The Defending Joe Biden Mega-Thread

Phoenixmgs

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Just so we are clear, 15 to 26 million people went to those BLM protests. At most 80k went to Jan 6. BLM went for over 6mths

All those rioting you are talking about is across thousands of cities over 200 days and you are combining them into one package like it happened in one spot on one night

And, as I said, the first day was the worst. Once the initial shock of a government agent killing someone in cold blood wore off, it became far more peaceful. But it's still 20 million people and someone is going to do something wrong with that many people

We are still talking about violence not being okay. Your whole country started with riots and violence and a war and blood. Are you against the revolutionary war? Because, if you are not then you KNOW some violence is justified
I would say the percentage of people participating in violence in the BLM riots was more than Jan 6th. Did people just break into businesses and loot during the revolutionary war?


You say can't like it's illegal. And that illegal is something the president can't do.

This is false

Edit: I should reword the word sentence. If Trump uses the military in a domestic situation, I have no doubt that you will justify it. You might not call it legal but you will justify it
I wouldn't unless it's the few exceptions for using the military for domestic issues that have been used before.

The president is functionally immune to the Posse Comitatus Act in all cases because of this decision.

Like, this is precisely the kind of thing that this decision covers - it's doing a thing, that is explicitly a crime, that the president only has the authority to even try to do while acting within a function explicitly given to him by the Constitution and therefore is absolutely immune while doing it.
No, it's not, unofficial actions are not immune.
 

tstorm823

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Cool. So just call whatever you want "investigation of election fraud", including-- as Trump did-- stuff that's clearly not actually that, and it becomes immune!
You understand that the only people who get to determine what counts as what here are federal judges, whose decisions can be challenged. For the president to pull a fast one like you are suggesting, they'd need basically the whole federal court system to agree.

Trump doesn't decide what is immune in any capacity.
 

dreng3

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You understand that the only people who get to determine what counts as what here are federal judges, whose decisions can be challenged. For the president to pull a fast one like you are suggesting, they'd need basically the whole federal court system to agree.

Trump doesn't decide what is immune in any capacity.
Actually they'd just need five supreme court justices, but of course such a seizure of the judiciary would never take place, and, even if it did, the honorable justices would never sink so low as to let partisan bias sway them.
 

Schadrach

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No, it's not, unofficial actions are not immune.
Then nothing is immune, except things that are already legal and thus have nothing to be immune from.

The entire structure being given is that if something is a core duty, and you do something that is a crime while performing that core duty, then POTUS is absolutely immune as regards that crime and it also cannot be considered as evidence.

Since commanding the military is about the most core a duty can be (being explicitly assigned to POTUS by the Constitution and all), and it is possible to command the military in a fashion that is a crime, then POTUS is absolutely immune as regards commanding the military in a criminal fashion.

This is about the most overt and obvious the issue with this ruling can be. If doing a crime when performing an official duty makes it cease to be an official duty then the decision protects literally nothing because it does literally nothing and protects Trump from literally nothing. If doing a crime when performing an official duty (let alone an absolutely immune core duty) does not make it cease to be an official duty, then any crime related to an official duty is totally irrelevant as regards POTUS, barring only impeachment.

I'm still looking forward to the arguments in the future about whether or not you can impeach a former president long after they've left office (and/or impeach the same former president multiple times over different issues, even if a previous impeachment is convicted), as a requirement to make the actions impeached over no longer "official" (since only things wholly unconnected to any presidential power would be able to be prosecuted otherwise, and then only after an initial round in court to argue that point). And whether or not double jeopardy applies to impeachments (meaning you could intentionally pass articles of impeachment with a friendly Senate that you know won't convict to confer permanent immunity).
 

Silvanus

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You understand that the only people who get to determine what counts as what here are federal judges, whose decisions can be challenged. For the president to pull a fast one like you are suggesting, they'd need basically the whole federal court system to agree.

Trump doesn't decide what is immune in any capacity.
Yes. Federal judges, who in America are political appointees, some of them appointed by the defendant. It continues to beggar belief that Americans are happy to overlook that colossal conflict of interest.

Anyway: they don't necessarily need to make an explicit decision. They can do just what they have done: decide to consider it, at some significantly later date, pushing the trial to a point where it may become impossible to prosecute because he's back in office.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Then nothing is immune, except things that are already legal and thus have nothing to be immune from.

The entire structure being given is that if something is a core duty, and you do something that is a crime while performing that core duty, then POTUS is absolutely immune as regards that crime and it also cannot be considered as evidence.

Since commanding the military is about the most core a duty can be (being explicitly assigned to POTUS by the Constitution and all), and it is possible to command the military in a fashion that is a crime, then POTUS is absolutely immune as regards commanding the military in a criminal fashion.

This is about the most overt and obvious the issue with this ruling can be. If doing a crime when performing an official duty makes it cease to be an official duty then the decision protects literally nothing because it does literally nothing and protects Trump from literally nothing. If doing a crime when performing an official duty (let alone an absolutely immune core duty) does not make it cease to be an official duty, then any crime related to an official duty is totally irrelevant as regards POTUS, barring only impeachment.

I'm still looking forward to the arguments in the future about whether or not you can impeach a former president long after they've left office (and/or impeach the same former president multiple times over different issues, even if a previous impeachment is convicted), as a requirement to make the actions impeached over no longer "official" (since only things wholly unconnected to any presidential power would be able to be prosecuted otherwise, and then only after an initial round in court to argue that point). And whether or not double jeopardy applies to impeachments (meaning you could intentionally pass articles of impeachment with a friendly Senate that you know won't convict to confer permanent immunity).
You can still easily argue that commanding the military to do something that is illegal isn't a core function. Also, nothing really changed in how you go after a president, you still have to impeach them. Even Nixon wasn't arrested and he was caught as red handed as one could be.
 

Trunkage

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I would say the percentage of people participating in violence in the BLM riots was more than Jan 6th. Did people just break into businesses and loot during the revolutionary war?
They literally threw tea into a harbour. The whole thing started because smuggling was rampant

And no. absolutely not. 1% of 25 million is 250k cases. Show me 250, 000 people looting. Show me 100, 000 people looting. 14, 000 have been charged. That's less then 0.1%

You can go back to the back of the napkin math I dd on Jan 6. It was a low digit percentage but not under one
 

tstorm823

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Actually they'd just need five supreme court justices, but of course such a seizure of the judiciary would never take place, and, even if it did, the honorable justices would never sink so low as to let partisan bias sway them.
Yes. Federal judges, who in America are political appointees, some of them appointed by the defendant. It continues to beggar belief that Americans are happy to overlook that colossal conflict of interest.

Anyway: they don't necessarily need to make an explicit decision. They can do just what they have done: decide to consider it, at some significantly later date, pushing the trial to a point where it may become impossible to prosecute because he's back in office.
If the President does something and has the approval of the courts up to the Supreme Court, and enough support in the Legislative branch to dodge removal from office, and support of the cabinet to avoid 25th amendment issues, and enough support from the American public that none of these previously mentioned are swayed by public outcry, then the entire nation can conspire to allow the president off the hook for something that could have otherwise been thrown in jail for, sure. No one prosecutor is going to overcome all of that, no matter how legally justified. I don't think that spells the end of democracy.
 

Summerstorm

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Also President Putin of Ukraine...

I mean: Once: Ok, maybe even funny. Names might be important if you are representing...

 

Silvanus

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If the President does something and has the approval of the courts up to the Supreme Court, and enough support in the Legislative branch to dodge removal from office, and support of the cabinet to avoid 25th amendment issues, and enough support from the American public that none of these previously mentioned are swayed by public outcry, then the entire nation can conspire to allow the president off the hook for something that could have otherwise been thrown in jail for, sure.
"Approval of the courts up to the Supreme Court": Not required; just a few select justices in the right places, and he personally can appoint who he wants. The highest possible judicial authority has already been rigged.

"Enough support in the legislative branch to avoid removal": So, just 33 out of 100 Senators, in a two-party country. Piss easy for almost any American President.

"Support of the cabinet": His own appointees, chosen for personal loyalty.

So, he actually just needs assistance from... about a dozen people he himself has appointed, as well as a meagre minority of (party political) representatives in one of the two legislative houses.
 

tstorm823

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So, he actually just needs assistance from... about a dozen people he himself has appointed, as well as a meagre minority of (party political) representatives in one of the two legislative houses.
As always, lets imagine the scenario backwards. Imagine Republicans were trying to take Biden to court over actions in office, and the Supreme Court gave back this exact ruling verbatim. Do you panic, or do you defend the Court?
 

Silvanus

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As always, lets imagine the scenario backwards. Imagine Republicans were trying to take Biden to court over actions in office, and the Supreme Court gave back this exact ruling verbatim. Do you panic, or do you defend the Court?
The ruling itself would be just as dangerously permissive regardless of what prompted it. It's cute that you continue to ascribe any/all criticism to partisanship, but I've personally condemned various shit Biden has done, and also condemned judicial rulings that benefitted Democrats.

There would be a little less immediate concern in that scenario, though, because I'm assuming Biden's actions in office aren't the same as Trump's effort to overturn the election. Crimes in pursuit of an overthrow of democratic rule are somewhat more concerning for the country than bog-standard crimes in office.
 

tstorm823

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It's cute that you continue to ascribe any/all criticism to partisanship, but I've personally condemned various shit Biden has done, and also condemned judicial rulings that benefitted Democrats.
It's cute that you think you've done these things.
 

Phoenixmgs

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They literally threw tea into a harbour. The whole thing started because smuggling was rampant

And no. absolutely not. 1% of 25 million is 250k cases. Show me 250, 000 people looting. Show me 100, 000 people looting. 14, 000 have been charged. That's less then 0.1%

You can go back to the back of the napkin math I dd on Jan 6. It was a low digit percentage but not under one
You think the cops were actually going after everyone that was looting? I don't even live in a big city or anything and there was concrete dividers blocking the mall entrances, national guard at Walmart, and snow plows blocking exits/entrances on the expressway (I had to go around one to get home one day). You think that was being done because only 14,000 people in the country were looting? Even people that did absolutely nothing on Jan 6th were arrested and jailed by the FBI.
 

Silvanus

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You think the cops were actually going after everyone that was looting?
You have literally just been arguing that the absence of official charges is evidence that crime didn't happen.