My company is now purposefully breaking federal labor law (attached email)

Phoenixmgs

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Given that they're already pretty set on firing you I would say the best thing for you to do is continue pushing the issue so that they fire you sooner rather than later. The email already shows that they're planning on paying you, but the sooner that they fire you after that email the more relevant the content in that email is to your firing. If they fire you a year from now it's a lot less clear that they are looking for an excuse to fire you than if you get fired a month from now.



Good, then it's probably best for you to follow the attorney's advice once you meet with them rather than some dudes on a random forum.
It's not about them paying me for the OT I was arguing about (that they said they would in the email). My claim would be them not paying time and a half (and just normal hourly wage) for all my past OT on my past paychecks. I don't want them to fix that yet so I have a personal claim to make to the DoL. I can use the excuse of feeling threatened if I'm asked by the DoL why I haven't emailed about the time and a half thing.

I actually would've loved of they did fire me Tuesday because, yeah, the closer to the email, the more obvious. The HR lady did send an email apologising for not knowing that it was on-call time but that doesn't fix/change what was said in the email either.
 

Phoenixmgs

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So I finally got through with the Indiana DoL and initiated a claim. The lady I got this time didn't seem to care if I personally had a claim (and was missing out on money) though she asked and I said I do because of them not paying time and a half for OT. I was basically able to open it for all the techs as I said they hire people on salary and force them to be exempt while having them work 8.5 hours every day. That's pretty much how I thought it would work, but the lady I got on Monday said otherwise. But whatever, it's done and they will have someone see if it merits an investigation or not.
 
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Silvanus

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I didn't do anything any other person couldn't do.
Ok, so the request/subsequent challenge is something anyone with a similar contract could do.

Now consider: you know the employer is happy to penalise people for following that procedure. Meaning those who pursue those avenues are at risk. And the only reason you know this is sheer accident.

Do you think everyone else would also be financially and socially unimpacted by being unfairly dismissed?

((Also, please please please edit the post and redact the identifying information better, I'm serious)).
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Ok, so the request/subsequent challenge is something anyone with a similar contract could do.

Now consider: you know the employer is happy to penalise people for following that procedure. Meaning those who pursue those avenues are at risk. And the only reason you know this is sheer accident.

Do you think everyone else would also be financially and socially unimpacted by being unfairly dismissed?

((Also, please please please edit the post and redact the identifying information better, I'm serious)).
The employer also needs workers to fulfill their contact with the client. My company has a contract to a hospital system to provide IT techs. If all the employees do this, how can my company fire everyone and not massively piss off the client? The employee also has leverage and the employer also has risk too, it's not a one way street.

Also, if you get unfairly dismissed because you complained about breaking the law, it's wrongful termination plus unemployment benefits as well. Even without the email I have, I don't think a wrongful termination lawsuit will be too difficult. Before this, I sent a pretty long email to HR that went step-by-step citing how my position isn't exempt with several sources (including the DoL letter that says that) and they never responded to that. That would be pretty good proof right there. And if you initiated a claim with the DoL, that's documented too.
 

Silvanus

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The employer also needs workers to fulfill their contact with the client. My company has a contract to a hospital system to provide IT techs. If all the employees do this, how can my company fire everyone and not massively piss off the client? The employee also has leverage and the employer also has risk too, it's not a one way street.
How often do you think all employees at a company have chosen to simultaneously challenge their pay?

And how often do you think companies have penalised individual employees they consider difficult?
 
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Elvis Starburst

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How often do you think all employees at a company have chosen to simultaneously challenge their pay?

And how often do you think companies have penalised employees they consider difficult?
Not often and very often respectively.

Also, if you get unfairly dismissed because you complained about breaking the law, it's wrongful termination plus unemployment benefits as well. Even without the email I have, I don't think a wrongful termination lawsuit will be too difficult.
I don't think you realize just how much effort is put into making an employee's dismissal seem legitimate when in the background it's not. Being dismissed for seemingly minor things (like coming in 5 minutes late maybe once or twice), "layoffs" of staff, cutting an employee's hours back until they can no longer sustain being there...
Here's a few examples I went through myself.

I can distinctly remember back when I was younger (early 20's) and I did a stupid thing that I think got my employer in trouble with another business. It was totally my fault, I did something without management's approval that I didn't think would be a problem. They had a meeting with me later that week and told me I shouldn't have done what I did, but that was where it was left. They didn't fire me for that. Oh so conveniently not even 2 months later I was laid off because they said they didn't need as many employees. I was the only employee laid off.
I thought little of it at first, but looking back... I highly doubt I was laid off merely because of a lack of employee need. Not when it was timed so closely with what I did. I don't have proof of it, I'm only basing it off of a convenient time frame. By the time I realized the lay-off was potentially suspect it was way, way too late to file a complaint and I'll never know.

At one of my next jobs I was doing a 4-5 week build of a new business, working with a crew of a few dozen to put up all the shelves following papers with guidelines on how they're supposed to be arranged. I was struggling big time, much of it because of my learning disability difficulties. I wasn't aware it'd be so much of a problem until I got the job. I let my supervisor and manager know of my challenges to a higher degree than I did initially and asked that we try to work together to ensure that I may be as good of an employee for them as I could be. They said they'd do their best and would follow up with me.
Come early the next week I was pulled into a meeting and was told that I was being laid off. They told me that things weren't working out and that I was no longer needed. I specifically remember them saying laid off, not fired. I took that at face value and left. It was only until I looked back years later and realized it was absolutely a firing and should've been said as such, but considering they never heard from me again, they knew I wouldn't know better and just went on with their lives like I did with mine.

Lastly... this time I got smart.
I was at another job after the previous, maybe 6 months down the line, and once again I was laid off, seemingly for little reason. I thought back at the moment of and realized maybe I was getting on the nerves of my boss and some employees, but that was simply because I still had some growing up to do. I got the job done on schedule regardless and without much difficulty. So I asked my boss... "Am I being fired, or am I being laid off?" He told me I was being laid off due to staff cutbacks. ... I was the second person there that did the job I did, so cutting me out meant pulling other people away from their jobs to fill the gap for the whole week. That would be a VERY stupid idea.
I had then asked him if I was to be compensated for the short layoff period since he was laying me off right then and there without 1-2 weeks notice. He said no, I was not eligible for compensation. Considering the last 2 times this happened, internally I called bullshit. I left and the next day I called my local government's employment sector to get advice. I explained the exact situation as it was said to me down to the word, and they told me "He absolutely should have given you 1-2 weeks notice, and since he's not, you should be paid for the equivalent hours you would have worked based on your regular schedule."
The next day I walked in and told him I called the provincial government and said I was to be compensated for that time he had me scheduled before laying me off. He didn't argue, he didn't question it, he didn't skip a beat before saying "Ok, I'll have your pay here in the office in 2 weeks." I went back 2 weeks later and got my check.
He absolutely knew I was supposed to be paid that, but he told me no to my face and expected me to believe it. I have no doubt he would have investigated on his part to determine if that was true to make sure he wasn't giving me money he was to supposed be keeping if he wasn't aware of what he was doing. The fact he didn't even hesitate before agreeing with what I told him was telling.
In hindsight I could've and should've pursued further action. But again, I was young, I didn't know how far all of that extended, and I just wanted to get a new job since I couldn't afford a lawyer. But that was the first time I was aware of my employee's rights and made use of them. Ever since then I have made sure to be much more keenly aware of my rights.

These are 3 of the most obvious examples of what looked like wrongful dismissal I can think of. I am willing to bet there were more that were masked a little better than these. But this is what happens sometimes. This is why this isn't so clear cut. Not everyone is aware of their rights, and employers can and will exploit that fact for their own benefit, whether it's right to their face, or in ways that look legitimate and hard to question
 
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Phoenixmgs

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How often do you think all employees at a company have chosen to simultaneously challenge their pay?

And how often do you think companies have penalised individual employees they consider difficult?
You don't have to have literally everyone do it at the same time. In the contract with the client, my company needs to staff X amount of techs across all the facilities. If you just have like 10% of employees challenging this, they aren't gonna be able to fire everyone complaining. I haven't been penalized a lick outside of the threatening email.

I don't think you realize just how much effort is put into making an employee's dismissal seem legitimate when in the background it's not. Being dismissed for seemingly minor things (like coming in 5 minutes late maybe once or twice), "layoffs" of staff, cutting an employee's hours back until they can no longer sustain being there...
Here's a few examples I went through myself.

I can distinctly remember back when I was younger (early 20's) and I did a stupid thing that I think got my employer in trouble with another business. It was totally my fault, I did something without management's approval that I didn't think would be a problem. They had a meeting with me later that week and told me I shouldn't have done what I did, but that was where it was left. They didn't fire me for that. Oh so conveniently not even 2 months later I was laid off because they said they didn't need as many employees. I was the only employee laid off.
I thought little of it at first, but looking back... I highly doubt I was laid off merely because of a lack of employee need. Not when it was timed so closely with what I did. I don't have proof of it, I'm only basing it off of a convenient time frame. By the time I realized the lay-off was potentially suspect it was way, way too late to file a complaint and I'll never know.

At one of my next jobs I was doing a 4-5 week build of a new business, working with a crew of a few dozen to put up all the shelves following papers with guidelines on how they're supposed to be arranged. I was struggling big time, much of it because of my learning disability difficulties. I wasn't aware it'd be so much of a problem until I got the job. I let my supervisor and manager know of my challenges to a higher degree than I did initially and asked that we try to work together to ensure that I may be as good of an employee for them as I could be. They said they'd do their best and would follow up with me.
Come early the next week I was pulled into a meeting and was told that I was being laid off. They told me that things weren't working out and that I was no longer needed. I specifically remember them saying laid off, not fired. I took that at face value and left. It was only until I looked back years later and realized it was absolutely a firing and should've been said as such, but considering they never heard from me again, they knew I wouldn't know better and just went on with their lives like I did with mine.

Lastly... this time I got smart.
I was at another job after the previous, maybe 6 months down the line, and once again I was laid off, seemingly for little reason. I thought back at the moment of and realized maybe I was getting on the nerves of my boss and some employees, but that was simply because I still had some growing up to do. I got the job done on schedule regardless and without much difficulty. So I asked my boss... "Am I being fired, or am I being laid off?" He told me I was being laid off due to staff cutbacks. ... I was the second person there that did the job I did, so cutting me out meant pulling other people away from their jobs to fill the gap for the whole week. That would be a VERY stupid idea.
I had then asked him if I was to be compensated for the short layoff period since he was laying me off right then and there without 1-2 weeks notice. He said no, I was not eligible for compensation. Considering the last 2 times this happened, internally I called bullshit. I left and the next day I called my local government's employment sector to get advice. I explained the exact situation as it was said to me down to the word, and they told me "He absolutely should have given you 1-2 weeks notice, and since he's not, you should be paid for the equivalent hours you would have worked based on your regular schedule."
The next day I walked in and told him I called the provincial government and said I was to be compensated for that time he had me scheduled before laying me off. He didn't argue, he didn't question it, he didn't skip a beat before saying "Ok, I'll have your pay here in the office in 2 weeks." I went back 2 weeks later and got my check.
He absolutely knew I was supposed to be paid that, but he told me no to my face and expected me to believe it. I have no doubt he would have investigated on his part to determine if that was true to make sure he wasn't giving me money he was to supposed be keeping if he wasn't aware of what he was doing. The fact he didn't even hesitate before agreeing with what I told him was telling.
In hindsight I could've and should've pursued further action. But again, I was young, I didn't know how far all of that extended, and I just wanted to get a new job since I couldn't afford a lawyer. But that was the first time I was aware of my employee's rights and made use of them. Ever since then I have made sure to be much more keenly aware of my rights.

These are 3 of the most obvious examples of what looked like wrongful dismissal I can think of. I am willing to bet there were more that were masked a little better than these. But this is what happens sometimes. This is why this isn't so clear cut. Not everyone is aware of their rights, and employers can and will exploit that fact for their own benefit, whether it's right to their face, or in ways that look legitimate and hard to question
I'm not sure the rules in your country but for me, I'm under at-will employment so I can get fired at literally any time for any reason (that's not illegal). The company laying you off seems like they are trying to be nice about it. At least in the US, getting laid off means you can get unemployment benefits for sure, I'm not sure if that matters for you. It seems like the 1st time was your fault as you even said as well. I don't know why they'd have a perfectly good reason to let you go but then say it was a lay off (unless, like I said, they are trying to be nice about it). I'm not sure exactly how disabilities work even in the US because on one hand if you can't do the job because of a disability, then why should the company be forced to keep you on. I totally understand if it's a job you can do competently with said disability (or take longer to learn), you should be protected. You didn't really explain all the way if you were just taking longer to learn the job or it would be something that would always be an issue doing the job. With the last bit, you gotta read everything and know your rights. My company gave me a pay raise that was actually a pay decrease and also switched me from hourly to salary (they tried to sneak that in without me realizing it) and I didn't sign it until they literally forced me to.
 

Elvis Starburst

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I'm not sure the rules in your country but for me, I'm under at-will employment so I can get fired at literally any time for any reason (that's not illegal). The company laying you off seems like they are trying to be nice about it. At least in the US, getting laid off means you can get unemployment benefits for sure, I'm not sure if that matters for you. It seems like the 1st time was your fault as you even said as well. I don't know why they'd have a perfectly good reason to let you go but then say it was a lay off (unless, like I said, they are trying to be nice about it).
That's the thing though. They can't say one thing and mean the other because of how that affects benefits given. If they wanted to fire me they should've said so.

I'm not sure exactly how disabilities work even in the US because on one hand if you can't do the job because of a disability, then why should the company be forced to keep you on. I totally understand if it's a job you can do competently with said disability (or take longer to learn), you should be protected. You didn't really explain all the way if you were just taking longer to learn the job or it would be something that would always be an issue doing the job.
Ah, yeah, I had to go back and edit this a couple of times to fix some errors and I missed a few details in the end still.
Disability is protected, you can't fire someone because they're disabled. I was capable of doing the job, it did just take me longer to learn. I get that it may have been more trouble than it's worth, but again, they clearly wanted to fire me but didn't, they used wording that skirted around my disability being the problem. And given the circumstances of my trouble with the job and what I had to talk to them about, it was clear in hindsight that that was the issue and they avoided mentioning it.

With the last bit, you gotta read everything and know your rights.
You're right, you do. But it wasn't until a few dismissals with likely suspect reasoning for me to realize I even had such rights and knew what to look for. It's one thing to say that workers have these rights and should use them, but it's another to make note that they may not even realize they have such things available to them to begin with. I never had to think about it until many jobs down the line, and by then it was too late to do anything about my past experiences. That is part of the reason why workers don't make use of them like you say they should in past replies in this thread
 

Phoenixmgs

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That's the thing though. They can't say one thing and mean the other because of how that affects benefits given. If they wanted to fire me they should've said so.



Ah, yeah, I had to go back and edit this a couple of times to fix some errors and I missed a few details in the end still.
Disability is protected, you can't fire someone because they're disabled. I was capable of doing the job, it did just take me longer to learn. I get that it may have been more trouble than it's worth, but again, they clearly wanted to fire me but didn't, they used wording that skirted around my disability being the problem. And given the circumstances of my trouble with the job and what I had to talk to them about, it was clear in hindsight that that was the issue and they avoided mentioning it.



You're right, you do. But it wasn't until a few dismissals with likely suspect reasoning for me to realize I even had such rights and knew what to look for. It's one thing to say that workers have these rights and should use them, but it's another to make note that they may not even realize they have such things available to them to begin with. I never had to think about it until many jobs down the line, and by then it was too late to do anything about my past experiences. That is part of the reason why workers don't make use of them like you say they should in past replies in this thread
I mean, that is probably technically fraud in a sense, but it is essentially harmless. At least in the US, you are entitled to unemployment for being laid off and even if you're fired you can apply and then it's on the company to challenge that claim. I feel like the company laying you off instead of firing is just letting you know that you're safe to get unemployment without any worry of you not getting it. Plus, I'm sure laid off looks better on the resume than getting fired as well.

Yeah, the disability firing is BS definitely then.

The second I started hearing how everything worked with this new company, I was like this seems like it could be illegal and that seems like that's definitely illegal so I went and looked up everything because how underhanded it all seemed (and indeed was).
 

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At least in the US, you are entitled to unemployment for being laid off and even if you're fired you can apply and then it's on the company to challenge that claim. I feel like the company laying you off instead of firing is just letting you know that you're safe to get unemployment without any worry of you not getting it.
It's been so long since I've been in that sort of position I'd have to double check... but I do know it all varies on whether or not they give you notice before cutting you from the company. It's no bueno if they let you go without letting you do the last of your scheduled shifts, they'd have to pay you out for them. I know many places I used to work at didn't do that.

Plus, I'm sure laid off looks better on the resume than getting fired as well.
I guess so, yeah
 
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Silvanus

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You don't have to have literally everyone do it at the same time. In the contract with the client, my company needs to staff X amount of techs across all the facilities. If you just have like 10% of employees challenging this, they aren't gonna be able to fire everyone complaining. I haven't been penalized a lick outside of the threatening email.
The level of denial is staggering. Fine, whatever, continue to lick the boot kicking you.
 

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The level of denial is staggering. Fine, whatever, continue to lick the boot kicking you.
I have no clue what you're even talking about. I'm made a claim with the DoL, talked with a lawyer, and am looking for another job. But I guess, in your world, that's licking the boot that's kicking me... And I got at least one other employee to make a DoL claim along with passing around the info to probably at least half the techs in the company in my hospital system.
 

Silvanus

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I have no clue what you're even talking about. I'm made a claim with the DoL, talked with a lawyer, and am looking for another job. But I guess, in your world, that's licking the boot that's kicking me... And I got at least one other employee to make a DoL claim along with passing around the info to probably at least half the techs in the company in my hospital system.
I suppose it's more like avoiding a single kick and then arguing that kicking you is perfectly reasonable to do because you have the chance to dodge it.
 

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I literally don't have any idea what you're talking about.
I think what they're getting at is that as you're in currently in a position where the company was priming to find reasons to fire you and replace you with someone else, and yet you're still speaking about a situation of "well they can't fire all of us or they'll be in some real trouble!" with seemly a lack of awareness that it doesn't matter and you should probably worry more about the proverbial boot kicking you instead
 

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I think what they're getting at is that as you're in currently in a position where the company was priming to find reasons to fire you and replace you with someone else, and yet you're still speaking about a situation of "well they can't fire all of us or they'll be in some real trouble!" with seemly a lack of awareness that it doesn't matter and you should probably worry more about the proverbial boot kicking you instead
Well, I want to get fired. They currently can't keep enough people on staff and can't afford to fire competent techs and if just a few people stood up, they definitely couldn't fire anyone for that. You guys act like employees have no leverage.
 

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They currently can't keep enough people on staff and can't afford to fire competent techs and if just a few people stood up, they definitely couldn't fire anyone for that. You guys act like employees have no leverage.
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