Funny Events of the "Woke" world

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,201
6,476
118
Even moreso since it's a lawsuit in French court against an American and a Brit. It's going to be hard enough to actually give the suit any teeth at all.
Just to be clear given the term "lawsuit" has been mentioned as this usually implies some sort of civil action. What I believe has more accurately occurred is that a criminal complaint has been lodged with the French police, who are now investigating.

Either way, enforcement of any penalties is certainly an issue. In the case of a custodial sentence it may mean any affected parties would be unable to travel to any country France could extradite them from, and in the case of financial penalties France could attempt to seize assets within its jurisdiction. This could involve significant inconvenience, and either way, being badged a criminal by any country in good standing is not a good look.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Satinavian

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 20, 2010
2,166
419
88
Country
US
This could involve significant inconvenience, and either way, being badged a criminal by any country in good standing is not a good look.
Given the number of "countries in good standing" and the variety among their respective laws (plus the US having an entire layer of 50 sets of state laws below that) the only thing preventing most people from being badged a criminal by a country of good standing is notoriety. Or to put it another way, you've almost certainly done something that's illegal in some other country and you're just not infamous enough for anyone to call it out.
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,916
864
118
Country
United States

I hope they at least recycle them. But that degree isn't worth the paper it was printed on. Based on the marketability of said degree.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,201
6,476
118
I hope they at least recycle them. But that degree isn't worth the paper it was printed on. Based on the marketability of said degree.
That is the sort of shit people say who don't understand what degrees do and mean.

Firstly, degrees are not just tools, or if you like "means", they are also ends. A product that you might want for the sake of wanting it, not because it serves any other purpose. Human understanding of value goes beyond money and utility. What ultimately justifies the existence of a degree program is that people are willing to do it.

Secondly, any degree is worth something. The professional world is full of people doing worthwhile jobs that they don't the ideal degree for. Degrees are in large part general indicators that you should be able to work reasonably hard, have a certain baseline intelligence, and various skills and aptitudes. What precise subject your degree is in often does not matter much to many employers.

* * *

Basically, that centre has been assaulted not on any economic argument - whether it provides opportunities for those who do it or whether there is enough interest to bring in funds to run it. It's been trashed just because it offends the ideology of the current Florida government.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,145
968
118
Country
USA
Secondly, any degree is worth something. The professional world is full of people doing worthwhile jobs that they don't the ideal degree for. Degrees are in large part general indicators that you should be able to work reasonably hard, have a certain baseline intelligence, and various skills and aptitudes. What precise subject your degree is in often does not matter much to many employers.
The "reasonably", "certain baseline", and "various" are rapidly diminishing. People can earn degrees while lacking intelligence, aptitude, and work ethic by virtue of showing up. That is the thing that a degree measures most, your willingness to show up at the right times. There are degrees that take more than that, but it is the singular unifying requirement. And I won't say that isn't itself a work skill, but I would suggest that a populace trained to believe that showing up and putting in your time is sufficient to attain prosperity make a society that is doomed to fail. It is only a matter of time before non-rigorous degrees become actively toxic to employment opportunity, if they aren't already, as the person who doesn't show up is actually economically preferable to the person who always shows up and contributes nothing of value, as the former at least can just be fired.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gergar12

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,916
864
118
Country
United States
That is the sort of shit people say who don't understand what degrees do and mean.

Firstly, degrees are not just tools, or if you like "means", they are also ends. A product that you might want for the sake of wanting it, not because it serves any other purpose. Human understanding of value goes beyond money and utility. What ultimately justifies the existence of a degree program is that people are willing to do it.

Secondly, any degree is worth something. The professional world is full of people doing worthwhile jobs that they don't the ideal degree for. Degrees are in large part general indicators that you should be able to work reasonably hard, have a certain baseline intelligence, and various skills and aptitudes. What precise subject your degree is in often does not matter much to many employers.

* * *

Basically, that centre has been assaulted not on any economic argument - whether it provides opportunities for those who do it or whether there is enough interest to bring in funds to run it. It's been trashed just because it offends the ideology of the current Florida government.
Yeah, if you are rich, well-connected, and or lucky, maybe, but for most people, you will have a higher chance of being underemployed in a position unrelated to your degree if you get a gender studies degree. U-6 unemployment is a thing too.


There is already high underemployment for fresh graduates in fields in demand, like engineering, having a gender studies major in a college I have never even heard of is downright predatory. I don't know what country you are from, but in the US, we don't have universal healthcare, even getting SSI disability payments or unemployment is hard enough, and it's even harder in red/republican states. We don't have rent-controlled apartments, or free housing like in Sweden. The longer you don't get a good-paying job, the worse your outcomes will be in all domains of your life, unless you are already rich.

For example, I used to want to do aerospace engineering but couldn't do calculus at a fast enough level because of ADHD. and the Boeing plants were in Seattle. Then I wanted other forms of engineering, so I couldn't do that, Then I wanted to do finance because it's marketable, but I couldn't pass the business statistics class because I had untreated ADHD, so I did political science with a focus on international relations, realized I would never get a job, and double majored with a BA in economics. Even though that has an underemployment rate of 34.9%, if I could do calculus, and was not neurodivergent, you bet your ass I wouldn't do IR or Econ, but that was the highest I could hit with my condition.

Some people could do calculus or organic chemistry have some college departments who are straight-up lying to them and getting them into debt. Again, it happens, I have seen it happen with too many immigrants from said Hispanic American communities who brought in another idea that all you needed was a college degree when in reality you need connections, and skills, maybe signaling that you aren't a bum who won't show up late.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,201
6,476
118
The "reasonably", "certain baseline", and "various" are rapidly diminishing. People can earn degrees while lacking intelligence, aptitude, and work ethic by virtue of showing up. That is the thing that a degree measures most, your willingness to show up at the right times. There are degrees that take more than that, but it is the singular unifying requirement. And I won't say that isn't itself a work skill, but I would suggest that a populace trained to believe that showing up and putting in your time is sufficient to attain prosperity make a society that is doomed to fail. It is only a matter of time before non-rigorous degrees become actively toxic to employment opportunity, if they aren't already, as the person who doesn't show up is actually economically preferable to the person who always shows up and contributes nothing of value, as the former at least can just be fired.
Firstly, you are right: showing up is a valuable work behaviour, and thus worth something to be demonstrated.

Secondly, whilst I accept some degrees have problems, I would note that degrees at accredited universities in most if not all Western countries have extensive quality assurance processes to ensure students don't just twiddle their thumbs for a few years and walk out with a (good) qualification. Bearing in mind I work in higher education, so have signficantly more insight into this than the average person. I suspect that a lot of the talk about "non-rigorous" degrees often represents forms of prejudice, particularly regarding certain subjects, more than it does an evidence-based analysis of those degrees' quality. I think genuinely inadequate students can pass degrees, but these are more the exception than the rule.

Degrees do not guarantee a good worker - but neither do past work histories, references, job interviews and the like. All are forms of evidence that someone has had certain experiences, skills and aptitudes that make it likely that they can do the job.

As a final note, I would add that mediocrity is the norm. This is true also of people who pass degrees, except that we can expect an average graduate mediocrity still has certain skills and aptitudes higher than an average sub-graduate mediocrity.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,201
6,476
118
There is already high underemployment for fresh graduates in fields in demand, like engineering, having a gender studies major in a college I have never even heard of is downright predatory.
If people want to do degrees in gender studies, as long as those degrees hold to appropriate academic standards, that's up to those students. Their choice, and their responsibility to check out that the degree is appropriate to give them what they want, including job opportunities. Bearing in mind, as above, that students are free to do degrees for reasons other than job opportunities.
 

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,928
801
118
If people want to do degrees in gender studies, as long as those degrees hold to appropriate academic standards, that's up to those students. Their choice, and their responsibility to check out that the degree is appropriate to give them what they want, including job opportunities. Bearing in mind, as above, that students are free to do degrees for reasons other than job opportunities.
While i agree that any degree from a proper university has value, there still are problems

- degree mills do exist. And they have an easier time with degrees with less commonly agreed implied abilities. This obviously devalues proper degrees of similar kind.
- the US currently has issues with an oversupply of academics for the job market. Many of them only find untrained work.
- degrees in the US are stupidly expensive to get. More and more don't pay for themselves even in the long run.

In combination that does look bad for gender studies. Sure, a degree in gender studies is worth something. But is it worth enough to invest years and go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt when in the end every other job applicant for anything you want to do also has a degree and half of them one that is a better match for the job ?

In the foreseeable future the demand for college degrees will drop because college education already has stopped being the road for a good future. As soon as that happens, some colleges will close, others will shrink. And the degrees that are less marketable will get cut first.

In a way that has already begun. In recent month several art focused US colleges had to close for good.

-----------------

But the current example is totally about Floridan politics, not about economic viability of the course.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Gergar12

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,201
6,476
118
- degree mills do exist.
Degree mills are not accredited universities.

I think we need to be very careful about the difference between a degree that is non-rigorous (i.e. does not train people to appropriate degree standards) and a degree that provides modest value for money in terms of job prospects. They are not the same thing.

I certainly am very concerned about this implication that degree courses should be canned because someone thinks its graduates don't earn enough. Our job here is not to be the thought police. Our responsibility is to let people know what the employment opportunities are to help them make an informed choice, not tell them they can't do a degree because the Education Minister as Big Brother doesn't like the course. Context may also be advised for many degrees. Maybe in official statistics fine arts students have relatively poor employment after their degree because plenty of them are artists and are working on their art, maybe supporting it with a low-level / part-time job. Who are we to tell them they can't try to advance by learning their craft university, to give up their dreams and get a "proper job"?

- the US currently has issues with an oversupply of academics for the job market. Many of them only find untrained work.
I think we need to be careful before we use words like "untrained". You might mean doing jobs that don't require degree-level education, but that's not the same as untrained. And even if overqualification, a degree may be advantageous for both employee and their employer in some of those jobs. You also need to bear in mind that people with degrees are less likely to be un- or under-employed compared to people below degree level: so whilst that degree might not be needed to do that job, without it an individual might even worse off.

A country could be well advised to produce more graduates than it requires, because otherwise there will be labour shortages for new or expanding industries reliant on graduates. Alternatively, it can of course use immigration, but that isn't always without its complications. One might argue however that a country producing much too many graduates for the graduate jobs available is going to cause unhappiness. A recently study in the UK suggested about 20% of graduates thought they may as well have not done a degree in terms of their career. However, interestingly, a majority of those 20% were still glad they did a degree, even if it was just for the University experience. All in all, that's pretty much okay.

One can reasonably argue that society should reduce the number doing full degrees - that whilst "necessary" compared to lower qualifications they are also excessive for certain jobs, and that alternative shorter, cheaper (and more vocational?) courses would better such jobs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silvanus

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,928
801
118
I think we need to be very careful about the difference between a degree that is non-rigorous (i.e. does not train people to appropriate degree standards) and a degree that provides modest value for money in terms of job prospects. They are not the same thing.
I agree. It is just that the existence of degree mills hurts the perception of proper degrees and thus their value in society. Most people don't know which universities are properly accredited as the name "university" is not protected in the US.

I certainly am very concerned about this implication that degree courses should be canned because someone thinks its graduates don't earn enough. Our job here is not to be the thought police. Our responsibility is to let people know what the employment opportunities are to help them make an informed choice, not tell them they can't do a degree because the Education Minister as Big Brother doesn't like the course. Context may also be advised for many degrees. Maybe in official statistics fine arts students have relatively poor employment after their degree because plenty of them are artists and are working on their art, maybe supporting it with a low-level / part-time job. Who are we to tell them they can't try to advance by learning their craft university, to give up their dreams and get a "proper job"?
I don't advocate for jobs being canned because someone thinks graduates don't earn enough.

However if graduates have no reasonable perspective to ever pay back their student loans, we have a problem. And as said, recently several art colleges in the US had to close. Because they seemingly could not find enough people willing to pay for the courses.

If the students don't come because the course is too expensive for what it brings, there is little that can be done besides canning it.
https://news.wttw.com/2024/07/02/af...demy-art-college-close-has-been-heartbreaking
The closing of art colleges (mentioned here Chicago in June, Philadelphia in May, 8 not specified campuses in 2023) is because they ran out of students and money. Not because or an Education minister. (OK, some of the 2023 closures also seem to have had accreditation troubles).

Oh, seems Philadelphia has lost two, not one art colleges this year.
https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/university-of-the-arts-closing-accreditation-pafa/


I think we need to be careful before we use words like "untrained". You might mean doing jobs that don't require degree-level education, but that's not the same as untrained.
No, i actually mean untrained. I recently come to a study that a US academics that can't find a job that requires their degree have a habit of not giving up and doing short time gigs in fastfood restaurants, drivers, warehouse workers and so on while continuing to search for a position worthy of their degree instead of committing for the long term to a job that need proper training but not a degree. There seems to be some stigma with giving up on actually using the degree.

All very US specific.

A country could be well advised to produce more graduates than it requires, because otherwise there will be labor shortages for new or expanding industries reliant on graduates.
Currently the US has a surplus of academics and a surplus of unskilled workers but a shortage of skilled nonacademic workers. But there is no significant trend of jobless academics to take jobs for skilled workers, at least not until many years later. Because of status and sunk cost. To actually admit that you took on debt that will cripple you for the rest of your life for something you can't properly use is too much. So they stay in a precarious situation hoping to eventually find the right opening while year after year the competition only grows.

And young people are starting to notice. And to consider whether college is really worth it.


Other countries have other situations.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Gergar12

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 20, 2010
2,166
419
88
Country
US
Native Americans were mostly killed by disease
Disease brought over by Europeans. Turns out that being from a region of the world that has dense, filthy urban areas and lots of international trade means an immune system that's broadly ready to throw down against whatever and being carriers of several kinds of such. Which is bad news for the natives if you visit a relativity isolated area like the Americas were.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,201
6,476
118
Native Americans and their outcomes are policy issues, Native Americans were mostly killed by disease, not the winchestor repeater.
Well, okay.

But I can't help but feel all the additional mass murder, stealing their land and pushing them into ever more worthless bits of territory, and destroying much of their culture are still pretty massive issues.

Why is it that whenever a Democrat mentions US history I get depressed, and whenever a Republican mentions US history, I feel proud to be an American?
Because the Republicans tend to nationalism, and one of the ideas of nationalism is a con-job to delude people into thinking they're awesome by association with their country being awesome. So even if you're a fat, lazy, incompetent prick who beats his wife, you can pretend you're something special because 80 years ago some other Americans killed a load of Germans and Japanese, or that 250 years ago a bunch of middle/upper class other Americans sat down and wrote a Constitution.

The Democrats are aiming more at people who are motivated more by care and compassion. Therefore they have much less inclination to slap themselves on the back because their forebears (in some cases in the sense of citizenhood rather than biological) killed a load of foreigners or built a bigger tower, and more inclination to show how much they empathise, sympathise, and respect others. And for many of them, as long as people talk a good enough game, that'll save them the need to actually do something useful to improve other people's lives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Satinavian

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,577
825
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Disease brought over by Europeans. Turns out that being from a region of the world that has dense, filthy urban areas and lots of international trade means an immune system that's broadly ready to throw down against whatever and being carriers of several kinds of such. Which is bad news for the natives if you visit a relativity isolated area like the Americas were.
I don't think people really knew how disease was spread back then, just exploring isn't inherently bad. It's not like the Native Americans were some human ideal either; they conquer each other, they burned forests for farmland, they herded buffalo off cliffs, they had slaves, etc. Native Americans are just people like anyone else back then or now. Maybe the Native Americans were better people than Europeans or maybe they weren't but regardless it's not like Europeans were evil devils and Native Americans were enlightened humans living in harmony with nature. Fact is whatever more technologically advanced people that came to the Americas would have basically done the same thing and conquered the land.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Gergar12

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,574
3,098
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Disease brought over by Europeans. Turns out that being from a region of the world that has dense, filthy urban areas and lots of international trade means an immune system that's broadly ready to throw down against whatever and being carriers of several kinds of such. Which is bad news for the natives if you visit a relativity isolated area like the Americas were.
The Europeans brought some diseases to America, and then brought some American diseases back to Europe. That's kind of just what happens when people from different regions intermingled prior to vaccines. Native Americans got small pox out of the deal and Europeans got syphilis.
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,916
864
118
Country
United States
Well, okay.

But I can't help but feel all the additional mass murder, stealing their land and pushing them into ever more worthless bits of territory, and destroying much of their culture are still pretty massive issues.



Because the Republicans tend to nationalism, and one of the ideas of nationalism is a con-job to delude people into thinking they're awesome by association with their country being awesome. So even if you're a fat, lazy, incompetent prick who beats his wife, you can pretend you're something special because 80 years ago some other Americans killed a load of Germans and Japanese, or that 250 years ago a bunch of middle/upper class other Americans sat down and wrote a Constitution.

The Democrats are aiming more at people who are motivated more by care and compassion. Therefore they have much less inclination to slap themselves on the back because their forebears (in some cases in the sense of citizenhood rather than biological) killed a load of foreigners or built a bigger tower, and more inclination to show how much they empathise, sympathise, and respect others. And for many of them, as long as people talk a good enough game, that'll save them the need to actually do something useful to improve other people's lives.
In-group cohesion is a good thing. And the US, despite having many natural resources, can only care so much thanks to opportunity costs. One smart person studying international relations, for example, going to help the UN, or USAID, is someone who can't study something else and can't join SpaceX, OpenAI, Telomir Pharmaceuticals (Radical Life Extension), a Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation research company to help the Depression problem, and so on.