Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Hawki]

That's not what I said.

Pretending dudebros are against LBGT stuff is nonsense. See also, Christians, Muslims, or anyone else that is stereotyped as being against LBGT stuff. Just because there are shouty fundamentalists, does not mean they speak for all religious people. Most don't care either way and many are for LBGT stuff. It's a made-up stereotype

It's not about 'telling all stories through one piece of media'. It's about not falling for stereotypes

This is absolute sophistry.

Not every dudebro, Christian, or Muslim is going to be against LGBT people, that's true. Not 100% of any group are going to be for/against any one thing. But if you're one of these three things, you're far more likely to be against LGBT people than not. You don't see non-religious people saying "same sex is a sin." Dudebros are far more likely to protest "the gay agenda" than soyboys (for lack of a better equivalent). You can quibble however you want, these people are more likely to be anti-LGBT than other groups.

 

[thebobmaster]

Actually it does because why try to tell all stories at one through one piece of media?

Hence tailoring stuff to specific demographics.

The problem with this approach is that, once again, it "others" LGBT. You can't have gay people in straight media, that's just not OK. We need our own special media to appeal to us. Considering that one of the main goals of many if not most LGBT people is to be seen as no different than cisgender and heterosexual people, can you see how expecting media to be only specifically made for us is counter to that?

The best way I've heard it described was, ironically, by someone who later came out as transgender and transitioned, but identified as a male at the time. When trying to get someone to not feel uncomfortable around them, "I'm just another one of the guys. Same plumbing, different wiring." That's what I want from media representation of LGBT people. Not to make a big deal out of it, any more than you should make a big deal out of someone being brunette rather than blond. Until we get to that point, however, I don't want to be treated as "wrong" or "other" because I don't fit in with the majority. I don't want my own table, I want to sit at the same table as others without getting side-eyed or treated like I'm wrong.

 

[McElroy]

And what's wrong with that? Why should there be a separation between representation for cisgender people and representation for transgender people? Why should something need to be made specifically for transgender people? An example I like to use is Bioware. Your character can be gay or straight. Characters in the world have varying sexualities and gender identities. Most of the time, you'll only know if you are trying to romance them in the case of sexuality, or it's just casually a thing in the case of Krem in Dragon Age Inquisition. No big deal.

Video games have the advantage of the game part. For gamers the rest is complicated flavor text. I'll compliment Bioware (and recently Larian) for making that stuff pretty wacky in a way that fits a game very well, but it would be poor for a story told straight. The inclusion tactics we've seen more recently in some AAA releases are kinda cynical, because it's done for good press and reviews, but then again that economy runs itself (flavor isn't as expensive to develop, while it still might increase sales somewhat) if people chill and keep the game part separate from the flavor text.

Speaking of race swapping, Saga Anderson from Quantum Break was originally white. She's now black in Alan Wake II. So far no one has complained, nor had any issues.

It does make her name raise eyebrows. It's like having a Korean dude named Jae-jung Lee being swapped to a white guy with the same name.

 

[Silvanus]

University of Edinburgh academics demand cancellation of book on sex and gender

One thing that seems clear, at least to me, is that Scotland is woker than England, for you see more stuff like this happening to the North of Blighty than from its south. But even if you disagree wit

whyevolutionistrue.com

Opposing holding a book launch on a campus is not an attack on free speech, and neither is organising a protest.

And for what it's worth, at least one of the contributors to that book-- Kathleen Stock-- is quite a shitheel.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Opposing holding a book launch on a campus is not an attack on free speech, and neither is organising a protest.

And for what it's worth, at least one of the contributors to that book-- Kathleen Stock-- is quite a shitheel.

I like the opening line " Trans activists all too often act as the militia wing of the men’s rights movement. "

 

[thebobmaster]

Video games have the advantage of the game part. For gamers the rest is complicated flavor text. I'll compliment Bioware (and recently Larian) for making that stuff pretty wacky in a way that fits a game very well, but it would be poor for a story told straight. The inclusion tactics we've seen more recently in some AAA releases are kinda cynical, because it's done for good press and reviews, but then again that economy runs itself (flavor isn't as expensive to develop, while it still might increase sales somewhat) if people chill and keep the game part separate from the flavor text.

But movies and shows can do it just as easily. For an example of a movie, Strange World. Say what you will about the movie itself, but one of the main characters is gay...and just happens to be so. The only thing that makes him different from pretty much any other awkward teen crushing is that the friend he is crushing on is a guy rather than the girl of the group. You can't ignore that he's gay, and there's no hiding that he's gay, but it's just another aspect of his personality and character.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

That's not what I said.

Pretending dudebros are against LBGT stuff is nonsense. See also, Christians, Muslims, or anyone else that is stereotyped as being against LBGT stuff. Just because there are shouty fundamentalists, does not mean they speak for all religious people. Most don't care either way and many are for LBGT stuff. It's a made-up stereotype

It's not about 'telling all stories through one piece of media'. It's about not falling for stereotypes

Then there's still no reason not the create the work for a specific audience.

Because, and here's the real kicker, there's nothing stopping other demographics from engaging with said media should they wish to.

Trying to make the perfect Pasta sauce is a fools errand.


As a reminder the first about 2 - 4 seasons of Supernatural were aimed at "Dudebros" . Brothers, horror movie killing, gore, rock music, muscle cars and generally Dean sleeping with some hot girl every few weeks. That's not who their audience ended up being.

The problem with this approach is that, once again, it "others" LGBT. You can't have gay people in straight media, that's just not OK. We need our own special media to appeal to us. Considering that one of the main goals of many if not most LGBT people is to be seen as no different than cisgender and heterosexual people, can you see how expecting media to be only specifically made for us is counter to that?

No.




And here's why:

I believe in actually targeting media to demographics rather than trying to have mass appeal. Yes I like car chases, explosions and boobs but a ballet adding them in would still only see me there for the car chases explosions and boobs, it wouldn't see me there for the complex intricate dance sequences being performed with grace and precision because while I can appreciate the effort of those it's not what I enjoy and so mixing in what I enjoy wouldn't suddenly get me into ballet and would probably lessen the enjoyment of people into the actual ballet aspects of ballet.


Normalisation shouldn't be about trying to make everything the Burger King Kids club it should be about trying to have a range of media people can choose to engage with or not. Part of the issue is the modern shift to massive single releases that try to be everything for everyone because companies hope it will make them more money but that costs more to make anyway rather than smaller entries that cost less but might appeal to less people. Being a distinct thing with a distinct identity and distinct market in mind can and will attract people who want to engage with said kind of content.

Bollywood movies are massive, hell in the UK there's a massive scene for them and here's the thing. They're not trying to tone down the Bollywood dance number elements etc for other audiences, they don't care, they're still doing that stuff and it's a case of "You can engage with these movies or not we're not chasing you" as the mentality.

The best way I've heard it described was, ironically, by someone who later came out as transgender and transitioned, but identified as a male at the time. When trying to get someone to not feel uncomfortable around them, "I'm just another one of the guys. Same plumbing, different wiring." That's what I want from media representation of LGBT people. Not to make a big deal out of it, any more than you should make a big deal out of someone being brunette rather than blond. Until we get to that point, however, I don't want to be treated as "wrong" or "other" because I don't fit in with the majority. I don't want my own table, I want to sit at the same table as others without getting side-eyed or treated like I'm wrong.

Ok so action movie with car chases, explosions and dicks then?

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Opposing holding a book launch on a campus is not an attack on free speech, and neither is organising a protest.

And for what it's worth, at least one of the contributors to that book-- Kathleen Stock-- is quite a shitheel.

This weekend, a transphobic ‘women’s rights’ conference will be held at [venue],” the Instagram post read. “Prominent transphobes such as Joanna Cherry and Julie Bindel will be speaking, amongst many many others. STAND WITH US in telling [the venue] that Glasgow DOES NOT ACCEPT THIS, and that they MUST DROP THE EVENT!

So protesting is now trying to force the event to be fully shut down?

In before Oh but the event went ahead anyway so it doesn't matter, to which I reply only due to it being potentially legally challenged.

This is like when people claimed it was just people voicing their free speech and protesting when people threatened then smashed windows of a Pizza parlour because it agree to let Ethan Van Sciver do a signing event there.

 

[BrawlMan]

It does make her name raise eyebrows. It's like having a Korean dude named Jae-jung Lee being swapped to a white guy with the same name.

So what? The example you bring up is a false equivalence. While I don't know too many black people with the first name Saga (or many people in general with that name), I've known and met plenty of blacks with the last name Anderson, Jackson, or Jones. Not every black person has a "black" sounding/ghetto name. Get that Hollywood shit out of your head. You wouldn't have even known about race swapping until I or someone else had said something. The fact no one has problem with this, shows how much of a non-issue it is. Especially if that character had a bit part in a crappy cover shooter, where not even a majority of hardcore Remedy fans knew who she (assumed her to be completely new) was until Remedy bothered pointing her out. Both versions of the character are an American woman that works for the FBI. The only difference is now that she's black instead of white. That's literally it.

But movies and shows can do it just as easily. For an example of a movie, Strange World. Say what you will about the movie itself, but one of the main characters is gay...and just happens to be so. The only thing that makes him different from pretty much any other awkward teen crushing is that the friend he is crushing on is a guy rather than the girl of the group. You can't ignore that he's gay, and there's no hiding that he's gay, but it's just another aspect of his personality and character.

This isn't the first time he's had garbage or weird takes when it comes to inclusivity and diversity. I have my problems with the AAA as usual, but being diverse or inclusive isn't one of them. When it's done right of course. Though it's usually the AA or indies especially that gets this right or all the better for it. As for a AAA example: no one complains about how inclusive and diverse the Street Fighter franchise is. Capcom had their minor slip ups with Birdie (who was originally white in SF1, but most fans didn't know this until the Internet and early 2000s) and Balrog/Mike Bison with how they looked. Yet Capcom went ahead fixed their mistakes by having both characters not look as stereotypically drawn or have better looking and more interesting African/black/non-ambiguously brown dark-skinned characters in later sequels. I mainly referring to III, V, and VI. Especially III and VI.

There was Posion as well. She went from villain "you beat up cuz she's a villain that's trans and not a real woman!" to a fan favorite everyone enjoys, becomes an ex-villain and takes a career in pro-wrestling management. Managing to do something positive with her life, and help another ex-gang member along the way named Hugo Andore.

FTR, @thebobmaster, this is the conversation I was referring to last time with McElroy about this subject.

Funny events in anti-woke world

There is as much factual, objective evidence for transgender Gwen as there is for cisgender Gwen, the latter just has societal inertia. Which isn't evidence I'd say the closest thing to evidence that she isn't trans is that if she was it'd mean her father would be fully aware and accepting of...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

 

[Silvanus]

So protesting is now trying to force the event to be fully shut down?

A question: do you believe the right to free speech gives people an entitlement to a large public platform?

 

[McElroy]

snip

To be fair, the race swap explains it better than coming up with it on their own. And that makes it the kind of cynical inclusivity that I'd consider a funny event in the woke world. It's just how things are done nowadays.

But movies and shows can do it just as easily. For an example of a movie, Strange World. Say what you will about the movie itself, but one of the main characters is gay...and just happens to be so. The only thing that makes him different from pretty much any other awkward teen crushing is that the friend he is crushing on is a guy rather than the girl of the group. You can't ignore that he's gay, and there's no hiding that he's gay, but it's just another aspect of his personality and character.

I don't think that's the same. The relationships between characters in a video game can be very fluid from playthrough to playthrough, from one dialogue choice to the next. Like, the recent inclusion of transgender characters in some popular FPS games means that my mission to win in most cases is to literally shoot every single one of them I see. Couldn't do that pre-2022.

More specifically about your example, (can't comment on what happens in the movie), a guy in that situation would still have to come out to the other guy and that's different from the dynamic between opposite sexes. In the video game version of that movie you could maybe have them stay as friends or maybe the other guy dies in the end if you didn't complete a side mission. And in reality the other guy could tell him to buzz off, because he's not a queer. There are more or less unique "tough parts" in gay relationships compared to hetero ones, and there is a time and place to ignore them, but since we've normalized the tough parts of hetero relationships, then maybe it's possible to normalize the similar stuff that queer people have. Most people can relate to it if done right.

This isn't the first time he's had garbage or weird takes when it comes to inclusivity and diversity.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of it. I urge gamers to see right through the lie they tell themselves: that all the money and hard work in an AAA production goes toward making the game as good as possible. Because no, a lot goes into broadening the demographic reach. It's still rare to manage to please everyone, though BG 3 has succeeded.

 

[BrawlMan]

It's just how things are done nowadays.

Your argument there is full of shit. You don't look hard enough. The best part is, that no one has to even look that hard to find well written characters that aren't non-white and aren't race swaps.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of it.

Nope. You think you do and every single thing figured out.

I urge gamers to see right through the lie they tell themselves: that all the money and hard work in an AAA production goes toward making the game as good as possible.

I agree to an extent, but you already know that I have no interests in most AAA games, because of the shitty monetization/FOMO practices big publishers and developers gas lightning their target audience into thinking it's okay and nothing wrong. Not diversity and being inclusive. While there are companies who do diversity and representations under false pretenses or for the sake of money only (Blizzard-Activision and Ubisoft being the most guilty), that still shouldn't undermined the companies that get it right and be good at the same time. Sega, Capcom, and especially the smaller developers out there not screwing the consumers, nor treating them like thundering dumb asses.

Because no, a lot goes into broadening the demographic reach.

And there is nothing wrong with, so long as it's done right or done with proper care.

It's still rare to manage to please everyone, though BG 3 has succeeded.

No shit. It's why so many companies failed with the next big game that will kill/crush "COD/Fornite/Destiny/Gears, etc." Broadest appeal under the shallowest terms and minimum effort. While I am happy with BG3's high success, it didn't please "everyone".

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

A question: do you believe the right to free speech gives people an entitlement to a large public platform?

If there is clamour to hear them speak. Which in this case there is the conference was organised.

I don't believe a person should have nefarious or malicious attempts being made to kick them off a platform by others short of them having been convicted of something heinous or in cases of what I'd call turnabout being fair play.

Unlike the USA, the UK actually does have laws round political discrimination.

 

[Silvanus]

If there is clamour to hear them speak. Which in this case there is the conference was organised.

I don't believe a person should have nefarious or malicious attempts being made to kick them off a platform by others short of them having been convicted of something heinous or in cases of what I'd call turnabout being fair play.

Unlike the USA, the UK actually does have laws round political discrimination.

If its dependent on there being wide interest in what they have to say, then that's not really a right, is it? Rights don't rely on popularity.

And does this mean you'd say the person loses the right to a large public platform if what they say is unpopular?

 

[McElroy]

While I am happy with BG3's high success, it didn't please "everyone".

Okay, what does that mean? Elaborate a bit. You must know more, unless you're just being anal about "everyone" not meaning literally everybody.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

This isn't the first time he's had garbage or weird takes when it comes to inclusivity and diversity.

Oh look it Brawlman with another ignorant take telling everyone what my position is and charging ahead pig headedly on another of his screes about how I'm the devil or something.

Your argument there is full of shit. You don't look hard enough. The best part is, that no one has to even look that hard to find well written characters that aren't non-white and aren't race swaps.

Funny how I literally made this fucking point a number of pages ago.........................

Nope. You think you do and every single thing figured out.

I dunno seems more like you don't these days.

I agree to an extent, but you already know that I have no interests in most AAA games, because of the shitty monetization/FOMO practices big publishers and developers gas lightning their target audience into thinking it's okay and nothing wrong. Not diversity and being inclusive. While there are companies who do diversity and representations under false pretenses or for the sake of money only (Blizzard-Activision and Ubisoft being the most guilty), that still shouldn't undermined the companies that get it right and be good at the same time. Sega, Capcom, and especially the smaller developers out there not screwing the consumers, nor treating them like thundering dumb asses.

And there's the issue, a number of them seem to put out press releases or direct the press to specific aspects seemingly. Most of the companies you point out getting it right, they're not the ones shouting about it most.

And there is nothing wrong with, so long as it's done right or done with proper care.

Other than the fact it's trying to make perfect pasta sauce but hey why actually have something tailored for a demographic when you can make something watered down with many other demographics tried to be put into the mix right?

No shit. It's why so many companies failed with the next big game that will kill/crush "COD/Fornite/Destiny/Gears, etc." Broadest appeal under the shallowest terms and minimum effort. While I am happy with BG3's high success, it didn't please "everyone".

You're so close to realising the issue.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

If its dependent on there being wide interest in what they have to say, then that's not really a right, is it? Rights don't rely on popularity.

Ok,
They organised the conference
They funded it
They arranged for a venue and paid for it.

why are they not allowed to use the venue they paid for to host the conference they organised for a group which I'd strongly remind you is not an illegal organisation in the UK?

Don't like what's there?

Don't go or stand outside and protest peacefully.

Want your stuff heard? Organise a conference, get money in support, hire a venue, have the conference. Don't get pissy because some group now isn't letting you onto the platform they have.

And does this mean you'd say the person loses the right to a large public platform if what they say is unpopular?

No.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Okay, what does that mean? Elaborate a bit. You must know more, unless you're just being anal about "everyone" not meaning literally everybody.

Complaints I've heard so far (mostly on twitter, mostly one off complaints)

It's turnbased and doesn't have a real time option.
Ew straight people can romance my husbando / Waifu too why didn't they make it so characters had set sexualities?
Why doesn't the world acknowledge my trans-ness at all, no-one comments on it it's super weird what's the point in playing a Trans character if everyone is just going to treat you like if you were a man or woman?
Game doesn't have enough authentically black hairstyes.

 

[Silvanus]

Ok,
They organised the conference
They funded it
They arranged for a venue and paid for it.

why are they not allowed to use the venue they paid for to host the conference they organised for a group which I'd strongly remind you is not an illegal organisation in the UK?

Don't like what's there?

Don't go or stand outside and protest peacefully.

Want your stuff heard? Organise a conference, get money in support, hire a venue, have the conference. Don't get pissy because some group now isn't letting you onto the platform they have.

Looking back, I think the conversation got a bit confused because I quoted the wrong link. I meant to quote the link in Hawki's post to the article about a campus book launch, but I accidentally quoted the other link, to the Julie Bindel article about the conference. My mistake.

Now, as a broad principle, i don't think venues should be obligated to accept bookings from individuals or groups with hateful or discriminatory platforms, so the same arguments generally apply.

No.

In that case, why would those people who wanted their book launch on campus have any more of a right than... I don't know, me? Is it an infringement of my right to free speech that I haven't been invited?

 

[BrawlMan]

Okay, what does that mean? Elaborate a bit. You must know more, unless you're just being anal about "everyone" not meaning literally everybody.

Perhaps I was too subtle. You implied BG3 pleased everyone. I'm glad the game is good, got it's old audience hook with a huge newbie boom, but Larain's intentions were never to try and please everyone. There are people that aren't either not interested, have problems with the game's mechanics, or feel the late game is a letdown in some fashion. The reason BG3 has gotten so much praise with a new and larger audience, because it's a large scale game with many options, but doesn't go out of their way to screw consumers over heavy microtransactions BS, be exclusive for the sake of it, and treats proper feedback with respect and understanding. That's what happens when so many people have been screwed over, lied to, or scammed on multiple fronts from a corrupt industry where most learn nothing a majority of the time. Everything in BG3 seems like heaven or is heaven to shit that's been shat out for the past decade in a half.

D&D has always broaden its appeal to many in other media with success (there were failures of course, but they learned from their mistakes), and Baldur's Gate is no exception. At the same time, D&D will never please everyone as a whole, and there's plenty of people not interested or don't like D&D, no matter the media or medium.

Oh look it Brawlman with another ignorant take telling everyone what my position is and charging ahead pig headedly on another of his screes about how I'm the devil or something.

Said by the man willing to suck Trump's dick, downplay his and his pathetic cronies illegal actions (especially those terrorist at the Capitol), and make excuses for racists, homophones, anti-LBGTQ, and sexists all across the board. The one who acts more like snow flake than those he accuses on the Left or are progressive. Said by the man who constantly goal posts when proven wrong and full of shit time and time again. You have the most shittiest takes next to tstorm.

Funny how I literally made this fucking point a number of pages ago.........................

A majority of your points don't count for shit, I have you on ignore, and I don't live on this topic 24/7 nor post much on it. Because most of this thread is a farce made by someone (CriticalGaming) who bitched about some other nobody journalist complain about an all white developer in a country that is predominantly white. Wasn't even called "the Woke" thread, and all that proves that he had nothing to stand or better do. Then he "forgot" about making the thread.

I dunno seems more like you me these days.

Glad you admitted you have a problem. Trying work on that and being a decent human being, and maybe you'll get some where. Or possibly never. I don't care; that's a you problem

And there's the issue, a number of them seem to put out press releases or direct the press to specific aspects seemingly. Most of the companies you point out getting it right, they're not the ones shouting about it most.

You're the one crying about it more than me, yet you don't have a problem with racial and social injustices. You don't stand for shit, other than being a contrarian and willing to be a slave to those that abuse their power to hurt others. So long as it isn't you.

Other than the fact it's trying to make perfect pasta sauce but hey why actually have something tailored for a demographic when you can make something watered down with many other demographics tried to be put into the mix right?

You don't read or pay attention much, do ya? So much from a so called "genius".

You're so close to realising the issue.

And you never realize shit and pretend to know the issue. Sucks to be you. You have fun crying, acting miserable, and complaining like usual. I'll be somewhere else having fun.