Modern Slavery

hanselthecaretaker

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bluegate

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Only 50 million people? So we're not counting lower class wage slaves in western countries? ( Only read the title )
 
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Gordon_4

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Only 50 million people? So we're not counting lower class wage slaves in western countries? ( Only read the title )
It doesn't seem to be including that; the two main groups that it mentions are forced labour at 27.6 million, and forced marriage at 22 million. For what is worth, the definition the report seems to be using is thus: Walk Free describes modern slavery as covering "a set of specific legal concepts including forced labor, debt bondage, forced marriage, slavery and slavery-like practices, and human trafficking."
 
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Eacaraxe

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Only 50 million people? So we're not counting lower class wage slaves in western countries? ( Only read the title )
Lol, of course not. Neoslavery is something only done in "not western liberal democracies". Just never mind convict labor, the many venues for de facto indentured servitude, and contemporary debt bondage.
 

Silvanus

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Lol, of course not. Neoslavery is something only done in "not western liberal democracies". Just never mind convict labor, the many venues for de facto indentured servitude, and contemporary debt bondage.
The report explicitly includes convict labour.

Situations wherein someone has little choice but to work for shitty wages is nigh impossible to include in a report on slavery, not least because its not actually the same thing.
 
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gorfias

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Lol, of course not. Neoslavery is something only done in "not western liberal democracies". Just never mind convict labor, the many venues for de facto indentured servitude, and contemporary debt bondage.
In the US, the contemporary debt bondage could be subject to debate. Most debt is dis-chargeable through bankruptcy, but plenty is not. But, for instance, student debt is not dis-chargeable, nor are child support payments. Debt accrued through one's own transgressions (you get sued for libel and lose, you cannot discharge the court fine) is not. Rev up a charge card knowing you can never meet the financial obligations created in using the card? Not dischargeable.

Even if you accepted the non-dischargeable debt though your own volition, is it still not a form of neo-slavery? How many in Libya's modern day slave market faced starvation and submitted themselves for sale as a better alternative to that fate?
 

Ag3ma

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In the US, the contemporary debt bondage could be subject to debate. Most debt is dis-chargeable through bankruptcy, but plenty is not. But, for instance, student debt is not dis-chargeable, nor are child support payments. Debt accrued through one's own transgressions (you get sued for libel and lose, you cannot discharge the court fine) is not. Rev up a charge card knowing you can never meet the financial obligations created in using the card? Not dischargeable.

Even if you accepted the non-dischargeable debt though your own volition, is it still not a form of neo-slavery? How many in Libya's modern day slave market faced starvation and submitted themselves for sale as a better alternative to that fate?
Dischargeable debt is important, because lenders need to be responsible in their lending just as borrowers should be with their borrowing. But lenders tend to be rich, so are better are lobbying politicians to ensure that the law protects them from their own poor practice.
 

gorfias

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Dischargeable debt is important, because lenders need to be responsible in their lending just as borrowers should be with their borrowing. But lenders tend to be rich, so are better are lobbying politicians to ensure that the law protects them from their own poor practice.
Really old true story I heard: Career option welfare mom is trying to discharge debt from revved up credit card line she knew or should have known she could never discharge or even keep up with monthly payments upon. The creditor requested the court not provide her bankruptcy protection for this reason. Her lawyer countered that if these experts with MBA degrees thought her credit worthy, how would she, a high school drop out career option welfare mom, have known any better? The Judge turned to that lawyer saying, "Careful council, negligent lending practices are not illegal," then he turned to the creditor's lawyer and finished stating, "yet." Old story. Dunno if things are "better" or changed now. Lawyer whose LAN I used to maintain was against curbs on bankruptcy protection finding the more you protect the creditors, the more reckless they will get with their lending practices, with society at large having to clean up the wreckage.
 
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Ag3ma

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Really old true story I heard: Career option welfare mom is trying to discharge debt from revved up credit card line she knew or should have known she could never discharge or even keep up with monthly payments upon. The creditor requested the court not provide her bankruptcy protection for this reason. Her lawyer countered that if these experts with MBA degrees thought her credit worthy, how would she, a high school drop out career option welfare mom, have known any better? The Judge turned to that lawyer saying, "Careful council, negligent lending practices are not illegal," then he turned to the creditor's lawyer and finished stating, "yet." Old story. Dunno if things are "better" or changed now. Lawyer whose LAN I used to maintain was against curbs on bankruptcy protection finding the more you protect the creditors, the more reckless they will get with their lending practices, with society at large having to clean up the wreckage.
Yes, the world had a not insignificant financial crash 15 years ago, the burden of which is still weighing heavily on national debts across the West. We might think someone would have taken a very careful look at reckless lending practices.
 
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gorfias

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Yes, the world had a not insignificant financial crash 15 years ago, the burden of which is still weighing heavily on national debts across the West. We might think someone would have taken a very careful look at reckless lending practices.
The worst thing I've heard is that we wanted to be rid of "too big to fail" financial institutions and now have Black Rock, which is just, gigantic.
One financial stresser: When I was getting a loan, I avoided adjustable mortgages know that they can rise to a level at which I can't make payments. I hear after 2008, this became conventional wisdom and that fixed mortgages have skyrocketed relative to adjustable. Now with inflation, it is banks that are receiving fixed payments that have not kept up with inflation. These are not boring times.
 

Ag3ma

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The worst thing I've heard is that we wanted to be rid of "too big to fail" financial institutions and now have Black Rock, which is just, gigantic.
We talked about "too big to fail" financial institutions, but then they lobbied the politicians into not worrying too hard about it. So instead there were rules placed on financial institutions to segregate parts of their business and provide greater backup funds to cover unfortunate incidents without running out of liquidity. Then the financial institutions complained this was a restraint on their profits, so in numerous countries a load of these measures were susbequently watered down.

This is capitalism: the people who control the flow of money run the show.
 
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Eacaraxe

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What is a 'career option welfare mum'?
It's what neo-X's cite when challenged by the fact MNC's, traders, and the donor class at large play stupid games with everyone's money, and socialize losses when their gross negligence threatens the global economy.
 

Ag3ma

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What is a 'career option welfare mum'?
An unkind characteristation of people with very few job prospects.

That said, there is and probably always will be a chunk of the population who are pretty much unemployable. Even if they are willing to work, an employer would be better off not hiring them.
 
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Kwak

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She's a woman who Reagan invented to justify cutting safety net programs. She uses welfare money to buy Cadillacs and cigarettes.
Menthol cigarettes of course.


(ETA context)
Menthol cigarettes are purchased disproportionately by African-American smokers, with 80% of African-American smokers consuming menthol cigarettes primarily.[10][11][12] In fact, menthol tobacco marketing is specifically targeted to African Americans;[13] it is a subject of research and it has been a subject of litigation on discrimination grounds.
 

Thaluikhain

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Welfare queen was the term Reagan originally used, IIRC, though attacking poor and/or black people and/or women wasn't an entirely new concept, of course. Still around today, also of course, and in this very forum.

Anyhoo, what I've never got a satisfactory answer for was why failing companies are bailed out rather than bought out. I don't mean that the government nationalises them and puits government officials wearing those big Soviet style hats in charge to run it properly (though, I've heard worse ideas), but why doesn't the government get a large chunk of shares or summat? Can always sell them off again when things calm down if that's too socialist.
 

Baffle

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Anyhoo, what I've never got a satisfactory answer for was why failing companies are bailed out rather than bought out. I don't mean that the government nationalises them and puits government officials wearing those big Soviet style hats in charge to run it properly (though, I've heard worse ideas), but why doesn't the government get a large chunk of shares or summat? Can always sell them off again when things calm down if that's too socialist.
That's what we did in the UK with the bank bailout IIRC, and the taxpayer made a £23 billion loss on it (collectively, not each one of us) if I'm reading this right: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05748/