It's ok to be angry about capitalism

Recommended Videos

Bedinsis

Elite Member
Legacy
Escapist +
May 29, 2014
2,053
1,110
118
Country
Sweden
Of course they will.

It's not a matter of choice, it will just happen.

People will need to work with the Chinese and bit by bit people will find it expedient to learn Mandarin. Business - manufacturing, services, tourism, etc. - all will benefit from the advantages of better communication. China will increasingly produce a ton of media - films, TV, games, music, and people will learn Mandarin to better access and understand it. They will want to visit China themselves, and tend to learn basic Mandarin to help them get around. They'll meet Chinese people more and more with cultural exchanges and school trips and stuff, and learn Mandarin for fun. Let the decades roll by and eventually half the country will speak at least functional Mandarin.

That's what economic and cultural dominance does.

In 1800, the English elites learnt French. Such was the legacy of France's economic and cultural power in the preceding generations. Then the British and later Americans became dominant, and now the French elites learn English. It's not like the English and French like each other, but they sure as hell learnt each other's language when it was beneficial.
Depends on if they invade Taiwan. That will sever lots of people's willingness to maintain trade relationships with them.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,647
3,265
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Depends on if they invade Taiwan. That will sever lots of people's willingness to maintain trade relationships with them.
*Looks at Gaza*
I would not be so sure. There are a quite a few people who would ignore war crimes to gain a few extra bucks

There are a lot of Anti-China Hawks who lie and make it really hard to find out any truth
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
34,975
14,322
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,534
3,914
118
Country
United States of America
Depends on if they invade Taiwan.
Like when they liberated Tibet from serfdom? In any case, the world would not care too much about the government of China crushing another organization that claims to be the rightful government of China without a whole lot of propaganda.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
20,160
4,516
118
In any case, the world would not care too much about the government of China crushing another organization that claims to be the rightful government of China without a whole lot of propaganda.
Tibet wasn't defended by the US for the last 76 years, not does it have much trade with the rest of the world.

Having said that, if China can take and hold Taiwan, people outside the immediate area would get used to it within a few years, yes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seanchaidh

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
10,996
7,953
118
Depends on if they invade Taiwan. That will sever lots of people's willingness to maintain trade relationships with them.
No, it won't.

China produces too much. No-one meaningful can effectively embargo China. The USA kind of tried and almost instantly folded - either watering down its actions, or creating huge exceptions, etc. Just like when Russia attacked Ukraine, the West couldn't embargo it in all sorts of key areas. It took years and a lot of pain for Europe to arrange alternative energy suppliers.

It would take years and years to disentangle from China. What will probably happen is some superficial sanctions on easy stuff, then working at stronger ones as replacement supply lines can be formed. But as the years pass, the anger and motivation will also fade. Many of these sanctions just won't happen: countries (especially ones in a tight spot) will decide it's easier to take the benefits of Chinese trade than pursue a grudge. If China invades Taiwan, it'll take an almighty hit to its global reputation in the short term, and just ten years down the line probably have normalised most international relationships close to the status ante bellum.

What would also encourage rapprochement with China by other countries in this scenario is the USA. Who the fuck trusts the USA any more? I don't think anyone want to put more eggs in that basket.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Bedinsis

Elite Member
Legacy
Escapist +
May 29, 2014
2,053
1,110
118
Country
Sweden
China produces too much. No-one meaningful can effectively embargo China. The USA kind of tried and almost instantly folded - either watering down its actions, or creating huge exceptions, etc. Just like when Russia attacked Ukraine, the West couldn't embargo it in all sorts of key areas. It took years and a lot of pain for Europe to arrange alternative energy suppliers.
And arrange it we did. I see no reason why China could not get embargoed the same way. The only caveat being that even among the democratic states in east Asia the relations are frosty, whereas the states of eastern Europe mostly already are in the cooperative union of the EU.
It would take years and years to disentangle from China. What will probably happen is some superficial sanctions on easy stuff, then working at stronger ones as replacement supply lines can be formed. But as the years pass, the anger and motivation will also fade. Many of these sanctions just won't happen: countries (especially ones in a tight spot) will decide it's easier to take the benefits of Chinese trade than pursue a grudge. If China invades Taiwan, it'll take an almighty hit to its global reputation in the short term, and just ten years down the line probably have normalised most international relationships close to the status ante bellum.
I'd argue it depends on how well that invasion goes. The "liberation" of Donbas and Crimea didn't sever the trade agreements with Russia; the current invasion did.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
10,996
7,953
118
And arrange it we did. I see no reason why China could not get embargoed the same way. The only caveat being that even among the democratic states in east Asia the relations are frosty, whereas the states of eastern Europe mostly already are in the cooperative union of the EU.
Russia is a bit-player in the global economy. It's basically just a petrostate with nukes, and doesn't make much that's important to the world.

China, however, is unavoidable. It's incredible just how much China makes. It's not just the obvious stuff everyone thinks about (tech and electricals, clothes, furniture etc.) but loads of basic chemicals, minerals, plastics, parts which underpin huge swathes of global industrial production. There are key areas of industry where China is a staggering 20-25% of global production.

Much of that production can't be moved en masse without a timeframe best measured in decades. To cut out China, many of these industries would need to move to countries that lack both the infrastructure and and labour skills to take them on. It would be years to train up a workforce capable of doing the jobs, years to build factories. Many of these countries would need years to build the infrastructure (transport, energy, etc.) before they could even train the workforce and build the factories.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Bedinsis

Elite Member
Legacy
Escapist +
May 29, 2014
2,053
1,110
118
Country
Sweden
Russia is a bit-player in the global economy. It's basically just a petrostate with nukes, and doesn't make much that's important to the world.

China, however, is unavoidable. It's incredible just how much China makes. It's not just the obvious stuff everyone thinks about (tech and electricals, clothes, furniture etc.) but loads of basic chemicals, minerals, plastics, parts which underpin huge swathes of global industrial production. There are key areas of industry where China is a staggering 20-25% of global production.

Much of that production can't be moved en masse without a timeframe best measured in decades. To cut out China, many of these industries would need to move to countries that lack both the infrastructure and and labour skills to take them on. It would be years to train up a workforce capable of doing the jobs, years to build factories. Many of these countries would need years to build the infrastructure (transport, energy, etc.) before they could even train the workforce and build the factories.
So the rest of the world will have to live with less of what China makes (and the industries that make those wares in China will have to live with not selling those wares). Is there anything China makes which is critical enough that without it people die? Like food or artificial fertilizers.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
34,975
14,322
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
Roblox has been doing this nasty shit since 2009. I'm glad to see they lost twelve billion dollars in a day. I hope they continue to lose everything and feel true despair.

 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
10,996
7,953
118
So the rest of the world will have to live with less of what China makes (and the industries that make those wares in China will have to live with not selling those wares). Is there anything China makes which is critical enough that without it people die? Like food or artificial fertilizers.
China is one of, if not the, leading global producer of fertiliser.

It is also one of the world's leading producers of pharmaceuticals, so there would be a drug supply crisis. It gets worse for medicines, because a lot of the basic chemicals (think things like simple salts, e.g. magnesium sulfate) are key to the chemical industry and production of these, IV fluids, etc. and even if the final product is not manufactured in China, the supply lines may well go back there - and again, even where not, a global supply crisis would cause massive price increases and shortages. Likewise Chinese production will be a huge element in supply chains for equipment (machinery, electronics) for virtually any industry - including farming and medical.

A lot of it is just the general impact. We got a massive 10% inflation spike and shortages when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022. Now imagine the damage at boycotting a vastly larger and more powerful economy. This will causes massive public discontent: the average person struggling to feed their family or lacking medicine is not going to give a shit about Chinese aggression towards Taiwan. Enough people would be happy to sacrifice the Taiwanese to oppression just so they can have the latest phone. Opposition parties - especially the shitrag right-wing agitators - are not going to tell the electorate we all have to share the pain to resist Chinese aggression, they're going to hammer the government for economic mismanagement to boost themselves into power on the back of this discontent. Thus governments will collapse across the West.

Most governments will simply refuse to put their people through that much loss or submit themselves to a crushing defeat next election in the first place, and just not impose those sorts of sanctions. We already did precisely nothing when it became clear China was herding its own people in Xinjiang into concentration camps, they're not going to take much pain for Taiwan either.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
14,050
7,270
118
Country
United Kingdom
when did that become clear?
The Amnesty report was in June 2021. The Xinjiang police files containing hundreds of thousands of photos, charges and internal instructions, were leaked in May 2022 and verified by 14 media companies. The UN report was in August 2022.

Like when they liberated Tibet from serfdom?
Identical to the racist justifications utilised by European colonialists in the 19th century. "The lesser peoples and backwards tribes can't govern themselves, they need the civilising influence of the Empire to rule them for their own good."
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,534
3,914
118
Country
United States of America
The Amnesty report was in June 2021. The Xinjiang police files containing hundreds of thousands of photos, charges and internal instructions, were leaked in May 2022 and verified by 14 media companies. The UN report was in August 2022.
So it didn't become clear. OK.

Watch as Dr. Adrian Zenz, an international expert on internal Chinese government documents and the Xinjiang internment campaign, breaks down the contents of the Xinjiang Police Files, why they are important, and how civil society and governments should respond.
Ah, there's that guy again.

Identical to the racist justifications utilised by European colonialists in the 19th century. "The lesser peoples and backwards tribes can't govern themselves, they need the civilising influence of the Empire to rule them for their own good."
Well, no.


The right of self-determination includes choosing to be or remain part of a larger country. As long as Tibetan nationalism is tied to the restoration of aristocratic/theocratic privilege, it is not likely that the people there will want to "rule themselves" in the way that you are suggesting.
 

XsjadoBlaydette

~s•o√r∆rπy°`Inc hope GrIfts etUrnaL
May 26, 2022
1,503
1,774
118
Clear 'n Present Danger
Country
Must
Gender
Disappear
climate disaster hits civilian area and police are despatched not to help any people but instead to stand guard outside stores - not the first example of this and certainly won't be the last: the strain of contradiction will be harder to ignore as global warming escalates, when shit hits the fan, rubber meets the road, the police aren't there to aide you, they're there to stop you going anywhere near the property of the owner/upper class. Is better to build trust with neighbours where possible