US supreme court rules Trump has ‘absolute immunity’ for official acts

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,949
2,980
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
To be clear, Chevron deference had nothing to do with the relationship between the departments and the president, and very little even to do with the relationships between the departments and congress, and was almost entirely the relationship between the departments and the courts. When Congress passes vague laws, the enforcement agencies have space to interpret how to enforce the law. This is still the case. Chevron deference was a standard that said in a situation like that, if someone takes the government to court over said enforcement claiming it violates the law as written, the courts would defer to the departments themselves to tell them what the law is. Getting rid of that means that the courts will have to do their jobs and interpret the laws that Congress passed, not defer to the unelected bureaucrats that are being sued to decide the legality of their own actions.

The enforcement agencies were already beneath the president's authority, taking power from them also takes power from the president. Gutting Chevron weakens the Presidency.
Why would you use the term unelected beuracrats when the Supreme Court are unelected beuracrat? Seems weird

The office of the president can use the courts to force the agencies to do exactly as the president says. The 'failings' of the Trump presidency has mostly been placed on 'agencies not doing as they were told' and taking things to court to defy the executive. This is meant to stop that

Eg. The DOJ SHOULD be an independent body that falls under the executive. If a president makes an EO that clearly breaks the constitution, they could go to court to make it not valid. Now they can't. And now they gain the extra benefit of turning independent, impartial bodies into partial entities

What you are talking about is true. It's just not all of it. Because that part you are describing is just the benefits to those funding this decision. Eg. Uber, Facebook, Google, Telsa, petrol companies, Coke, Pepsi, Purdue etc. They want unfettered deregulation so they can do what they want. Congress won't do anything because they are paid not too. They aren't here to represent the people. That's not taking into account that Congresspeople don't have a science background so any bills that get through are solely about identity politics rather than actually fulfilling on policies

It's like Reagan ripping of the solar panels off the White House. He was just an indentitarian who was paid to do it and it was never about the economy or what was best for America
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,035
964
118
Country
USA
I don't know if you noticed, the Supreme Court regularly changes what the constitution means

You have literally complained about the Warren court doing the same thing. So please don't.
The Supreme Court has done interpretations of the constitution that I disagree with in that they read things that aren't clearly there. That is a different thing in kind than contradicting the Constitution. That is the check and balance to the Supreme Court, that they can't do anything flatly contradictory to the constitution, and if Congress wants something outside their authority, they can amend it to the Constitution.
Why would you use the term unelected beuracrats when the Supreme Court are unelected beuracrat? Seems weird
That's not what the term bureaucrat means.
The office of the president can use the courts to force the agencies to do exactly as the president says. The 'failings' of the Trump presidency has mostly been placed on 'agencies not doing as they were told' and taking things to court to defy the executive. This is meant to stop that
I do not blame you for not understanding how a foreign government works, but you really ought to not talk so much about things you don't know anything about. The president does not use the courts to force agencies to do anything. The president has direct authority over them, the courts aren't involved.

The courts have the power to overturn actions of the executive branch that were illegal. Chevron deference weakened the courts' ability to do so. It did not allow the departments to challenge the presidency, rather it allowed them largely free to ignore most challenges from outside the executive branch.
If a president makes an EO that clearly breaks the constitution, they could go to court to make it not valid. Now they can't.
The court still has the same amount of power to invalidate unconstitutional orders, anyone with standing can still bring such a case to the courts, Chevron deference has absolutely nothing to do with that. You genuinely just have no idea what you're talking about.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,790
6,149
118
Country
United Kingdom
You're gonna have to be more specific. What did he tell the AG to do outside of his specified role?
Not the AG. When I said he did "exactly that", it was in reference to your sentence, "The president does not have the authority to command those beneath him to do things outside their roles."

According to the indictment, Trump instructed state officials and legislators to commit fraud, instructed state officials to advance false slates of electors, and instructed Pence and others to delay certification. These are all instructing those beneath him to do things outside of their roles. Your own interpretation would mean these actions aren't covered by Presidential immunity, but six supreme court justices apparently disagree.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,514
818
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Really? "Both side are the same"? You claim both side avoid the "really important stuff like healthcare reform", remember when one party push hard for healthcare reform and the other went absolute batshit insane and promise they'd do anything to stop it, going so far as refuse free money to help cover more patient?

Also, have you been living under a rock the pass couple of year? Abortion just massively changed, gay marriage was legalize not long ago, and politician wouldn't have to waste time if the same party wasn't constantly trying to block the other everytime it tried to improve life. Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean its not changing.
Do you not get that you need conflict for something to be an issue? The democrats are the face and the republicans the heel. Neither party actually wanted public healthcare, you think the major donors to both these parties wanted that? Hence, the republicans play the heel and push back on that and then the democrats can play the Scooby Doo defense "if it wasn't for those meddling republicans". Same thing with gay marriage, you actually think republicans cared about it that much? Gay people are still gonna live together and everything regardless of whether gay marriage became legal, trying to stop them from getting married was just denying them a piece of paper (and some tax breaks), it wasn't changing anything culturally. Abortion isn't new (it recently changed), but both parties have been running on abortion for decades. It's just a distraction so the important shit doesn't enter into public debate. For example, how wasn't America's healthcare situation far and away the #1 issue by a long shot in the 2020 election? We literally had a pandemic (that very election year) where millions upon millions of people got laid off and because they got laid off, they lost their healthcare in the middle of a pandemic, and yet still not the number one issue.

Yeah. That's not what the Supreme Court said

Eg. If Biden somehow was still alive, he could go for a third term. He has immunity and you cannot prove that he broke any constitutional amendment because you cannot use any evidence from his time in office

If any impedes presidential power, the Supreme Court staged that it needs to be stopped
That's not what the Supreme Court said... They are basically saying to use the impeachment process for criminal prosecutions vs a normal criminal prosecution.

He said he declared them not classified and his during his time in office. You cannot impede presidential power

Edit: He took them while he was still president. Thus their existence in his hotel cannot be used as evidence in court
That's not how that works.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,790
6,149
118
Country
United Kingdom
Abortion isn't new (it recently changed), but both parties have been running on abortion for decades. It's just a distraction so the important shit doesn't enter into public debate.
"Something doesn't impact me personally much so it's unimportant".
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,175
1,614
118
Country
The Netherlands
Its fortunate for Trump and the project 2025 guys that there's one place where the constitution doesn't mean squat.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,035
964
118
Country
USA
According to the indictment, Trump instructed state officials and legislators to commit fraud, instructed state officials to advance false slates of electors, and instructed Pence and others to delay certification. These are all instructing those beneath him to do things outside of their roles. Your own interpretation would mean these actions aren't covered by Presidential immunity, but six supreme court justices apparently disagree.
What makes you think they disagree?
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,790
6,149
118
Country
United Kingdom
It's unimportant compared to much bigger issues that are never in the public forum.
Wealth disparity, climate change, etc are frequently in the public forum. And although Dem leadership almost never want to talk about them, the Republican leadership never want to talk about them at all.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,790
6,149
118
Country
United Kingdom
What makes you think they disagree?
Well, their spectacularly late-term intervention in the case (delaying any trial and conviction until after the election), and their broad statements on "presumptive" immunity.
 

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,694
1,285
118
Country
United States
...That is a different thing in kind than contradicting the Constitution. That is the check and balance to the Supreme Court, that they can't do anything flatly contradictory to the constitution...The courts have the power to overturn actions of the executive branch that were illegal.
That's not the check on the Supreme Court, my dude. The check on the Supreme Court is it has neither the power of the sword nor the purse. There is no Supreme Court Army, and it can't allocate or control the spending of federal funding.

The closest thing to is the Supreme Court Police, which is a security force independent of the executive (for the purposes of maintaining separation of powers) but has in exchange a jurisdiction limited exclusively to security over the Supreme Court Building and individual Justices. It's the same deal as the US Capitol Police being nominally part of the legislative branch.

This is why I keep saying the Supreme Court has no capacity to enforce its own rulings.

Chevron deference weakened the courts' ability to do so. It did not allow the departments to challenge the presidency, rather it allowed them largely free to ignore most challenges from outside the executive branch.
Oh, for chrissakes.

Reagan stacked the EPA with fossil fuel toadies, and Neil Gorsuch's mom figured out a loophole in the Clean Air Act that allowed coal companies to do basically whatever they wanted. The NRDC sued over this, and the Court basically said "whatever, dude" and shat upon the country a ruling contradictory to its own ratio. John Paul Stevens even wrote in his opinion the EPA acted against clear legislative intent, its bubble interpretation was outside delegated Congressional authority, and lower courts had found correctly...but then proceeded to dispose the case in favor of the EPA.

That's what you're ignoring in this. What was before the Court in Chevron wasn't really about the EPA's bubble interpretation, Congressional intent behind the CAA, or vested public interest in air quality and pollution. It was about executive appointments. Because Reagan's corrupt-ass, criminal, for-profit administration stacked the EPA with fossil fuel toadies who proceeded to interpret the regulations they were charged with enforcing, in the worst-faith way possible so as to provide maximum benefit to private industries they really represented.

That's something about which the judiciary can do nothing. Not within the boundaries of a given individual case, or any case for that matter, because executive appointments aren't under judicial oversight. That's why Republicans loved this ruling...until Obama came around and weaponized Chevron deference against the people it was intended to serve (fossil fuels and finance). Or rather, made an impotent attempt at weaponizing it against fossil fuels and finance, to simply appear as if he'd done something.

Procedurally, all Chevron did was treat executive agencies as presumptive subject matter experts, which shifted burden of proof to the challenger. Strictly speaking, the Administrative Procedure Act itself is the root cause of the problem, as it delegates enumerated Congressional authority to the judiciary.

The court still has the same amount of power to invalidate unconstitutional orders...
They have the power to write strongly-worded letters loaded with fancy language. The president and Congress have the power to ignore those letters, but they generally don't to maintain the honor system.

"John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."
- Andrew Jackson, in response to that time the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Cherokee tribe
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,514
818
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Wealth disparity, climate change, etc are frequently in the public forum. And although Dem leadership almost never want to talk about them, the Republican leadership never want to talk about them at all.
What side is worse then, the side that claims to be for doing such things and then not doing them or the side that is not for doing such things and then doesn't do such things? What does it actually matter which side you vote for?

Those issues come up from time-to-time but they are never the main issues. If one cares about climate change, why would they vote for either party when neither are for nuclear power? The fact that healthcare wasn't the main issue during an election that took place during a pandemic says it all.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,790
6,149
118
Country
United Kingdom
What side is worse then, the side that claims to be for doing such things and then not doing them or the side that is not for doing such things and then doesn't do such things? What does it actually matter which side you vote for?
Well, the characterisation you've given there isn't really accurate. You have one side that claims to be for addressing wealth disparity and climate change, and makes deeply insufficient moves to address them-- but is nonetheless subject to some pressures from the left to address them, and can occasionally be mobilised to do so. Then you have the other side that is rabidly hostile to addressing them, and makes every effort to exacerbate them. So that makes two highly undesirable options, but nonetheless a pretty broad difference.
 

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,694
1,285
118
Country
United States
Well, the characterisation you've given there isn't really accurate.
Neither is yours.

You have one side that claims to be for addressing wealth disparity and climate change, and makes deeply insufficient moves to address them...
If only this were the case. The reality is that side makes the claims you state, but stops at nothing to blockade their own stated positions in backrooms, committee and subcommittee meetings, regulatory offices, and courtrooms. But, that's not far enough. They then go onto publicly defame critics and internal opposition, rig nominating processes, blacklist progressive legislators, manipulate agendas, amend and poison-pill legislation into death-on-arrival or meaninglessness, and should the "worst" come to pass, cross party lines to caucus with the opposition.

No different from Republican politicians prior to the tea party.

...but is nonetheless subject to some pressures from the left to address them, and can occasionally be mobilised to do so...
They're under zero pressure from the left to do a thing because they know the left can be pressured to strategically vote for them regardless, and they know aesthetics-obsessed partisan simps will happily engage in ego-stroking peer pressure.

No different from Republican politicians prior to the tea party.

...Then you have the other side that is rabidly hostile to addressing them, and makes every effort to exacerbate them...
Here's how and why I keep bringing up the tea party. Republican voters got sick of two-faced, greedy, gaslighting hypocrites who spent their terms in office blockading their own campaign promises. Republican voters subsequently forced their representatives to either put their money where their mouth was, or get primaried.

Did that result in mass elections of the biggest, most loudmouthed, ignorant and hateful assholes this country has seen since the Gilded Age? well, yeah. But those assholes did the one thing Republican politicians wouldn't: what they said they'd do in office. Up to and including Trump, himself.

Democratic politicians weren't victims of this transition, they were beneficiaries of it.

...So that makes two highly undesirable options, but nonetheless a pretty broad difference.
There's zero difference because policy outcomes are the same.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,790
6,149
118
Country
United Kingdom
Neither is yours.

[...]

There's zero difference because policy outcomes are the same.
Well, no, they're manifestly not. Conservationist groups and climate researchers are pretty unanimous that one is a precipitously greater threat to the environment than the other, and frankly the notion that there's an equivalence there is an absolute joke.

The line that they're the same on climate change stuff finds pretty much zero support in conservationist and climatologist commentary. It comes almost exclusively from dismissive, low-content abstentionists; tankies who don't give a shit about the environment and will happily shill for petro-despots at the same time; and those who simply aren't paying attention to detail.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Thaluikhain

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,949
2,980
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
That's not what the Supreme Court said... They are basically saying to use the impeachment process for criminal prosecutions vs a normal criminal prosecution.
Because Impeachments have done something?
And no

That's not how that works.
Unless the Supreme Court pulls back on this decision (possible with this sort of decision), that's exactly how it works
 

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,694
1,285
118
Country
United States
Well, no, they're manifestly not. Conservationist groups and climate researchers are pretty unanimous that one is a precipitously greater threat to the environment than the other, and frankly the notion that there's an equivalence there is an absolute joke.
Congrats, you cherry picked a single policy issue on which the distinction is having the existential climate crisis maybe a decade sooner than later, but with fuck-all to hedge against the economic and political crises guaranteed to result from the damage already done. In the meantime, he's still jacking fossil fuels to the tits with new drilling permits, doing fuck-all to halt deforestation, increasing clean energy device import tariffs, and directing the USDA to rebrand and subsidize practices that increase agricultural greenhouse gas (most notably methane) production as "climate-smart".

But hey, his admin gave domestic automobile manufacturers a blank check to increase hybrid and EV sticker prices by $7,500 across the board, in the middle of a national transportation affordability crisis almost certainly linked to aforementioned protectionism. That's gotta be worth something, right?

One would think Biden's admin isn't actually doing anything about climate change, but rather just using it as an excuse to load up donors' pork barrels just as he did during his four decades in the Senate. Yet here you are, defending the backtrack of the backtrack, of the backtrack you originally defended four years ago despite knowing then the policy proposals (that didn't even survive the DNC) would be woefully insufficient.

How about any other policy issue?
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,035
964
118
Country
USA
Well, their spectacularly late-term intervention in the case (delaying any trial and conviction until after the election), and their broad statements on "presumptive" immunity.
So, conspiracy theories and scare quotes, got it.
Yada yada yada history...

Procedurally, all Chevron did was treat executive agencies as presumptive subject matter experts, which shifted burden of proof to the challenger.

...Yada yada yada history.
I don't think anything you're saying here is meaningful disagreement with my explanation, but if you want to have the last word, I kindly request you scroll up to Trunkage in post #121 in this thread and start untangling whatever that is.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,514
818
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Well, the characterisation you've given there isn't really accurate. You have one side that claims to be for addressing wealth disparity and climate change, and makes deeply insufficient moves to address them-- but is nonetheless subject to some pressures from the left to address them, and can occasionally be mobilised to do so. Then you have the other side that is rabidly hostile to addressing them, and makes every effort to exacerbate them. So that makes two highly undesirable options, but nonetheless a pretty broad difference.
Most of the stuff the left does to address those issues ends up making things worse. And most of what Eacaraxe said.


Because Impeachments have done something?
And no

Unless the Supreme Court pulls back on this decision (possible with this sort of decision), that's exactly how it works
Impeachments can do something. Just because IIRC any impeachment in the last 30 years was pointless bullshit doesn't mean impeachments don't do anything. Also, even Nixon got off scot free and that was before this presidential immunity BS that you guys are bitching about. What the hell is the difference anyway?

That's not how that works because a civilian having confidential documents is illegal. It doesn't matter if it was done as president because possession is something in the present and Trump was also not presently president at the time. You're also acting like these documents are constantly mishandled by other presidents and politicians. Get Trump on something actually fucking serious; I don't care about him having documents like everyone else, I don't care about hush money to a porn star, etc. Nor would I care if Biden or Obama did similar things. If Trump's the doing all these really horrible illegal things, get him on one of those things. All this stuff ends up being something I'm not gonna believe until there's an actual conviction because the left lied so fucking hardcore about the Trump-Russia bullshit that had no evidence so I'm not gonna believe anything else until you show me the actual wolf this time.