No, I mean theme. I don't think "thesis" can even be applied to a work of fiction. At most, you could say that a work of fiction has a core message behind it, a statement if you will, but "thesis" isn't the term I'd use.
Funny Events of the "Woke" world
- Thread starter CriticalGaming
- Start date
OK, fair enough. I would disagree that fiction can't have a thesis since so much of science fiction particularly examines specific concepts like racism, attempting to define what is intelligence, and other core issues central to the work, but that is a minor quibble for another day.
Be well and feel free to ignore the weirdo wandering back into the weeds.
Literary exists in approximately two means. In the broadest sense, pretty much any text is literary. However, in the sense meant here, it refers to a certain amount of high artistic value - things like philosophical depth, quality of characteristation and sometimes plot, and/or sophistication in language use. Works can of course be both genre and literary, but the issue with genre literature as a whole is that is it often not relying on high artistic value to sell copies.
Theme generally means an overarching, unifying idea or meaning behind the work. One can argue this is often more complex than just a moral or a message (which hardly requires a whole novel) however it must also relate to the length of the work. I cannot see any good reason to argue that Mary Had A Little Lamb and Twinkle Twinkle Little Star lack a theme.
Yes, absolutely they do.
Not quite; even in the very first Zelda game, the triforce was distinguished into three separate sections, one conveying Wisdom (held by Zelda), one conveying Power (held by Ganon), and one conveying Courage (held by Link).
From the very outset, the entire reason the triforce is designed as three threes is that it represents three distinct characteristics, corresponding to the three main characters.
That is theme.
I didn't say it was a theme. I said it was an idea.
You keep trying to attach lots of additional baggage to these terms-- 'idea', 'theme', 'meaning'. But they're extremely basic building blocks.
It does indeed.
Themes and motifs are basic building blocks. Whether they are well developed or not is another question. In all levels of education, they will focus on texts that convey themes effectively, to teach you comprehensive skills and understanding.
Your argument here is a little like saying, "Oh, well if everything has words in it, then nothing does!"
Nope. It's about how well you use 'em. School is going to focus on texts that use the words effectively. But that doesn't mean "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" isn't composed of words.
You've mistaken levels of sophistication with the use of basic elements.
They might laugh because it's likely to sound a bit pretentious to talk about stuff like 'Mechagodzilla' in literary terms.
In the same way it would sound pretty funny if you said that the Hungry Caterpillar "utilises a repeated sentence structure to reinforce its central concept". That sounds pretentious. But you'd be a fool to conclude that therefore the Hungry Caterpillar doesn't have sentence structure, or a concept. It's only laughable because I'd sound like a knob if I spoke like that.
Clancy's view of "apolitical" is to make all the good US politicians like Republicans and all the bad guys like Democrats, but not explicitly state their political party.Oh fuck, no!
Exactly why I never touched a single one of his books. Way too much fuel for the conspiracy ultra alt-right fools.
My enduring memory of Tom Clancy is seeing my brother had read "The Bear and The Dragon", asking him who won, and him giving me the answer "America". That's so Tom Clancy.
Absent
And twice is the only way to live.
- Jan 25, 2023
- 1,594
- 1,557
- 118
- Country
- Switzerland
- Gender
- The boring one
As a sub nut, I loved his Red October when I read it as a teen. I've tried re-reading it recently and woah. WOAH.
Who else but Clancy? (sing song voice)
The only Tom Clancy branding I ever enjoyed, were some games and movies, and that's about it. The brand has been poured out so much, that not even Ubisoft knows what to do with it. Most of those gamers have never read Tom Clancy novel; I hope most of them continue not to do so.As a sub nut, I loved his Red October when I read it as a teen. I've tried re-reading it recently and woah. WOAH.
But what about Clear and Present Danger, wherein Jack Ryan single-handedly fixes Iran-Contra while on a "save the good guys!" mission ripped straight from the pages of Rambo 2? My favorite part was when John Clark was all like, "you, Domingo Chavez, who embodies the American Dream as a poor second-generation Hispanic immigrant who found theAs a sub nut, I loved his Red October when I read it as a teen. I've tried re-reading it recently and woah. WOAH.
My "oh, fuck this shit" moment with Clancy came with Patriot Games; i.e. the one where the IRA teamed up with "not the Black Panthers" to kidnap "not Princess Diana".
Bear and the Dragon is where I jumped off the Clancy Train.
I was a fan of his up until that point and the climax of that book just broke credibility for me and I never bothered reading any more of his books after that.
And yes, I realize how dumb that sounds that it took that long to break Credibility.
Last edited:
It's arguably a waste of time to respond, but okay:
And even then, back to the original point of iconography representing theme. Even sticking with LoZ, take the Light Force. It looks the same as the Triforce, but it isn't, and there's no real deeper theme to it in Minish Cap. As iconography, it's recognizable, but that's it - iconography.
Entertaining the idea that you're correct, that everything has a theme, then maybe you can draw parallels, but even if this is true, words are more foundational than themes.
I'd argue that the most basic element of a story is plot, because without plot, you don't have a story by definition. Theme, by contrast, to use a metaphor I've often used, is the frosting on the cake - great to have, but not required, and not foundational. I might have a great theme, but if I don't have solid plot/characters/storytelling, it'll ring hollow, except in exceptional circumstances (e.g. 2001: A Space Odyssey has weak characters sans Hal, but strong theme).
First, the Triforce of Courage didn't come into being until the second game. But more importantly, everything you've said, while true, tells us more about characters than themes. Otherwise, I could write a story where Bob seeks the Rectangle of Courage, while Bill receives the Pentagon of Love, while Sarah seeks out the Hexagon of Honesty, and claim that this represents a theme. If I play my cards right, it might tell the reader something about the characters (certainly Digimon pulled it off), but as a "theme?" Not really.
And even then, back to the original point of iconography representing theme. Even sticking with LoZ, take the Light Force. It looks the same as the Triforce, but it isn't, and there's no real deeper theme to it in Minish Cap. As iconography, it's recognizable, but that's it - iconography.
Difference is that words are even more basic/more foundational. It's literally impossible to write a story without words unless you're writing in binary or something (let's avoid the semantics, please?) Difference is that theme is a more abstract concept.
Entertaining the idea that you're correct, that everything has a theme, then maybe you can draw parallels, but even if this is true, words are more foundational than themes.
Per above, I disagree that theme is a basic element.
I'd argue that the most basic element of a story is plot, because without plot, you don't have a story by definition. Theme, by contrast, to use a metaphor I've often used, is the frosting on the cake - great to have, but not required, and not foundational. I might have a great theme, but if I don't have solid plot/characters/storytelling, it'll ring hollow, except in exceptional circumstances (e.g. 2001: A Space Odyssey has weak characters sans Hal, but strong theme).
Absent
And twice is the only way to live.
- Jan 25, 2023
- 1,594
- 1,557
- 118
- Country
- Switzerland
- Gender
- The boring one
Red October is the only one I read (I was more into Ludlum and Cussler). I didn't play the games because the attached name already irritated me. But the movies are interesting (besides the fact that Red October is, with Das Boot, one of the two best sub movies ever) : apparently Harrison Ford and Tom Clancy hated each other's guts, and Ford imposed changes to the scripts to make them less jingoistic. Makes them more watchable than Clancy is readable. The frightening thing is how many US presidents named him as their favorite writer. Sends a shiver down the spine.
It's a good thing I care more about Harrison Ford than Clancy. Ford had a big point back then, and it still applies now. Most adaptions on the movie side go out of their way, to make the stories less jingoistic. There's a great reason for that, and today shows exactly why. It's the exact reason why I enjoy those more than the actual books.
Well, when you spend your entire career constantly sucking America's dick and acting like as if there's little to no flaws with the country, you're going to get a few bitches-in-boxstands that enjoy said dick sucking. Fuck'em. Glad they're not in the office anymore.
Last edited:
Generally, when any politician says what their favourite films / music / books / etc. are, that's actually what their PR team told them was best for them to say was their favourite. If you're lucky, they'll even have seen / listened to / read it.
"Bob went to the shop and bought some eggs. Then he went home and fell asleep."
Glib, but that's technically a plot, and one bereft of theme. Or to be less glib, I could tell a story as a sequence of events, but if there's no real deeper theme or idea, then does it have a theme?
Except that courage, wisdom and power are directly related to the characters that hold them. If in your story, those characters embodied the characteristics of courage, love and honesty, recurring over many installments, then those characteristics would be thematic.
Theme is an extremely basic component of storytelling-- That's exactly my point.
Yes, but all you've really offered to back that up is pointing to very basic stories and expressing incredulity. There's no fundamental argument there-- you've not really elaborated what you believe they're fundamentally lacking that translates to theme. The only difference is sophistication or the level of detail, which is arbitrary.
This is the equivalent of writing a story in binary and then arguing that words aren't necessary, which you told me not to do.
See what I mean-- it's technically possible, in a meaningless way that doesn't apply to almost any real-world stories.