EU election

[crimson5pheonix]

It does indeed speak out against antisemitism. Yet there's a contingent that will minimise, entertain or excuse it (as well as other forms of bigotry) if the perpetrators align on other political questions.

D'you know who Raed Salah is? He's a hate preacher; claims European Jewish people make bread with the blood of Christian children, claimed that Jewish employees of the World Trade Centre were secretly told to stay home, says homosexuality is a "great crime", the full gamut of despicable shithead far-right rhetoric. Corbyn described him as an "important voice", "representing his people very well", and said he was "well deserving" of some tea on his terrace. When this was reported, Corbyn penned a piece in the Morning Star arguing that criticisms were "hysteria".

Or we have Nisar Malik, a candidate for George Galloway's old party, sharing content from David Duke, former 'grand wizard' of the KKK.

In France, there's been a 300% rise in antisemitic incidents in a few months, culminating in the rape of a 12-year-old just the other day. Yet Melenchon argues France experiences nothing but "vestigial" antisemitism. And recall Diane Abbott writing that Jewish people only experience the same level of prejudice as redheads?

This is minimisation & entertainment of antisemitism. I don't believe for a minute that Corbyn, Abbott or Melenchon are antisemitic: they have long careers of combatting racism. But they have a blind spot for the problematic areas of their own wing. They seemingly cannot comprehend that a significant race issue exists that isn't limited to the capitalist right.

(Galloway, who proudly describes himself as "social conservative", I wouldn't be surprised if he was just a bigot-- he's also a homophobe).

You know what that suspiciously looks like? No instances of the left parties engaging in antisemitism. In this specific case we talk about France, and the only example you have of France is a statement that has been cut off to remove very important context.

French PM lashes out at leftist leader Mélenchon after antisemitic assault

Key figures in the French president’s camp criticized three-time presidential candidate Jean-Luc Mélenchon’s stance on antisemitism and the Israel-Gaza war as having contributed to an e…

www.politico.eu

Antisemitism is vestigial and minimal... in pro-Palestinian protests, which is absolutely true. And also completely different from the narrative that's been written about this, which is implying that Melenchon is downplaying antisemitism country wide, which he (and his party) isn't. So good job carrying water for the far right.

 

[Silvanus]

You know what that suspiciously looks like? No instances of the left parties engaging in antisemitism.

You were the one who broadened this to talk about "the left". Don't complain if I engage on the parameters you set. And yes, Corbyn's Labour and Galloway's Respect were parties of the left.

Antisemitism is vestigial and minimal... in pro-Palestinian protests, which is absolutely true. And also completely different from the narrative that's been written about this, which is implying that Melenchon is downplaying antisemitism country wide, which he (and his party) isn't.

To be fair, I'd failed to read the full context there. I relied on an article that stripped it out-- which was foolish.

So good job carrying water for the far right.

When elements of the left adopt the social politics of the far right, that's holding water.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

You were the one who broadened this to talk about "the left". Don't complain if I engage on the parameters you set. And yes, Corbyn's Labour and Galloway's Respect were parties of the left.

What do you mean broadened? Of course we're talking about the left, we have from the start. I asked where left parties engaged in antisemitic activities and received no evidence. Because this started with Macron accusing Melenchon of engagin in antisemitism.

To be fair, I'd failed to read the full context there. I relied on an article that stripped it out-- which was foolish.

Indeed. That's why you can't just bow and scrape at every talk of antisemitism, because most of it is bullshit. I had to search several articles to find one that gave the context, the rest were ready to do exactly what you did and blow it up to mean the whole of France.

 

[Agema]

So good job carrying water for the far right.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I can't very well complain of the clown emote being thrown. I can point out you've done a terrible job of defending your position, making that clown a look in the mirror for you.

 

[Satinavian]

In France, there's been a 300% rise in antisemitic incidents in a few months, culminating in the rape of a 12-year-old just the other day. Yet Melenchon argues France experiences nothing but "vestigial" antisemitism. And recall Diane Abbott writing that Jewish people only experience the same level of prejudice as redheads?

Honestly, i am sceptical in regard to any numbers about antisemitism rise. So many people work all the time to equate Israel-criticism and antisemitism that much of the rise might be just the former. It is a cheap trick to frame the all the protests as evidence of endangered jews and as justification of further Israel support.

I don't disagree about any of the rest though. Not that i am that knowledgable about the various British bigwigs.

 

[Agema]

I can't very well complain of the clown emote being thrown.

You're whining like a toddler at moderates attacking the left, when you and your chums feel no compunctions about attacking the moderates: often, at length and with lots of vitriol... and that equally has the far right laughing all the way to the polls by doing its work for it.

So maybe a little less of the childish "No it's YOUR fault the Nazis won the election", eh?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

You're whining like a toddler at moderates attacking the left, when you and your chums feel no compunctions about attacking the moderates: often, at length and with lots of vitriol... and that equally has the far right laughing all the way to the polls by doing its work for it.

So maybe a little less of the childish "No it's YOUR fault the Nazis won the election", eh?

It would be a lot better to stomach if the center didn't run to the right every single time. The left's complaint is the same every time, the center is just the right that wants to pretend otherwise. Macron has proved it again.

And this argument you're making here is because you can't back up any of your previous arguments. You just want it to be axiomatic that the left is antisemitic, it's better than having to argue on policy.

 

[Silvanus]

What do you mean broadened? Of course we're talking about the left, we have from the start. I asked where left parties engaged in antisemitic activities and received no evidence. Because this started with Macron accusing Melenchon of engagin in antisemitism.

"In this specific instances we talk about France" was what you said to discount the examples of members of two British left-wing parties.

Indeed. That's why you can't just bow and scrape at every talk of antisemitism, because most of it is bullshit. I had to search several articles to find one that gave the context, the rest were ready to do exactly what you did and blow it up to mean the whole of France.

OK. So I made a mistake. Yet its hardly better to reflexively dismiss allegations of the indulgence of racism, is it? Yet that's kind of what I'm seeing here. You addressed one out of four examples, and not the most serious (by far), but you're making it crystal clear you simply don't consider the others concerning.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

"In this specific instances we talk about France" was what you said to discount the examples of members of two British left-wing parties.

Because we are talking about France primarily. For the British examples, I don’t see much. The closest is Calloway, which is definitely eyebrow raising. But way at the start of this with Agema I noted if you go far enough left you reach the tankies and red/browns and that they legitimately are small enough to ignore.

OK. So I made a mistake. Yet its hardly better to reflexively dismiss allegations of the indulgence of racism, is it? Yet that's kind of what I'm seeing here. You addressed one out of four examples, and not the most serious (by far), but you're making it crystal clear you simply don't consider the others concerning.

Because France is the focus of the conversation and it is emblematic of the argument. Not reflexive dismissal, but reflexive skepticism. "The left is antisemitic" is a meme the right uses to support Israel and the center uses to not have to face their own moral failings.

I went and looked for where you could call the left (in France) antisemitic and came up with nothing. You posted some examples, the most relevant being flat out false. The others not examples of antisemitism from the left.

 

[Silvanus]

Because we are talking about France primarily. For the British examples, I don’t see much.

Really? Not the extensive defence of a man who said European Jewish people cooked with children's blood, followed up by an article claiming criticism of the above was 'hysteria'?

Not reflexive dismissal, but reflexive skepticism. "The left is antisemitic" is a meme the right uses to support Israel and the center uses to not have to face their own moral failings.

I didn't say "the left is antisemitic"-- you've simplified and reduced what I did say in order to make it easier to dismiss. Which sort of illustrates the issue-- zero actual concern over what happened, just not wanting it to besmirch the political wing.

I said there was minimisation and excusing of antisemitism among a sector of the left. That is true. Corbyn supporting Salah, Nisar reposting Duke, and Abbott equating the severity of antisemitism with anti-redhead sentiment are all valid examples of that. And yeah, the approach I've seen so far is reflexive dismissal.

I think perhaps the most unedifying aspect of this is that the earliest criticisms of Corbyn on these grounds came from the left before he took the leadership. Before the right-wing press got hold of it and turned it into a circus, and the tourists to British politics became aware of it. Gawd it must be frustrating, to hear the others in the tent asserting that its all a right-wing stitch-up, when they'd been making the case from the left since much earlier.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I didn't say "the left is antisemitic"-- you've simplified and reduced what I did say in order to make it easier to dismiss. Which sort of illustrates the issue-- zero actual concern over what happened, just not wanting it to besmirch the political wing.

I said there was minimisation and excusing of antisemitism among a sector of the left. That is true. Corbyn supporting Salah, Nisar reposting Duke, and Abbott equating the severity of antisemitism with anti-redhead sentiment are all valid examples of that. And yeah, the approach I've seen so far is reflexive dismissal.

Then you've walked into the wrong argument, again. Macron called Melenchon's party antisemitic and people who joined the party antisemitic. I don't care what you have to say about minimalizations. It's a stupid distraction.

 

[Silvanus]

Then you've walked into the wrong argument, again. Macron called Melenchon's party antisemitic and people who joined the party antisemitic. I don't care what you have to say about minimalizations. It's a stupid distraction.

No, fuck that noise. I didn't "walk into the wrong argument". You made a broad statement about "the left" that went a good deal further than France, and I addressed it, not limiting myself to France because you didn't either. You then played down some very goddamn shady instances.

If you don't care when racism is minimalised or excused by figures in leftist parties, or see it as a mere "distraction", that's precisely the problem.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

No, fuck that noise.

 

[tstorm823]

No instances of the left parties engaging in antisemitism.

If you were looking at right wing parties saying literally all the same things, you would find coded dog-whistles of antisemitism, I guarantee it. In this context, I'm probably more forgiving of the left-wing parties accused of antisemitism, as those accusations are largely the same crap levelled regularly at people I would support. The "this guy had lunch with a person who works for this organization who once said something we didn't like" sort of accusation is pretty crappy in general, and is thoroughly politically weaponized.

But there's nothing quite as irritating as a person who can see through the lies and politization only when it suits him, so knock that crap off.

 

[Seanchaidh]

when you and your chums feel no compunctions about attacking the moderates: often, at length and with lots of vitriol... and that equally has the far right laughing all the way to the polls by doing its work for it.

the difference is that the left is correct while the moderates are venal and disingenuous

 

[Satinavian]

Moderates have naturally more coalition options than far left/right wing parties. And they use it to play all the other factions out against each other to get the best deal. That is why the moderate Left is far more often in power than the far Left and the moderate Right more than the far Right.

But that also means that the moderate Left won't chose the far Left over the centrists or the moderate Right every single time - only sometimes. And some on the far left see that as betrayal every time they do. Which is unfortunate.

But looking over Europe and the last decades there are and have been many coalition governments with both social democrats and communists so it is just plain wrong to say that they can't work together or that the moderate left always prefer working with the right over the far left.

 

[Silvanus]

*snipped dismissive response*

Yeah, really effectively combating the perception that sectors of the left don't give a shit about ignoring racism there.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Yeah, really effectively combating the perception that sectors of the left don't give a shit about ignoring racism there.

Oh look, more noise.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Moderates have naturally more coalition options than far left/right wing parties. And they use it to play all the other factions out against each other to get the best deal. That is why the moderate Left is far more often in power than the far Left and the moderate Right more than the far Right.

But that also means that the moderate Left won't chose the far Left over the centrists or the moderate Right every single time - only sometimes. And some on the far left see that as betrayal every time they do. Which is unfortunate.

But looking over Europe and the last decades there are and have been many coalition governments with both social democrats and communists so it is just plain wrong to say that they can't work together or that the moderate left always prefer working with the right over the far left.

I mean sure, we can look at Spain right now or Mexico's recent win, it's why it's good when the center goes left. But it feels very wrong to go to the far right right now when it's being painted (accurately) as being an existential threat.

Really what it gets to with Macron's actions is that we can see his position crumbling, it has been for years as the center can't hold in a crisis and boy howdy, have the last few years been crises. He called this snap election while the right isn't ready to throw them off balance, looks like it's a smart move so far, but where does that leave Macron? From an outside perspective, he's a kingmaker. I seriously doubt his party is going to come out of this election in a stronger position within the government, but he can basically choose who leads the next coalition.

He's spending that opportunity by fighting the left, acting like he's just going to stay Jupiter forever. I think the best he can hope for is barely holding on as he is now and continuing to decay. But he's going to take everyone else with him.