US 2024 Presidential Election

[tippy2k2]

I think they still demand the meal but are not above taking tha crumbs when they can get them.

Except they don't. They yell at people for daring to withhold their vote because the blue side offers crumbs so they're the good guys.

Everything is burning to the ground (literally if you're in Gaza) but you have to vote for Harris because if you don't, the other guy will win. The same song and dance for the last 20 fucking years and look at where it has gotten us. Lots of crumbs, no actual food.

I'll see y'all again in 2028 when I'm told we can go after food NEXT election but this election, you have to hold your nose and vote for Democrats because otherwise The Other Guy will win

 

[Silvanus]

Sigh.

He'd prefer a system wide reform to support everyone, rather than making case by case adjustments for medications one at a time during voting cycles.

Obviously. This is something that everyone here is in favour of.

So in the in the absence of that reform (which is unaffected by third party votes), the question is whether one sees an insulin cap as worthy of support in itself. Do you think it is?

He dismisses that a change like this, helps to prolong the existing problematic system by relieving public pressure against it.

Accelerationism, then? Beneficial changes are to be avoided because they make people less dissatisfied?

You can dismiss this as inadequate change on the larger problem, independently of the impact on those who will benefit from it.

You can in principle believe that the change is inadequate, and also that the impact would benefit people.

But you cannot divorce your vote, or lack thereof, of that impact. If you vote according to that principle, then you're also voting about the impact on those 8+ million. You simply are.

 

[Satinavian]

Except they don't. They yell at people for daring to withhold their vote because the blue side offers crumbs so they're the good guys.

Sure they are upset if they see your behavior of contributing to not even get the crumbs.

Everything is burning to the ground (literally if you're in Gaza) but you have to vote for Harris because if you don't, the other guy will win. The same song and dance for the last 20 fucking years and look at where it has gotten us. Lots of crumbs, no actual food.

I'll see y'all again in 2028 when I'm told we can go after food NEXT election but this election, you have to hold your nose and vote for Democrats because otherwise The Other Guy will win

And how is not voting Harris going to change that ? If Trump wins, the Democrats will take the lesson that they have to move further to the right to steal Republican voters because so many people obviously like right wing policies.

Generally primaries are what decides how left/right the democratic dandidate is. It is also where the party politics gets decided. Yes, untortunately you didn't have a proper one this time.

As for Gaza, the only thing one can do is taking part in protests, maybe also BDS. Talk about it, turn public opinion.

 

[tippy2k2]

Sure they are upset if they see your behavior of contributing to not even get the crumbs.


And how is not voting Harris going to change that ? If Trump wins, the Democrats will take the lesson that they have to move further to the right to steal Republican voters because so many people obviously like right wing policies.

Generally primaries are what decides how left/right the democratic dandidate is. It is also where the party politics gets decided. Yes, untortunately you didn't have a proper one this time.

As for Gaza, the only thing one can do is taking part in protests, maybe also BDS. Talk about it, turn public opinion.

Meanwhile Harris is CURRENTLY sprinting to the Right on issues like Immigration, Cops, and Healthcare as she flat out abandons any semblance of M4A while she gleefully dances over the bodies of children in Gaza (while full chested scream bragging about all the Republicans who are endorsing her). Democrats have been moving right this entire time, whether they win or lose. Y'all VBNMW and then are shocked pikachu faced when they cut back on even the crumbs they're willing to hand over to you...

I'd have figured at some point y'all would finally at least consider taking a stand over this shit and at least pretend like you might consider not voting for Harris to see if you could pressure her into maybe considering moving a little bit left.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'd have figured at some point y'all would finally at least consider taking a stand over this shit and at least pretend like you might consider not voting for Harris to see if you could pressure her into maybe considering moving a little bit left.

What, like the Dems went leftwing when Trump won?

Now, you are absolutely correct when you say it'll be the same in 2028 (I mean, assuming that Trump doesn't win this time and end democracy as he claims), but I'm pretty sure everyone here wanting Harris to win knows that.

If you refuse to vote for Harris because of a moral conviction, well, I don't agree, but I can certainly understand and respect that. If you refuse to vote for her because you think it'll help the US political situation that's flat out wrong.

 

[tippy2k2]

What, like the Dems went leftwing when Trump won?

Now, you are absolutely correct when you say it'll be the same in 2028 (I mean, assuming that Trump doesn't win this time and end democracy as he claims), but I'm pretty sure everyone here wanting Harris to win knows that.

If you refuse to vote for Harris because of a moral conviction, well, I don't agree, but I can certainly understand and respect that. If you refuse to vote for her because you think it'll help the US political situation that's flat out wrong.

I feel I've been very consistent in my view that I don't believe in Acceloratism, if for any other reason, every time the Republicans win, Democrats don't do shit about it anyway. So there's no point in expecting it to all of a sudden burn a fire in Libs this go around if Trump wins. We've been through this song and dance for 20 years so we know exactly how it goes. If Democrats win, Libs go back to brunch and ignore all the shit Democrats do that they were angry about when Republicans were doing it. If Republicans wins, everything gets all kinds of fucked up. When the Democrats retake power, they continue to do nothing to help (and keep many Republican policies) and Libs go right back to brunch. The only accelorism that would actually work is an actual revolt of some kind but that's incredibly unlikely to happen in current day America.

I'm not voting for Harris because Harris is a shit candidate. That's been my stance this entire time and will continue to be my stance until Harris decides to stop being a shit candidate. Hell, right now my bar is INCREDIBLY low as I'd consider voting for her if she actually took action to stand up to Israel rather than my usual bar of "X Candidate has to be at a bar minimum for M4A". I'd be compromising AF on my own values but if it would get Harris and Co to stop funding a damn genocide in our name, I'd likely swallow my pride and take that hit to make it happen.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I feel I've been very consistent in my view that I don't believe in Acceloratism, if for any other reason, every time the Republicans win, Democrats don't do shit about it anyway. So there's no point in expecting it to all of a sudden burn a fire in Libs this go around if Trump wins. We've been through this song and dance for 20 years so we know exactly how it goes. If Democrats win, Libs go back to brunch and ignore all the shit Democrats do that they were angry about when Republicans were doing it. If Republicans wins, everything gets all kinds of fucked up. When the Democrats retake power, they continue to do nothing to help (and keep many Republican policies) and Libs go right back to brunch. The only accelorism that would actually work is an actual revolt of some kind but that's incredibly unlikely to happen in current day America.

I'm not voting for Harris because Harris is a shit candidate. That's been my stance this entire time and will continue to be my stance until Harris decides to stop being a shit candidate. Hell, right now my bar is INCREDIBLY low as I'd consider voting for her if she actually took action to stand up to Israel rather than my usual bar of "X Candidate has to be at a bar minimum for M4A". I'd be compromising AF on my own values but if it would get Harris and Co to stop funding a damn genocide in our name, I'd likely swallow my pride and take that hit to make it happen.

Fair enough, I thought you were implying that the Dems would learn and get their act together, must have misread you.

 

[Silvanus]

I'd have figured at some point y'all would finally at least consider taking a stand over this shit and at least pretend like you might consider not voting for Harris to see if you could pressure her into maybe considering moving a little bit left.

Voting for accelerationism, or refusing to vote, isn't pressuring anyone. It's sort of the opposite; sending a message that your priorities need not be taken into account. Because most of the time, even when mainstream parties have offered things that the refuseniks wanted, the same voices have just expressed that they don't trust 'em so ain't voting for 'em anyway.

On a side note, I also find it funny that you're complaining that others are denigrating you for your voting choice... while you happily denigrate them for theirs. You've been a great deal more censorious about my approach than i have about yours. A little self-awareness perhaps?

 

[tippy2k2]

Voting for accelerationism, or refusing to vote, isn't pressuring anyone. It's sort of the opposite; sending a message that your priorities need not be taken into account. Because most of the time, even when mainstream parties have offered things that the refuseniks wanted, the same voices have just expressed that they don't trust 'em so ain't voting for 'em anyway.

On a side note, I also find it funny that you're complaining that others are denigrating you for your voting choice... while you happily denigrate them for theirs. You've been a great deal more censorious about my approach than i have about yours. A little self-awareness perhaps?

You guys keep taking shots at me for voting for someone other than Harris and then get cranky and indignant that I don't just lie down and take it. Yeah, if you guys want to throw punches at me, I have zero issues throwing them right back. Every election my vote is completely worthless and not worth going after until Democrats lose, in which case it is then all my fault and I should have just gotten in line like a good little party member. I am both inconsequential and never worth listening to while simultaneously being the most powerful force in the entire United States.

As for me being "more censorious" in my approach, I do sometimes get overly aggressive at people in here and that is absolutely a fault of mine (and something I have called myself out in this very thread a few times). But every time I see a kid with their head blown off using weapons we provide because our leaders are in a competition to see who can suck Israel off even harder than the other side, I get a little cranky. Unfortunately, since both Democrats and Republicans are tripping over each other for the opportunity to play with Israel's balls, we get to see those images out of Gaza on a daily basis.

 

[Silvanus]

You guys keep taking shots at me for voting for someone other than Harris

I initially did not, though. I initially said quite clearly that I considered your approach to be rational and principled. You took shots at me first, accusing me of abetting a holocaust. Holster the indignation, because you are not "throwing punches back" at me. You threw some fucking horrible punches first.

 

[tippy2k2]

I initially did not, though. I initially said quite clearly that I considered your approach to be rational and principled. You took shots at me first, accusing me of abetting a holocaust. Holster the indignation, because you are not "throwing punches back" at me. You threw some fucking horrible punches first.

Are you confusing me and Crimson again because I have never said anyone voting for Harris was abetting a genocide.

The closest thing to that I've said is your sides own line thrown right back to you. If you vote for Trump, you might not be a racist but racism isn't a deal breaker for you and if you vote for Harris, you might not be Pro-Genocide but Genocide is not a deal breaker for you...

Or is that logic only ok when you're going after Republicans?

 

[Silvanus]

Are you confusing me and Crimson again because I have never said anyone voting for Harris was abetting a genocide.

The closest thing to that I've said is your sides own line thrown right back to you. If you vote for Trump, you might not be a racist but racism isn't a deal breaker for you and if you vote for Harris, you might not be Pro-Genocide but Genocide is not a deal breaker for you...

Or is that logic only ok when you're going after Republicans?

This is you accusing anyone voting Dem of "supporting genocide".

This is, rhetorically speaking, you accusing anyone voting Dem of abetting a holocaust. That's the analogy you intended to invoke, quite clearly.

Look, you can make these accusations if you want, I don't care. Or you can complain that others are being too snippy about your voting preference. You can't do both without some incredible hypocrisy. Your own condemnations and "punches" about others' voting preferences are far more severe and well before anything censorious I said about you.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

So the Harris/Walz claims on Project 2025 and Trump’s ties to it is even something CNN is willing to pump the brakes on -

Fact check: Walz makes false claims about Vance, Trump and Project 2025 | CNN Politics

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz, the Democratic vice presidential candidate, has made at least three false claims over the last two weeks about the Republican vice presidential candidate Sen. JD Vance of Ohio and Republican presidential candidate former President Donald Trump.

amp.cnn.com

In general it’s more fear mongering at its best, like it has been the last few election cycles.

Project 2025: Fact-checking Democrats’ misleading and overly dramatic claims - Washington Examiner

Democrats have made a number of misleading claims about Project 2025, a conservative policy wish list written by think tanks.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

It’s practically all she can talk about at around the four minute mark. Almost like the left’s version of “they’re going to eat all of your pets!”

 

[tippy2k2]

This is you accusing anyone voting Dem of "supporting genocide".

Yeah, sure, taken out of context that's what it sounds like. That's me making an argument using your sides logic. If I vote for Stein and Trump wins, everything Trump does and stands for is "on me". But when you guys actively vote for your own candidate, everything she does is not on you and you can just wash your hands of the genocide going on in our name.

This is, rhetorically speaking, you accusing anyone voting Dem of abetting a holocaust. That's the analogy you intended to invoke, quite clearly.

Look, you can make these accusations if you want, I don't care. Or you can complain that others are being too snippy about your voting preference. You can't do both without some incredible hypocrisy. Your own condemnations and "punches" about others' voting preferences are far more severe and well before anything censorious I said about you.

and for that one, yes, I 100% stand by it. People who are voting for Democrats are choosing to turn their backs on the genocide in Gaza. You might not necessarily be Pro-Genocide in doing so but you are showing that Genocide is not a deal breaker for you.

Maybe it's my fault for not being clear enough in every single post I make but I feel like I've been very consistent in that messaging throughout this thread. Voting for Harris doesn't necessarily make you fine with the genocide going on but voting Harris does show your red line is not a genocide.

Either way, I DGAF at this point. The lines have been clearly drawn. It's up to you as a voter to determine which of those lines you are willing to cross and which ones you are not willing to cross. I know which lines I won't cross and if Harris wants me to vote for her, she has to be on the correct side of that line. If your line is somewhere else, that is your call.

 

[Silvanus]

Yeah, sure, taken out of context that's what it sounds like. That's me making an argument using your sides logic. If I vote for Stein and Trump wins, everything Trump does and stands for is "on me". But when you guys actively vote for your own candidate, everything she does is not on you and you can just wash your hands of the genocide going on in our name.

"My side's logic"... I have no affiliation with anyone else arguing with you. We're individuals. I tried to be accommodating with your position, called it rational and principled, didn't employ the logic you used there. But I'm still apparently a genocidal maniac because of some fucking meaningless "side".

and for that one, yes, I 100% stand by it.

Fine. Then don't whine about other people being harsh about your voting preferences.

You can hurl accusations, or you can tone police when people are mean about your approach. Do both and it's rank hypocrisy.

 

[tippy2k2]

"My side's logic"... I have no affiliation with anyone else arguing with you. We're individuals. I tried to be accommodating with your position, called it rational and principled, didn't employ the logic you used there. But I'm still apparently a genocidal maniac because of some fucking meaningless "side".

Then my argument there doesn't apply to you. But you're the one trying to call out my argument there and show how I'm being OH SO HYPOCRITICAL. I am merely responding to your criticism to it and explaining what the comment was supposed to mean. So if that's not your thoughts, then I apologize for crediting that to you.

 

[FakeSympathy]

So i registered to vote, and I have been watching the two candidates.

And I say this in a sense of "pick your poison", but I'm gonna have to go with Harris.

Yes, I have option to pick the green party, but we all know they aren't gonna get anywhere. And while I am certain voting for Harris is going to bite me in the ass later (whether she does get elected or not), I just cannot see that delusional orange clown in the office again.

I am also doing this for foreign affairs as well, especially for Korea. Because I distinctly remember Trump trying to make ROK pay more for the operation/defense fee, when ROK already was paying a very reasonable amount. I am pretty sure it never went anywhere, but I am pretty sure Trump will try this shit again, even with US dwarfing ROK in economics and logistics.

 

[Hades]

I'm still expecting a Trump president and mainly for the same reason I said before. The electoral system in the US artificially boosting the Republicans means that anything that can go right for the Democrats must go right if they want to win. And the disunity on Gaza already puts a wrench in that. But there are other factors to consider too.

Chiefly is that the institutional barriers for Harris are just too great. The electoral college, the supreme court, the media(yes the media) and the richest person on earth with the largest information network are all on Trump's side. With this Trump has multiple avenues to pursue victory even in the unlikely case that anything that can go right will go right for Harris.

The razor thin margin also allows for outside interference to be immediately effective. We can already see Musk take advantage of that by being a rat and blatantly bribing people to vote for Trump so he can get his tax cuts. If the margins are so small a corrupt rat bribing tons of people is very likely to make a difference.

The other outsider if Bibi. The Gaza conflict dominates this election and that conflict is entirely under his control. And just like Musk Bibi is a Trump partisan. I'd not put it past him to escalate in the election week to influence the result.

I'm not really convinced by polling, be their slightly in favor of Harris or Trump. But it remains a consistent fact that in all of them Harris performed worse then Clinton and Biden who lost and just modestly won respectively. So while any definitive proof its still doesn't suggest much good for her chances.

 

[BrawlMan]

Yes, I have option to pick the green party, but we all know they aren't gonna get anywhere. And while I am certain voting for Harris is going to bite me in the ass later (whether she does get elected or not), I just cannot see that delusional orange clown in the office again.

I am also doing this for foreign affairs as well, especially for Korea. Because I distinctly remember Trump trying to make ROK pay more for the operation/defense fee, when ROK already was paying a very reasonable amount. I am pretty sure it never went anywhere, but I am pretty sure Trump will try this shit again, even with US dwarfing ROK in economics and logistics.

You made an informed decision, and you're already doing the right thing by doing so. And I can't blame you for trying to screw over somebody like Trump. You are also trying to help your people. In turn, it helps everybody else.

 

[BrawlMan]

Look at that a bunch of another assholes trying to stop "rigged votes" with no actual authority and making himself the authority.

"Election protection" activist says he plans to flag voters with "Hispanic-sounding" names as "suspicious"

Exclusive video shows leader of a North Carolina "election integrity" activist group describe a strategy for identifying "suspicious" voters for post-election challenges.

www.cbsnews.com

Poll: Voters repelled by election denial and overturning Roe — and drawn to economic proposals

The NBC News poll tested policy proposals in the 2024 campaign, finding openness to economic proposals and opposition to denying the 2020 election results.

www.google.com

Trump cares about y'all even less people. You have a right to be upset, about Palestine and Isreal relations, but going to him, reluctantly or not will not change anything. It will just be even worse. This is the same man that will drop you the moment you are no longer needed, and made threats at you for not voting for him. Do you really want to take a chance with that guy (again)?