be.

"If everything is X, then nothing is X."

Or to be more succinct, if a theme isn't developed, then what's the point? There's a reason why in all levels of education that certain texts are assigned and not others. If I'm doing a course on war literature for instance, chances are I'm going to come across something like Dulce et Decorum est, and not Call of Duty.

Plus, even on the personal level, it would also mean that I could create an absolute piece of crap and say it has a "theme" by virtue of it having a conflict between two parties. People would rightfully laugh, and they'd still be right to laugh even if I pulled a "technically" by the literal definition of a theme.

A bunch of people liking a horror movie doesn't make it not a horror movie. That's a stupid way of classification, like: "Hey John, a bunch of people liked your horror movie so we need to call it something other than a horror movie", "Sorry Daniel, your thriller sucked so it's just a horror movie"

A movie doesn't stop being a type of movie based on how it's appreciated. Genre isn't related to quality. But what horror films may or may not be considered literary is something I'd generally rely on critical consensus to ascertain.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

A movie doesn't stop being a type of movie based on how it's appreciated. Genre isn't related to quality. But what horror films may or may not be considered literary is something I'd generally rely on critical consensus to ascertain.

My dude, you're literally saying that whether or not something is literary or genre fiction is based on popularity. This is literally trying to create new genres for things like Nope purely based on them being too good for being one of those dirty horror movies. Sci-Fi has this problem too, where they stop being genre fiction just as soon as pretentious nerds with patches on their elbows like it too much.

Hell, Shakespeare is 40 dick jokes wrapped in a cross-dressing trench coat, but it's old and popular so it must be way too important to be lowly genre fiction.

 

[Hawki]

My dude, you're literally saying that whether or not something is literary or genre fiction is based on popularity.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. Whether a work is considered genre or literary has nothing to do with popularity.

This is literally trying to create new genres for things like Nope purely based on them being too good for being one of those dirty horror movies. Sci-Fi has this problem too, where they stop being genre fiction just as soon as pretentious nerds with patches on their elbows like it too much.

Who's trying to create a new genre for Nope? And assuming that's a reference to Star Trek, when has that ever been considered high-brow?

Hell, Shakespeare is 40 dick jokes wrapped in a cross-dressing trench coat, but it's old and popular so it must be way too important to be lowly genre fiction.

Rightly or wrongly, Shakespeare is considered literary. You want to disagree, I'm really not the person to talk to.

 

[davidmc1158]

I would like to ask you a question concerning terminology. Are you, perchance, using the term "theme" interchangeably with "thesis"?

Because, if that's the case, then I can agree with the idea that a piece of fiction can be created without am over-arching or in-depth thesis that is explored by the work/author and is, instead, just a bit of fun to enjoy.

I ask because, by itself, "theme" refers to any idea that is being used/discussed at any particular moment. Perhaps I'm wandering out in left-field on this, but as an outsider seeing this discussion, this was the thought that came to my decrepit little mind.