US 2024 Presidential Election

Agema

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Sounds to me like now you've named multiple distinct segments of the population that might be the subject of your description, yet you continue to view it as advice to those who can't.
Back in the 1990s, during a drought (in the UK, where it rains half the fucking time), an executive of a water company told everyone they didn't need to have baths and showers, and he and his wife hadn't hadn't used theirs in weeks. Just a bowl of water, wipe yourself down. (This was technically correct, except we might also note it turns out he had also been staying over at his parents in a less water-starved region and using their shower, because that's just the sort of twat these people are.)

The problem with this is that he's a water company boss and his company's job is to get water to people, which it was struggling to do in a country that should not really have a water shortage problem. The solutions we want to hear from him are things well in the remit of useful things water companies should do in the process of provision of water supplies like:
"We'll invest in a repairs campaign to reduce pipe leakage"
"We'll work on increasing reservoir capacity"
"We'll try to reduce waste by recycling water"
"We'll create systems to make it easier to get water from non-drought areas"
And so on.

Instead, the tool patronises us about our use of water because he and his forebears didn't get their act together, and whose only tactic for the current crisis was get the government to install a hosepipe ban, beg us to use less water, and wait and pray for rain.

* * *

And do you know what the difference is between him and the US AgSec 2025? At least he was being patronising about something that was genuinely useful, as in that situation people really did need to pitch in to conserve water. A few people extra people keeping chickens isn't even practical.
 
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Chimpzy

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The Rogue Wolf

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DOGE can't directly fire anyone outside of their own department. Everyone who has been let go has been let go by their own department or agency. And those have to be done within the existing framework for hiring and firing. This is why its been a lot of probationary employees, not because they are suspected of being extra bad, but because the rules allows them to be fired much easier.
Then why the lawsuits and restraining orders, if everything has been done according to policy?
 

Silvanus

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Then why the lawsuits and restraining orders, if everything has been done according to policy?
As tstorm says, Doge can't directly fire anyone. But the OPM (which has been co-opted by Doge) issued a directive telling departments to fire people. That's the degree of separation they used to legitimise it.

Hence lawsuits and restraining orders are against the OPM rather than Doge, on the basis that the directive was unlawful.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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As tstorm says, Doge can't directly fire anyone. But the OPM (which has been co-opted by Doge) issued a directive telling departments to fire people. That's the degree of separation they used to legitimise it.

Hence lawsuits and restraining orders are against the OPM rather than Doge, on the basis that the directive was unlawful.
My understanding was that the OPM had effectively become DOGE.
 

tstorm823

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And do you know what the difference is between him and the US AgSec 2025?
A) She wasn't telling people what they ought to do.
B) Her comment was a footnote of a multi-billion dollar plan of what the federal government is planning.
 

tstorm823

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Then why the lawsuits and restraining orders, if everything has been done according to policy?
Come back and ask that question after those lawsuits pan out. I'm not going to go so far as to say with certainty that every action has been according to policy, I certainly don't know that, I doubt any one person can know that,. But if they were throwing the policies in the dumpster and firing people without authority and in violation of established policies, it doesn't make any sense to target probationary employees or offer buyouts to people. You don't search for ways to end-around the rules if you intend to trample over them regardless.
 

Agema

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Didn't know Emma Vigeland is so awful on this.
My vague memories of this at the time were that a lot of people didn't exactly show the injured girl the sort of sympathy you might expect from people who otherwise prioritise care for others. Never mind that they didn't quite seem to realise the gift the incident was to opponents to male to female trans athletes, and that that sort of response would likely compound the PR disaster.

However, the argument that injured women is a reasonable trade-off for the rights of transwomen to engage in sports is not unreasonable. After all, the world is full of such trade-offs: for instance at some point, health and safety has to be balanced against the need to get things done economically. Or that one could simply fire back to right-wing critics that a lot more people in society getting shot is a trade-off for their right to own a gun, and ask them whether they want to apply the same logic there.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Look, I get that getting injured sucks, but the entire reason it was getting mocked was *because* people jumped straight to "the argument that injured women is a reasonable trade-off for the rights of transwomen to engage in sports is not unreasonable" over the second most common way to get injured in volleyball

If a single fluke result from a common injury is enough to argue about, then the sport *as a whole* should be banned immediately. Hell, sport *in general* should be banned. Which is clearly a mockable argument, hence the mocking
 
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tstorm823

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Oh, right you are.

Nonetheless: a federal court has still ruled the OPM's directive was unlawful.
A federal judge appointed by Clinton in a liberal state gave a surprisingly unprofessionally worded order that frankly didn't even actually contradict the memo it was addressing, it only made them add a disclaimer that OPM doesn't have authority over other departments' hiring or firing.
 

Silvanus

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A federal judge appointed by Clinton in a liberal state [...]
Blah blah blah, you don't like the ruling, I don't much care.

The OPM directed other departments to fire people. They had no legal power to do so. And the difference between the OPM firing people and telling other people they have to fire them is a quibble.
 

tstorm823

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The OPM directed other departments to fire people. They had no legal power to do so. And the difference between the OPM firing people and telling other people they have to fire them is a quibble.
If you can find me the part where they told other people they have to fire anyone, you win.

The memo from the Office of Personnel Management requested that agencies compile lists of their probationary employees and determine whether those employees should be retained. Those other agencies then fired many probationary employees because that's the president's agenda. OPM didn't fire those people, nor did they direct any other agency to fire anyone, they offered guidance on how to legally comply with the president's directives.
 

Silvanus

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If you can find me the part where they told other people they have to fire anyone, you win.
Feb 14: "Through the exemptions process, agencies have identified the highest-performing probationers in mission-critical areas. Regulations on probationary periods state: "the agency shall utilise the probationary period as fully as possible to determine the fitness of the employee and shall terminate his or her services during this period if the employee fails to fully demonstrate his or her qualifications for further employment". OPM believes "qualifications for further employment" in the current context means only the highest-performing probationers in mission-critical areas should be retained".

Unless you're going to argue that every position is mission-critical, there is a clear instruction there to terminate those who fell outside the 'exemptions' process they outlined.

Even without this clarification, the insinuation of the original directive was clear enough: in asking agencies to list probationary employees, justify why they remain employed, and reminding them how easy it is to dismiss them, it's obvious what they were driving at. So it's no surprise that several agencies did fire employees... only to rehire them and offer back pay after the ruling.
 

tstorm823

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Feb 14: "Through the exemptions process, agencies have identified the highest-performing probationers in mission-critical areas. Regulations on probationary periods state: "the agency shall utilise the probationary period as fully as possible to determine the fitness of the employee and shall terminate his or her services during this period if the employee fails to fully demonstrate his or her qualifications for further employment". OPM believes "qualifications for further employment" in the current context means only the highest-performing probationers in mission-critical areas should be retained".

Unless you're going to argue that every position is mission-critical, there is a clear instruction there to terminate those who fell outside the 'exemptions' process they outlined.

Even without this clarification, the insinuation of the original directive was clear enough: in asking agencies to list probationary employees, justify why they remain employed, and reminding them how easy it is to dismiss them, it's obvious what they were driving at. So it's no surprise that several agencies did fire employees... only to rehire them and offer back pay after the ruling.
Try moving your underline to "they believe" and "in the current context". The directives to freeze hiring and cut employees is coming from the White House. The office of personnel management advised on how to comply with those directives, and asked to keep records of their staffing decisions up to date with them, since they are the office of personnel management.

There certainly is clear instruction to terminate most probationary employees. It's coming from the president. Suing OPM for trying to, you know, manage the personnel changes that were ordered from the White House is quite the misunderstanding of the situation.
 

Trunkage

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I genuinely worry about you specifically. Your responses keep getting worse over time, and I hope you aren't falling to pieces on the other side of the internet.
Ah, there's that patronising Tstorm

Didn't take long, did it?

I assume, from the rules you set up earlier, this means I get to ignore everything in this paragraph
 

Trunkage

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It is not unreasonable to say DOGE has been firing government workers if department leaders have been firing workers at Musk/DOGE's say-so. Not least because it is possible that department leaders may have believed that they were expected or even required to do as Musk/DOGE instructed.
DOGE absolutely fired a bunch of people, doing an end run around department heads by forcing their hand. Then the courts step in and said that wasn't legal. The department heads did not like this one bit and were always pushing back.

Now, Trump has started the same tune he did every time he dropped someone during the last administration. We will see if that is just DOGE or targeted at Musk in particular. But the shadow government/ deep state no longer has the same power it did a week ago. Trump copied the same talking points as the Dems and GOP.