Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

dreng3

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While I'm well aware that the topic of Israel-Palestine is a hot potato I believe we might be seeing some sort of prelude to the beginning of the end of the conflict, or at least another invasion of Gaza.

I've only posted a single source but the conflict has many aspects, involving a court case about ownership of a property from which Palestinians were expelled (Sheikh Jarrah), a Palestinian riot with several possible causes that resulted in the storming of the al-Aqsa mosque by Israeli police. A massive rocket attack on Israel coming from Hamas controlled Gaza. Counter bombings of Gaza by Israeli military. A Hamas call for ceasefire which was refused. And lastly the amassing of troops on the border of Gaza and an announcement that plans are being drawn up for a ground invasion of Gaza.

All of this has of course resulted in a multitude of horrible incidents, anti-semitic actions in Germany and Spain, lynchings and riots in Israel, and the leveling of large apartments buildings in Gaza.

Various politicians have commented on the conflict, with Biden declaring support for Israel and that Israel has a right to self-defense. Former presidential candidate Andrew Yang also declared support for Israel, though he later reconsidered, seemingly following public pressure.
A UN resolution has been attempted to condemn the storming of the al-Aqsa mosque, however it was vetoed by the US.


This is all around horrible and the extensive conflict in the region has brought sorrow and suffering to many, and it might still be without a clear end in sight. I wish that everyone in Israel and Palestine stays safe and hope for cooler heads to prevail.
 

Agema

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Same shit, different year.

...A Hamas call for ceasefire which was refused...
If Hamas doesn't want a fight, maybe they shouldn't fire rockets at Israel. It's asking a bit much to try to murder a load of Israeli citizens and then suddenly say "Hey, let's not make a big deal about this".
 
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dreng3

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Same shit, different year.



If Hamas doesn't want a fight, maybe they shouldn't fire rockets at Israel. It's asking a bit much to try to murder a load of Israeli citizens and then suddenly say "Hey, let's not make a big deal about this".
I don't disagree on that, though I'm conflicted about the need to demonstrate willingness to use violence in the defense of sovereignty. I'd prefer if the citizens of Gaza fought back solely against the military of Israel, but that also doesn't seem possible. Besides, the western nations were more than happy to use incendiary bombs and completely demolish cities during the second world war, both in Japan and Germany, so to an extent it is a proven strategy.
 

Agema

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I don't disagree on that, though I'm conflicted about the need to demonstrate willingness to use violence in the defense of sovereignty. I'd prefer if the citizens of Gaza fought back solely against the military of Israel, but that also doesn't seem possible. Besides, the western nations were more than happy to use incendiary bombs and completely demolish cities during the second world war, both in Japan and Germany, so to an extent it is a proven strategy.
What every nation that tried mass, indiscriminate bombing in WW2 (should have) learnt is that it doesn't work. And frankly, terrorism doesn't crack up to much, either.

What it does is provide a certain measure of symbolic resistance, I agree. Plus also that it satisfies the bloodlust of the vengeance-seeking masses as well, which is handy when such people are a substantial part of your group's membership.

Hamas are a dead end. They have long since demonstrated they have nothing to offer the Palestinians for the future, and merely ensure Gaza's development is retarded indefinitely. They just have the same old useless routines to cycle through.
 

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If Hamas doesn't want a fight, maybe they shouldn't fire rockets at Israel. It's asking a bit much to try to murder a load of Israeli citizens and then suddenly say "Hey, let's not make a big deal about this".
Not saying you're wrong. Also, murdering a bunch of people, including children, in the 3rd most sacred site of the Palestinians... sounds like Hamas was being nice with that retaliation.
 

dreng3

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What it does is provide a certain measure of symbolic resistance, I agree. Plus also that it satisfies the bloodlust of the vengeance-seeking masses as well, which is handy when such people are a substantial part of your group's membership.

Hamas are a dead end. They have long since demonstrated they have nothing to offer the Palestinians for the future, and merely ensure Gaza's development is retarded indefinitely. They just have the same old useless routines to cycle through.
On this we are in total agreement. Of course it doesn't help that people like Bibi benefits immensely from Hamas being the warmongering idiotic terrorists that they are.

Ideally the first step in any kind of peace process would probably be a firm halt to settlements, backing out of some settled areas, and easing the blockade of Gaza on the condition that Hamas steps down or is removed from power. Of course the conflict has gone on for so long that neither side trusts the other, so it would have to be handled by a neutral third party.

Edit: And of course Hamas is a terrorist organization so negotiating with them is a slippery slope.
 
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dreng3

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Just going to point out that its Eid. Great timing
And it is shortly before the opposition was supposed to present their government coalition, but now that the conflict is raging again Bibi has assumed some emergency powers and mistrust of arabs, Palestinian or not, is rising.
This conflict is pretty much the political example of "no atheists in the foxholes" Keep fanning the flames and people will have to support you, Hamas and Likud both.
 

Seanchaidh

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Israel can go fuck itself, it's 100% in the wrong and this isn't a complex issue. They are gleefully doing ethnic cleansing and murder and those whose ethnicity is being cleansed are resisting. One side has one of the best funded military organizations in the world, the other has crude rockets and stones. It is not a "conflict", it is a slaughter.
Meanwhile in Europe, it's political correctness gone mad
 
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dreng3

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Israel can go fuck itself, it's 100% in the wrong and this isn't a complex issue. They are gleefully doing ethnic cleansing and murder and those whose ethnicity is being cleansed are resisting. One side has one of the best funded military organizations in the world, the other has crude rockets and stones. It is not a "conflict", it is a slaughter.
It is a very contentious topic, because after all, one side is literally lead by a terrorist organization, while the other is constantly violating the human rights of Palestinians.
Personally I think Palestine should have sovereignty and territorial waters and airspace. However I also realize that some Palestinians have committed acts that can be considered terroristic in nature.

This is a conflict that has gone on longer than many people have been alive, and at this point the conflict and bad blood seem so entrenched that something drastic must happen if there is to be hope of peace. Perhaps the entire region just needs to enter some sort of conservatorship. Israel and Palestine won't have the right to govern themselves until some solid rules have been established and enforced for a generation or so. Of course that is a pipe dream since neither party would willingly consent to such and arrangement and no nation would want to take on the role of conservator.
 

tippy2k2

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I'm not going to pretend that I understand this conflict...like...at all. It is absolutely one of my blind spots politically (like most foreign affairs as I find thinking about our own shittastic shit to deal with depressing enough, let alone have to deal with other countries shittastic shit) but...

I don't see how any country can bomb the shit out of apartment buildings (allegedly using White Phosphorus) and then be convinced "Those are the good guys".

I get the conflict is more complicated than one side good and one side bad but everything I've seen of this conflict is Palestine having rocks and rockets Israel just shoots down is being met by Israel carpet bombing the fuck out of civilian areas (supposedly the rockets are being stored in said apartment but I remember when we invaded Iraq because they supposedly had WMDs so...)
 
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dreng3

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I'm not going to pretend that I understand this conflict...like...at all. It is absolutely one of my blind spots politically (like most foreign affairs as I find thinking about our own shittastic shit to deal with depressing enough, let alone have to deal with other countries shittastic shit) but...

I don't see how any country can bomb the shit out if apartment buildings (allegedly using White Phosphorus) and then be convinced "Those are the good guys".

I get the conflict is more complicated than one side good and one side bad but everything I've seen of this conflict is Palestine having rocks and rockets Israel just shoots down is being met by Israel carpet bombing the fuck out of civilian areas (supposedly the rockets are being stored in said apartment but I remember when we invaded Iraq because they supposedly had WMDs so...)
It is probably one of the most complex and longest running conflict in modern history, and I don't think there is going to be an end to it any time soon. And it is a hot button issue for a lot of people, and rightly so because both sides are led by assholes.
 

Seanchaidh

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I get the conflict is more complicated than one side good and one side bad
it's literally not more complicated than that, though that's not a precise description.

It is a very contentious topic, because after all, one side is literally lead by a terrorist organization,
Like the United States and UK during WW2.

while the other is constantly violating the human rights of Palestinians.
To which "terrorism" seems a perfectly reasonable response. Whether it is a good idea tactically or strategically is a matter for Palestinians to decide, no one else. If you want to say that morally they should limit themselves to non-violent resistance, go ahead and pass through all the Israeli checkpoints and put your own body between the Israeli military and settlers and the populations they are displacing and murdering. Or shut up about it.

Personally I think Palestine should have sovereignty and territorial waters and airspace. However I also realize that some Palestinians have committed acts that can be considered terroristic in nature.
This is how Israel began:


And they began as they meant to (and did) go on.

This is a conflict that has gone on longer than many people have been alive, and at this point the conflict and bad blood seem so entrenched that something drastic must happen if there is to be hope of peace. Perhaps the entire region just needs to enter some sort of conservatorship. Israel and Palestine won't have the right to govern themselves until some solid rules have been established and enforced for a generation or so. Of course that is a pipe dream since neither party would willingly consent to such and arrangement and no nation would want to take on the role of conservator.
Give Hamas precision-guided missiles so they can target military assets precisely. And anti-tank weapons. And anti-aircraft weapons. End all support for Israel's military and shoot down anything they put in the air.
 

Thaluikhain

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End all support for Israel's military and shoot down anything they put in the air.
You'd annihilate the US military-industrial complex if you stopped the US giving Israel money they can only spend on weapons from the US. Or they'd get the US to start another big war, I guess.

Actually, people in the US keep complaining about the EU not having a strong enough military, the US can subsidise them instead for a bit, see how that works out.
 
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dreng3

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To which "terrorism" seems a perfectly reasonable response. Whether it is a good idea tactically or strategically is a matter for Palestinians to decide, no one else. If you want to say that morally they should limit themselves to non-violent resistance, go ahead and pass through all the Israeli checkpoints and put your own body between the Israeli military and settlers and the populations they are displacing and murdering. Or shut up about it.
This flashes me back to one of my favourite novels(Madame Terror), in which Palestine purchases an advanced submarine from Russia and conducts a series of attacks on Israeli military targets thus eventually forcing actual peace talks (though the continuation of the novel makes it clear that everything gained is lost again within a year or two). But I think some of the lessons I learned from the book is still valid. Modern conflict relies a lot on soft power, you can't allow youself to be portrayed as, or considered, a terrorist, if you are to fight back you need to appear as a soldier, you wear a uniform and you state your goals clearly, you don't expressly target civillians and you never start rambling about the will of god or religion.

Of course the modern palestinians don't have a super submarine and the opportunities to meaningfully engage Israel in battle are minimal and never cost-effective.

I think Palestianians need to fight back, but I think it has to be done in a more organized manner and with better leadership. Fact is, declaring that Israel has no right to exist will sour the public opinion, wanting to genocide the population of Israel will sour the public opinion, constantly talking about god give rights will sour the public opinions.
The goal of the conflict is to win, and in order to win there must be an understanding of, and adherence to, the western notions of proper conduct in war, because ultimately the legitimacy and stability of any government will still rely on western nations and the public opinion in said nations.

/rant end
/sorry current events this week have been hell and I'm so angry at the world right now
 

Thaluikhain

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The goal of the conflict is to win, and in order to win there must be an understanding of, and adherence to, the western notions of proper conduct in war,
So they can lose the proper way, due to not being able to compete in a conventional war? Historical, that idea doesn't tend to appeal for some reason.
 

happyninja42

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It is a very contentious topic, because after all, one side is literally lead by a terrorist organization, while the other is constantly violating the human rights of Palestinians.
Personally I think Palestine should have sovereignty and territorial waters and airspace. However I also realize that some Palestinians have committed acts that can be considered terroristic in nature.
Those things don't need to be mutually exclusive though. You can give an entire PEOPLE their own land and sovereignty, AND also try the people who have broken laws and committed violent acts against a population as well. Granted it's of course never so clear cut, but I mean, there is no fundamental reason it needs to be an Either/Or scenario.
 

dreng3

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So they can lose the proper way, due to not being able to compete in a conventional war? Historical, that idea doesn't tend to appeal for some reason.
The point of any victory is to sustain the victory. Even if you win today you might be drowned by sanctions making your newfound freedom entirely unsustainable. I'm largely concerned by the fact that the armed forces in Palestine are hurting their own chances of gaining sovereignty by choosing the wrong targets.


At this point the US is declaring their support for Israel, because it is easy to paint the Palestinians as led by Hamas and thus all terrorists.
What if the Palestinians defied expectations, what if there weren't random rockets, but instead targeted attacks on Israeli military installations and soldiers?

Just look at the way US support dropped for the Vietnam war, that should be the goal of any Palestinian insurgent, the nations supporting Israel need to feel that such support is not only not worthwhile it is actually detrimental to their goals.