Well, we can always revisit this complete dismissal of racism next time you claim its entirely fabricated-- as you're exhibiting exactly the behaviour you accused others of fabricating, you can serve as your own counterexample.
EU election
- Thread starter Satinavian
- Start date
So what part of the examples given-- Raed Salah supported by Corbyn, Nisar Malik reposting the KKK etc-- are you disputing, exactly? Where's the disingenuousness?
Corbyn is not a fucking antisemite and you know it. I'll just echo crimson5pheonix: It's a stupid distraction.
I explicitly said, multiple times and from the start of this exchange, that he's not. Why not try engaging with what's actually been said?
You know, it's funny, but I actually haven't argued that. We can check the record, #44:
"modern French antisemitism and in particular the vast surge recently overwhelmingly comes from demographic groups that the French hard left draws heavily from. Against which the reaction of the far left's leaders can be suprisingly ambivalent."
I made a very careful distinction there between the French left and people whose votes the French left wants to acquire. After all, in many countries the voters of leftist parties don't hold many values that the party does - for instance, that the left is usually progressive-leaning, and yet is often collecting votes from people who are socially conservative... sometimes very conservative.
The hard left knows this, and they are more than capable of tailoring their message to not alienate chunks of voters with whom they may not be entirely simpatico. This is where I used the term "ambivalent", rather than overtly antisemitic. We know perfectly well that these guys absolutely would not be downplaying, trivialising and wording themselves around some of the attacks and abuse going on were it many other minority groups suffering. But Jews are unpopular in many of the recruiting grounds for leftist parties. So on the one hand, glibly announce "We're against antisemitism" as the headline generality, and then duck and dive and dodge around many specific issues where condemning antisemitism might be electorally disadvantageous.
So my point here is really that if that's what some leftist parties do, I just don't think they deserve to complain that much when the inevitable accusation is flung at them. Not least because this sort of downplaying or turning a blind eye is tantamount to facilitation.
Also...
There is an exact quote from his blog: "l’antisémitisme reste résiduel en France." So yes he does mean antisemitism is not a big deal in France.
One can argue that point on all sorts of levels (for instance, that there are more prevalent and severe forms of racism), but it's at best insensitive during a heavy increase in reported antisemitism. And this goes towards the above: firstly, that there's very likely a grubby ulterior motive going on for why the hard left might downplay antisemitism, and secondly that if the hard left do this, they can also suck up the criticism.
Riiiight. So unless someone is an explicit racist themselves, there's no reason to be concerned with them excusing/endorsing racists?
It's funny-- I remember you pointing at public figures endorsing/excusing extremists, and arguing that it shows how awful and inexcusable they are. I guess it's just a 'distraction' when it's someone you happen to like.
And then did nothing to back that up, only for me to go looking for this supposed surge and finding... nothing. And then you never provided any counter example anywhere, and just made it sound axiomatically true. In other words, copying the far right's homework.
And trying to figleaf away "oh I'm not saying they're antisemitic" is a giant exercise in
Completely divorced of the context of the blog, leftist protests against Israel. It's a giant document about how the left is painted with the antisemitism brush for protesting and how anybody who looks at videos of any of these protests have trouble finding antisemitism.
That there's a lot of antisemitism in "the left" shouldn't be controversial, there's lots of it everywhere. The same can be said about prejudice on any group, really. Being leftwing doesn't magically make one immune to that.
Now, you can argue, perhaps, that there's less of that on the left than amongst the right or centrists, but that's not the same thing at all.
Now, you can argue, perhaps, that there's less of that on the left than amongst the right or centrists, but that's not the same thing at all.
You seem like the kind of person who, if tasked with landing a jumbo jet after the pilot became incapacitated, would mostly be concerned with carpal tunnel syndrome.
Oh, you found nothing? Not even, for instance, the comments of the French Interior Ministry?
You waded in here making claims whilst effectively admitting that you didn't know much about what's going on in France, and now you're claiming vindication on the grounds you couldn't find easily available information. It's not encouraging.
Irrespective of the wider context of the blog, the statement is unambiguously claiming antisemitism is trivial in France.
We might note antisemitism was serious enough for the hard left to join a March against antisemitism back in 2019. Although Melenchon also marched in solidarity with the gilets jaunes movement, despite many of its members expressing plenty of what he would later call that "vestigial" antisemitism. That's all very politically expedient. Le Pen skipped the 2019 antisemitism march. Roll round to 2023 and circumstances have changed: Le Pen marches against antisemitism and Melenchon does not. Because of course there's been a realignment where Le Pen sees the march against antisemitism as an opportunity to align with Islamophobia for voter support, and Melenchon (whatever the feeble excuse of refusing to go on a march that RN would also attend) sees a march against antisemitism as problematic when he wants to marshal pro-Palestinian voters behind him.
They all know what they're doing. You should stop thinking that the hard left lacks its own cynical operators perfectly capable of making their own grubby, moral compromises. They aren't fairy tale heroes.
I don't have the feeling that antisemitism ( explicitly excluding the Palestine debate) is relevant to any major party in Europe. So politicians speak out against it whenever they think they can score some cheap points and ignore it when they suspect enough potential voters won't like such a gesture. Oh, and of course they gladly take a shot at a political enemy whenever they can frame one in this way.
In some way that is sad, but antisemitism is just not a vote winner. It is not relevant in most voters life.
In some way that is sad, but antisemitism is just not a vote winner. It is not relevant in most voters life.
The left guy didn't attend a march against something when that something is very obviously being cynically used to defend a state from accountability for genocide. How is this even on your radar?
Pretty much, yes.
However, overall I don't think Israel / Palestine debate is a big thing for most parties and voters either. In France, for instance, the big underlying issue is domestic friction between Muslims and some non-Muslims, thus also immigration, etc. Israel / Palestine is more important to them as a proxy for this domestic tension than it is important in and of itself. Similar forces work in the UK: the Conservatives are increasingly weaponising Islamophobia, and trying to portray Labour as favouring foreignness at the expense of Britain's traditional values.
I suspect Israel / Palestine is also not attractive to address for many European politicians because none of the countries can do much about it. Israel does what it pleases because the USA gives it all the tools and international diplomatic cover it needs. As long as the USA is willing to back Israel to the hilt - and you can bet the USA is also leaning on European countries to toe the line - the Palestinians are stuffed. Thus for European politicians, it's not attractive to pour their media appeals into a topic modest numbers care about and they couldn't deliver significant outcomes on one way or the other. Unless, as above, there are useful ulterior motives.
I did explicitly point out the generic rise in reported antisemitism, but also noted that groups that report a generic rise in antisemitism count protesting Israel as antisemitism, so it's not particularly interesting. You said that it was the left wing's base that was committing antisemitic acts and did so with no proof, and I couldn't find any real instances of it.
Until you put it back in context and it suddenly isn't. I know you like to carve up people's posts to eliminate context, but I'm not letting this go. You shoved your foot in your mouth.
Man, you really hate context don't you? Yeah, anitsemitism still exists and the left tends to fight it. In 2019 a march would probably be what it says it was. After October 7 such a march would be cynically and unabashadly a pro-genocide march, of course the left wouldn't join such a march. Both are being ideologically consistent, not just cynical vote pandering. Again, unless you're on the rhetorical track that the left hates jews because they're all Islamo-leftists. Now that is cynical vote pandering.
You surely understand the problem with disputing government statistics on the basis that some Jewish groups count criticising Israel as antisemitic. The French government, after all, is not a Jewish group.
No, I said antisemitism mostly comes from demographic groups the hard left relies on for support. This distinction might be subtle, but it's also important. Thus you've manufactured a straw man.
The context of that post is that there is a large attack on Netanyahu and his policies, moving into discussion of opposition to Netanyahu's policies having widespread support in all sectors of French society (and Israeli and American, including Jewish communities themselves), and then we get to the direct statement that antisemitism is vestigial in France. That he is referring to France as a whole is therefore entirely consistent with the preceding context. The sentence immediately following then goes on to say as a separate statement that antisemitism has also been absent in rallies.
Thus it really is you that misrepresented that quotation, even by the context.
The implication of you admitting that the left tends to fight antisemitism is you admitting sometimes it doesn't fight antisemitism. You're then getting mad at me and others for pointing out occasions when it doesn't fight antisemitism coinciding with occasions when not fighting antisemitism is politically advantageous for the left. And then for some reason you don't think anyone should be allowed to question or criticise the left for that.
The context does not alter the literal and unambiguous meaning of that sentence. That's absurd.
Honestly, more fool me for earlier taking your word for it that he didn't say it.
The interior ministry has also specifically talked about instances of severe hate crime: desecration of cemeteries and places of worship, targeted destruction of property, assault.
You can find it uninteresting (or reflexively assume its fake). Fine. But you and I both know that if the same ministry reported the same increase for any other group, you wouldn't be here insisting it's all just overblown "noise". And you and I also both know that if Marine le Pen or Macron had said racism against X was merely residual in France, no amount of stretched context would exonerate them from rightful condemnation.
well, does it or doesn't it? because there is no metaphysical rule that confines that proclivity to Jewish groups.
What's absurd? What is that?
The French government has been cracking down on pro-Palestinian protests, so the animating factor is still in play.
It must be very very subtle, because you've just defined "voting base" at me to say it's different.
No, the entire paper is about protest against Israel. Cherry picking a quote to pull out of context is just poor argument.
Yes, and it's because of precisely what you did here, cut out the context.
Wow, it's almost like the left is being ideologically consistent in a way the center isn't! That this isn't motivated by cynical vote gathering! It's almost like you're full of shit and not trustworthy on this topic!