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> I'm starting to think this game was robbed of Best Narrative Award at TGA 2023. I did enjoy the story of Baldur's Gate 3 very much, But I'd say AW2 has the edge of telling a story in such an unconventional way. There's just nothing like it.

So this is what I was getting at in the other thread where we made top 25 lists, and I made one specifically about narrative.
To me "narrative" in video game could mean either an over-arching story OR the consistent ability to tell individual stories.
I don't know exactly what the game awards had in mind with their categories (it sure would have been nice if they'd discussed that).

Niether AW2 nor BG3 appeal to me in terms of gameplay so I'm not making a qualitative judgement or anything, but it seems like the strength of AW2 is the over-arching narrative, while the strength of BG3- and RPGs in general, honestly- is individual stories. This quest, that quest, this character, that side story, maybe this specific part of the main quest, etc. It's why Skyrim and Witcher 3 are two of the most beloved narrative games despite their main stories being kinda lame.
The slight advantage Baldur's Gate 3 has over a AW2, that you don't have to play the prior games of the former two to know what's going on. As with Alan Wake II, you have to know and have played what was going on in the first game, some of the DLC stories, and another game, Control's DLC to get the full picture. Before getting the second game, I played the first game twice, and I just YouTubed Control's DLC.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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The slight advantage Baldur's Gate 3 has over a AW2, that you don't have to play the prior games of the former two to know what's going on. As with Alan Wake II, you have to know and have played what was going on in the first game, some of the DLC stories, and another game, Control's DLC to get the full picture. Before getting the second game, I played the first game twice, and I just YouTubed Control's DLC.
It's funny because whenever a big game sequel comes out I see the questions all over like "do I have to play the previous game(s) first" and always the answer is no because of course no one's gonna make a mass-appeal game that assumes people played some game(s) from years ago.
I guess AW2 is the first exception?
 
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It's funny because whenever a big game sequel comes out I see the questions all over like "do I have to play the previous game(s) first" and always the answer is no because of course no one's gonna make a mass-appeal game that assumes people played some game(s) from years ago.
I guess AW2 is the first exception?
Wasn’t 7th gen all about this kinda stuff though too? Like even on Xbox there was Halo trilogy ala “finish the fight” and the Gears trilogy, then a bunch of PS3 series like God of War capping off the trilogy, three Uncharted’s, and there’s of course Mass Effect which I haven’t played but have heard is all connected because everyone was pissed about how it ended promoting a bloody rewrite.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Wasn’t 7th gen all about this kinda stuff though too? Like even on Xbox there was Halo trilogy ala “finish the fight” and the Gears trilogy, then a bunch of PS3 series like God of War capping off the trilogy, three Uncharted’s, and there’s of course Mass Effect which I haven’t played but have heard is all connected because everyone was pissed about how it ended promoting a bloody rewrite.
Oh maybe.. i kinda skipped that era of gaming. So my brain only goes back to PS3 era, the console where I started gaming again on the reg. And I played AC2 and you didn't need to have played AC1 to get anything 'cause the main playable characters are different. And later games like Skyrim and Witcher 3 which are franchises and sequels and whatnot but it doesn't matter, so that's what I was thinking.
Mass Effect I played on a PC after the it all came out for a while so I just ran through the whole trilogy- but yeah that one for sure wouldn't make sense at this point to not start at the beginning, hence the "Legacy collection" thing that came out.
 

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I guess AW2 is the first exception?
Resident Evil 2 through 6 says hi. And God of War 2 through Ragnarok. And Metal Gear Solid in general. Especially Metal Gear Solid. The first MGS was a sequel to the MSX games. I know you mentioned you took a break from gaming around this point and didn't get back until the late 7th generation era, but I wanted to give you several notes.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Picked up The Talos Principle from the Steam Winter Sale for $5. First person puzzling ain't normally my thing but the praise for the sequel and appeal of smaller games captured my attention. I expect to be able to spend some time with it tomorrow.
 

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Hades has finally overstepped from "okay, I guess there's more to do after the ending" to "what the actual fuck why is this still going".
 
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Hades has finally overstepped from "okay, I guess there's more to do after the ending" to "what the actual fuck why is this still going".
Yeah, I never finished Hades because of that. The writing is good, but there's just not enough content to justify how much plot there is. There's only so many times I can kill the Hydra or Theseus and the Minotaur before I'm just bored of it. They really needed more unique bosses and challenges if they intended to have a narrative that long, either that or just stop drip-feeding the story to me a couple of conversations at a time. It takes 50+ runs of the game to get the full Hades story and that's just too many runs for a game with only like 7 unique boss-fights (I refuse to count the different Hydra iterations as unique boss fights because almost nothing changes about how you approach the fight).

It's a game with 8 hours of content that wants you to play it for 100 hours.
 
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Bartholen

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Finished the main storyline of Cyberpunk 2077. Which was kinda unexpected, I wasn't really getting a matching sense of finality from the mission I was heading in, more of a "we're moving to the finale" kind of vibe. So I wasn't really going into it with the mindset of "let's finish this". I can't help but feel that the finale felt a bit separate from the main game. In most RPGs the final mission is a culmination of everything you've been doing, and usually has ties to significant side quests you've been doing. Here, on my first go anyway, the only such thing seemed to be being able to call Panam for help. Takemura doesn't even show up despite being one of the main catalysts of the story. Adam Smasher was a proper boss fight though, and it's kind of rare to see those in first person games. Overall I got the feeling that the ending I ultimately got wasn't a good one, but considering this game has fairly little permutations in the story to begin with, I'm curious how many differences there can ultimately be.

DON'T. TELL. ME.
 

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Yeah, I never finished Hades because of that. The writing is good, but there's just not enough content to justify how much plot there is. There's only so many times I can kill the Hydra or Theseus and the Minotaur before I'm just bored of it. They really needed more unique bosses and challenges if they intended to have a narrative that long, either that or just stop drip-feeding the story to me a couple of conversations at a time. It takes 50+ runs of the game to get the full Hades story and that's just too many runs for a game with only like 7 unique boss-fights (I refuse to count the different Hydra iterations as unique boss fights because almost nothing changes about how you approach the fight).

It's a game with 8 hours of content that wants you to play it for 100 hours.
They needed proc-gen.
 

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They needed proc-gen.
No that wouldn't have helped. That would have just increased the number of room and enemy combinations, but the big issue with the game was just a lack of bosses. They would have needed to just design way more bosses.

They designed some new systems and mechanics (like fishing) which honestly feel really out of place in the game, when instead they should have used those resources to add more boss variety.
 

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Still plugging away at GoW:Ragnorak. Getting Freya back into the plot for a visit to Vanaheim was pretty cool and she's a great character(and well acted to boot). I was about to get really annoyed by yet another section where I had atreus on his own because he's not a great solo fighter but getting to visit Asgard was pretty awsome. I will say though I really expected something different from Asgard. Like there's that huge fucking wall surrounding it and once you reach the top there's just a town with a hall on the other side. I guess I was expecting some kind of grand castle or something.

I do find it interesting that there seem to a colony of "normal" people in asgard because I was beginning to think everyone in these new games were some kind of supernatural entity(A god, a dwarf, a giant, etc) and even midgard was basically a divine realm, not our "world" per se. So now I'm confused where all these normal types actually live/lived. I do like getting to meet the gods in valhalla and interact with them(Heimdal is a fucking dick and Thor is a jerk but thor is also a storm god who lost his sons so I kind of expect him to be a bit angry and mercurial).

I'm probably gonna mainline the rest of the game because I don't see a ton of reasons to do side quests, when i see to be getting plenty of XP/loot/stuff from just picking up shit along the road. I doubt there's something amazing I need to go side questing for that I need to beat the game(and I never bothered to go kill all the Valkyries in GOT2018)
 

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I'm probably gonna mainline the rest of the game because I don't see a ton of reasons to do side quests, when i see to be getting plenty of XP/loot/stuff from just picking up shit along the road. I doubt there's something amazing I need to go side questing for that I need to beat the game(and I never bothered to go kill all the Valkyries in GOT2018)
There are some side quests that are definitely worth doing. Some of them have specific upgrades locked behind them, but some of them have cool story content. I'm going to list off the side quests I think are definitely worth doing. I won't tell you why or give any spoilers, but all of these add to the plot and characterization, and tend to be pretty major quests. One of them even opens up an entirely new area which you would otherwise skip completely (and this area is worth doing as it has the best drop rate for crafting materials and has a bunch of cool boss fights).

1. The Weight of Chains / In Service of Asgard (Svartalfheim)

2. Freya’s Missing Peace (Vanaheim)

3. Song of the Sands (Alfheim)

4. Scent of Survival / Casualties of War (Vanaheim)

5. The Broken Prison (Nilfheim)

6. Viking Funeral (Svartalfheim)


I completed the game 100% (including killing all the ravens) and did all the side quests and optional boss fights. There are some other side quests that I could also recommend, but the above are the major ones (honestly kind of surprised some of them aren't just part of the main quest). I personally love the optional bosses, and had a ton of fun with the Valkyries in the previous game, but if you're not into that then these are definitely the significant quests to tackle. If you are interested in some of the optional boss fights (significant story relevant ones) then there's another couple of quests I could recommend.

Also, these optional side quests have different dialogue depending on which companion you bring with you.
 
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Still plugging away at GoW:Ragnorak. Getting Freya back into the plot for a visit to Vanaheim was pretty cool and she's a great character(and well acted to boot). I was about to get really annoyed by yet another section where I had atreus on his own because he's not a great solo fighter but getting to visit Asgard was pretty awsome. I will say though I really expected something different from Asgard. Like there's that huge fucking wall surrounding it and once you reach the top there's just a town with a hall on the other side. I guess I was expecting some kind of grand castle or something.

I do find it interesting that there seem to a colony of "normal" people in asgard because I was beginning to think everyone in these new games were some kind of supernatural entity(A god, a dwarf, a giant, etc) and even midgard was basically a divine realm, not our "world" per se. So now I'm confused where all these normal types actually live/lived. I do like getting to meet the gods in valhalla and interact with them(Heimdal is a fucking dick and Thor is a jerk but thor is also a storm god who lost his sons so I kind of expect him to be a bit angry and mercurial).

I'm probably gonna mainline the rest of the game because I don't see a ton of reasons to do side quests, when i see to be getting plenty of XP/loot/stuff from just picking up shit along the road. I doubt there's something amazing I need to go side questing for that I need to beat the game(and I never bothered to go kill all the Valkyries in GOT2018)
Not exactly easy to miss but there’s an epilogue story thread that’s well worth it.
 
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Drathnoxis

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No that wouldn't have helped. That would have just increased the number of room and enemy combinations, but the big issue with the game was just a lack of bosses. They would have needed to just design way more bosses.

They designed some new systems and mechanics (like fishing) which honestly feel really out of place in the game, when instead they should have used those resources to add more boss variety.
Even if they had more boss variety, like 80% of the game was doing the same rooms with the same enemies again and again. A lot of modern roguelikes think they can just randomize rooms and powerups and call it a day, but proc-gen is the thing that gave old-school roguelikes near endless replay-ability.
 
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Even if they had more boss variety, like 80% of the game was doing the same rooms with the same enemies again and again. A lot of modern roguelikes think they can just randomize rooms and powerups and call it a day, but proc-gen is the thing that gave old-school roguelikes near endless replay-ability.
I never got as bored with the rooms as I did with the bosses. Theseus in particular is just such a long fight and it's the same every time. Different god calls really don't change the fight at all.
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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I never got as bored with the rooms as I did with the bosses. Theseus in particular is just such a long fight and it's the same every time. Different god calls really don't change the fight at all.
I have the exact same opinion as you of Hades- great gameplay and art that wore thin and I definitely got tired of repeatedly fighting the bosses especially Theseus = Minotaur.
But this is my problem with rogueli*es in general and the older I get the less interest I have in doing the same shit over and over. Everything else about Hades is so good that I pushed through enough to actually defeat the title character, then stopped. But with other such games, Binding of Isaac etc, I just can't be arsed. Not my thing at all anyway, I don't see the appeal, frankly.
 

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I have the exact same opinion as you of Hades- great gameplay and art that wore thin and I definitely got tired of repeatedly fighting the bosses especially Theseus = Minotaur.
But this is my problem with rogueli*es in general and the older I get the less interest I have in doing the same shit over and over. Everything else about Hades is so good that I pushed through enough to actually defeat the title character, then stopped. But with other such games, Binding of Isaac etc, I just can't be arsed. Not my thing at all anyway, I don't see the appeal, frankly.
I'm actually cool with playing Roguelites overall. I probably have a couple hundred hours in Binding of Isaac and Enter the Gungeon, but both of those have a lot more variety in terms of builds and boss fights.

Hades feels like a Roguelite where they spent more time on the story and dialogue than on the actual gameplay, and that's the biggest problem. It wants you to play it for 100 hours like Binding of Isaac, but it has less than 10% of the content so the gameplay loop gets stale.

Getting 1-2 new conversations per run just is not enough to justify continuing to play the game. The game would have been a lot better (and a lot shorter) if after every run you did every character you had unlocked had a new conversation.
 

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There are some side quests that are definitely worth doing. Some of them have specific upgrades locked behind them, but some of them have cool story content. I'm going to list off the side quests I think are definitely worth doing. I won't tell you why or give any spoilers, but all of these add to the plot and characterization, and tend to be pretty major quests. One of them even opens up an entirely new area which you would otherwise skip completely (and this area is worth doing as it has the best drop rate for crafting materials and has a bunch of cool boss fights).

1. The Weight of Chains / In Service of Asgard (Svartalfheim)

2. Freya’s Missing Peace (Vanaheim)

3. Song of the Sands (Alfheim)

4. Scent of Survival / Casualties of War (Vanaheim)

5. The Broken Prison (Nilfheim)

6. Viking Funeral (Svartalfheim)


I completed the game 100% (including killing all the ravens) and did all the side quests and optional boss fights. There are some other side quests that I could also recommend, but the above are the major ones (honestly kind of surprised some of them aren't just part of the main quest). I personally love the optional bosses, and had a ton of fun with the Valkyries in the previous game, but if you're not into that then these are definitely the significant quests to tackle. If you are interested in some of the optional boss fights (significant story relevant ones) then there's another couple of quests I could recommend.

Also, these optional side quests have different dialogue depending on which companion you bring with you.
I did the Freya one in Vanaheim and I liked it. I'm gonna check out some of the other ones. To be fair, I really like Freya as a character and getting to see more of her was totally worth the investment. I also did the Weight of Chains quest already and that was quite engaging.
 
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