Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Ag3ma

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The paragraph where you speak of colonies in the past tense?
Your objections here are of ever diminishing returns, and they were pretty scant even when you started. Sometimes, having the humility to admit you missed the point is more constructive than trying to make out someone else made an error.
 
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tstorm823

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Your objections here are of ever diminishing returns, and they were pretty scant even when you started. Sometimes, having the humility to admit you missed the point is more constructive than trying to make out someone else made an error.
I not trying to make out that you made an error, I did not understand what you meant specifically (though I think it has little bearing on the rest of my post).

I do, however, think your original phrasing was sufficiently vague as to be open to misinterpretation, which most things are and is not really a mark against you, but it does make it pretty unjustified when you got snippy that I didn't divine your intentions on the first pass. Sometimes, clarifying your point is more constructive than trying to make out like you shouldn't have to.
 

Ag3ma

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I do, however, think your original phrasing was sufficiently vague as to be open to misinterpretation, which most things are and is not really a mark against you, but it does make it pretty unjustified when you got snippy that I didn't divine your intentions on the first pass.
I explained I meant "created" on first query, plus a tangential discussion on colonies. I didn't think it was snippy.

You then asked me what part referred to creation, and I answered I thought the whole of did. This might be terse, but the first paragraph of that post explicitly references Israel's creation, the second paragraph elements of how it was created, and the fourth that due to relatively recent foundation, that much less time has elapsed to settle matters with the native population. I struggle to see why this required further direction, and then why you are querying one use of tense.
 
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tstorm823

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I explained I meant "created" on first query, plus a tangential discussion on I didn't think it was snippy.
The explanation there did not require anything after the comma. That's the snippy part, the "as implicit from the rest". The tangential discussion was fine and taken as such, the irritating part was the implicit "how could you not understand that". Also the italics. It was a fine use of italics I suppose, but there's just something about italics that is inherently annoying.
 

Ag3ma

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You have to be intelligent enough to see the flaw in the logic there, right?
I certainly don't think there's a good statistical basis to argue that the Hamas list undercounts. Although it's plausible that it does undercount, because it's reasonable to suspect people are blown to bits and go unidentified, buried under rubble and not found, etc.

I think Biden's comment is also, generally, despicable. That civilian deaths are a side effect of waging war is a truism, but it should not be employed to cheapen their deaths. Irrespective of trust in Gaza's Ministry of Health, Palestinian civilian casualties are undoubtedly very significant and almost certainly much higher than Israeli civilian deaths from this conflict already. Brushing them off and trivialising them is ugly, especially with the likelihood that there are a lot more to come. An Israeli civilian death is a tragedy and a Palestinian civilian death is an equal tragedy. There's also the rank hypocrisy of, at the same time, acting with outrage at civilian deaths caused by Russia in Ukraine. Civilian deaths don't magically become fine and dandy just because they're inflicted by you and your mates.
 
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tstorm823

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I certainly don't think there's a good statistical basis to argue that the Hamas list undercounts. Although it's plausible that it does undercount, because it's reasonable to suspect people are blown to bits and go unidentified, buried under rubble and not found, etc.
It's entirely plausible that it undercounts, but "they missed 3 of the 46 we can verify, so extrapolate that rate to the tens of thousands we can't" is poor use of statistics. There is no reason to believe the select few they know concretely are a good representative sample of Hamas' reports.
I think Biden's comment is also, generally, despicable. That civilian deaths are a side effect of waging war is a truism, but it should not be employed to cheapen their deaths. Irrespective of trust in Gaza's Ministry of Health, Palestinian civilian casualties are undoubtedly very significant and almost certainly much higher than Israeli civilian deaths from this conflict already. Brushing them off and trivialising them is ugly, especially with the likelihood that there are a lot more to come. An Israeli civilian death is a tragedy and a Palestinian civilian death is an equal tragedy. There's also the rank hypocrisy of, at the same time, acting with outrage at civilian deaths caused by Russia in Ukraine. Civilian deaths don't magically become fine and dandy just because they're inflicted by you and your mates.
If he was a more talented politician, the more reasonable thing to dispute is the responsibility for those deaths. In the broad sense, there's an argument that the blame lies at the feet of Hamas, but also in the narrow sense, we don't have any reliable way of knowing how these people may have died. I can't tell you exactly what happened in that hospital parking lot, but I can guarantee, if it was a rocket fired by Palestinian terrorists, Hamas would still be listing every victim on their list of civilian casualties. Wherever war takes place, civilians end up the victim of both sides, comparing lists of dead civilians doesn't actually tell you what violence is being perpetrated by whom, just where it is taking place.
 

Seanchaidh

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all this over an "if anything"

It's entirely plausible that it undercounts, but "they missed 3 of the 46 we can verify, so extrapolate that rate to the tens of thousands we can't" is poor use of statistics. There is no reason to believe the select few they know concretely are a good representative sample of Hamas' reports.
46 is a surprisingly good sample size for most purposes, actually. though in this case it's arguably not a random sample, or you could even argue that the sample size is one because the proper unit is strikes rather than casualties.
 
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Satinavian

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It's entirely plausible that it undercounts, but "they missed 3 of the 46 we can verify, so extrapolate that rate to the tens of thousands we can't" is poor use of statistics. There is no reason to believe the select few they know concretely are a good representative sample of Hamas' reports.
People generally trust the Hamas list because experts worldwide agree that Hamas numbers in the past were pretty accurate and there has been nothing hinting at being different this time.

Now obviouls testing the list by method of looking for confirmed dead in it is not the proper method if one suspects the list to be padded. One would have to do the reverse : picking numbers from the list and looking if those are actually confirmed dead.
 
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Terminal Blue

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This isn't ethnic cleansing (both Palestinians and Israelis are Semites) but it's definitely looking like a genocide.
This point is a bit of a pet peeve of mine because the idea of "Semites" as a group of people is silly and comes from century old scientific racism. There is no reason to view Jews as a single ethnic group, let alone basically the entire population of the middle east plus white European Jews for some reason.

Semitic languages are a language group, not an ethnic group. Hebrew, Arabic and the various languages of Ethiopia are all linguistically similar, but that doesn't mean all the people who speak those languages are fundamentally the same. It certainly doesn't mean there aren't important cultural and physical differences between them which would mark them as distinct ethnic groups.

It is absolutely appropriate to describe what is going on as ethnic cleansing. It is a deliberate attempt to remove one ethnic group from a region in order to replace them with another. That is what ethnic cleansing means.
 

Terminal Blue

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Israel is, to all intents and purposes, the last European colony.
I don't think colonies were allowed to conduct their own foreign policy, develop nuclear weapons in secret or carry out infowar operations inside the metropole.

Israel has an intentionally nebulous relationship to the West. Like many, many aspects of Israeli policy there's a bit of a paradox going on, because Israel likes to strategically present itself as a secular Western aligned country while also pointedly rejecting Western liberalism and pursuing policies which isolate it from many European countries and populations.

However, with typical imperial arrogance, they decided some other poor sods - the Palestinians - could make way for it.
There is a massive blind spot in early Zionist thought when it comes to the population already living in Palestine. The general assumption is that since European Jews were a relatively wealthy minority they could simply buy the land and everything would be fine. The people selling the land will get a good deal and be happy, and they can use that money to move somewhere else and buy new property.

The problem is that Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. Its agricultural system was still basically medieval and much of the population were tenant farmers working for predominantly Turkish landlords. When the Empire collapsed after World War 1, those landlords saw the writing on the wall and left. Thus, ownership of the land became disputed.

This meant that when Zionist organizations moved in and started buying up the land, they were often buying from absent landlords who hadn't set foot on their property in decades. The tenant farmers who were working the land and were pretty used to not having landlords didn't get any of the money, and thus were thus put in the position of losing their livelihoods with no compensation because some Jewish guys showed up one day and claimed the land was theirs now. This naturally caused conflict and resentment which escalated very quickly.

Western countries were generally pretty ambivalent around the creation of Israel. We have this narrative of the US as being 100% pro-Israel from day zero, but much of the US government was incredibly aware of how fucked the situation was. Meanwhile the British had just fully checked out and just wanted to leave before these people started killing each other.
 
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Eacaraxe

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...Brushing them off and trivialising them is ugly, especially with the likelihood that there are a lot more to come. An Israeli civilian death is a tragedy and a Palestinian civilian death is an equal tragedy. There's also the rank hypocrisy of, at the same time, acting with outrage at civilian deaths caused by Russia in Ukraine. Civilian deaths don't magically become fine and dandy just because they're inflicted by you and your mates.
On the flip side, every man, woman, and child in Palestine is being considered an enemy combatant, and every last building a valid military target, for simply existing in the West Bank regardless of specifics. Both Herzog and Netanyahu have said, repeatedly, this exact thing in press conferences and official statements, and doubled down on it to ensure there's no room for misinterpretation or misconstruction. Herzog's entire little temper tantrum on live international television last month, was all about this exact statement (and being called out on it by the international press).

But at the same time, we're to consider Israeli settlers, who seized homes and buildings by force with support from Israeli cops and military, and occupy those homes and buildings under fortification and heavily policed by Israeli cops and military, civilians. That's not a one-way street. If Palestinian civilians are to be considered combatants regardless of status due to accused proximity to combatants -- and they unequivocally are -- so should Israeli civilians living in settlements under arms alongside active, uniformed, military.
 
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Dreiko

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This point is a bit of a pet peeve of mine because the idea of "Semites" as a group of people is silly and comes from century old scientific racism. There is no reason to view Jews as a single ethnic group, let alone basically the entire population of the middle east plus white European Jews for some reason.

Semitic languages are a language group, not an ethnic group. Hebrew, Arabic and the various languages of Ethiopia are all linguistically similar, but that doesn't mean all the people who speak those languages are fundamentally the same. It certainly doesn't mean there aren't important cultural and physical differences between them which would mark them as distinct ethnic groups.

It is absolutely appropriate to describe what is going on as ethnic cleansing. It is a deliberate attempt to remove one ethnic group from a region in order to replace them with another. That is what ethnic cleansing means.
That's a weird objection that I've never seen brought up when something is called "anti-semetic". Why is it when you apply the semetic label to non-jews do people suddenly get all focused on undoing the term?

I think jewish people can be both semites and white europeans. There's no contradiction here, since like you say it's about the language, and ethnicity and language go hand in hand. It's like calling people Latino, which inherently applies to afro-latinos and white ones and folks of Mayan and Aztec origin and every mix between them. Nobody's saying you can't also be white or Arab too while being a semite.


And yeah a lot of the latin american countries all have various cultures and histories and so on too, but that doesn't stop us from bunching em together too. So why start minding that sort of thing now.
 

Seanchaidh

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