US 2024 Presidential Election

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Seanchaidh

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Which you think is unaffected by the supply of money?
it's only indirectly related because there is this thing called the savings rate and there is more than one buyer of things and they all may or may not want things. the distribution of money matters a lot to what people are liable to do with it. if it's all held by one person, the price of food isn't likely to be high; if it's all distributed equally among a hungry population, the price of food will be higher even if it's the same amount of money.

all this is to say that inflation is the product of a wide variety of things, but none of those things are the balance point of the Federal budget.
 

tstorm823

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all this is to say that inflation is the product of a wide variety of things, but none of those things are the balance point of the Federal budget.
Yes, the balance of federal spending to taxation impacts inflation.

If I may cut through the crap momentarily, what do you gain here? I understand why you lie about a lot of things, but you absolutely know this sentence isn't true, everyone else should be aware that it isn't true and that you know it isn't true, and I have no idea why you're saying it.
 

Seanchaidh

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Yes, the balance of federal spending to taxation impacts inflation.
you can have deflation alongside deficit spending and you can have inflation with a budget surplus. both are quite possible. and it isn't just because of lag time on the effects of fiscal policy. inflation doesn't care whether the budget is in surplus or deficit. it cares about some numbers related to that, but also specifically not that itself.

because it is not about measuring spending vs. taxes, it is about measuring spending vs. the capacity of the economy to meet the demands of that spending. reducing taxes means there are more POTENTIAL competitors bidding for the economic output, not necessarily more ACTUAL competitors for it. Understand?

That is why certain types of taxes tend to have much less effect on aggregate demand than others; why reducing top income tax rates is usually not at all effective as a Keynesian stimulus (it tends to just get saved as compared to tax cuts for lower incomes) and also why they don't tend to cause much (if any) inflation either-- which is why going from Eisenhower's tax rates to Reagan's didn't cause a massive change in how the economy works despite Eisenhower's income tax rates sounding like communism to 21st century ears.

It is important to keep in mind that when economists speak of these things it's always at best an approximation because it is inherently a prediction of human behavior, which is always going to be fuzzy. When an economist says something like "tax cuts are good for growth" and you correctly observe that idea depends on whether the economy is already at full employment or not, that observation you would have just made is still an oversimplification. tax cuts mean there is more money that can be used by the private sector to buy things, but that only matters if it actually is used to buy things.

So what do tariffs do? They reduce the amount of goods from abroad that people can buy for the same price by destroying some of the money spent whenever it is spent in that manner. In terms of the effect of this on inflation, what have we accomplished by a tariff? If inflation is supposed to be an analog of the Federal budget balance, then we should think it allows the Federal government to spend more precisely by how much 'revenue' is claimed by the tariff in order to have the same inflation as otherwise.

But why would that be the case for a tariff?

Simple, you might think:

The tariff reduced the consumption of foreign goods, which means there is less currency abroad to demand exports from our economy and therefore more output available for the government to make use of.

But... it also may mean that there is more consumption of domestic goods, since they are comparatively cheaper now, meaning there is less local output available for the government to make use of.

Which of these factors is greater? It depends on a lot of things. Simplistically, it depends on price elasticities of demand and supply. But even that is just a way to model it.

And this is before even considering whether what the government wants to buy with its spending has the same inputs as the goods that were tariffed or their domestic counterparts (or whatever someone might have bought instead of buying the tariffed good).

In the long run, you might say, everything economical is ultimately a matter of the sum total of human effort, and putting tariffs on some goods while spending government monies in others means nudging the way that human effort is organized in a direction away from the production of the tariffed goods and toward more of the production of whatever the government spent its money on-- or which is to say, in the long run everything actually does all have the same inputs because everything an economy produces is ultimately put together or gathered or harvested by humans doing labor, and the capacity of humans generally to produce one thing or another (i.e. by education and training) responds to price signals. But of course that takes awhile. And is subject to its own complexities. But theoretically...

Do you not see how woolly this is getting compared to the logic of an accounting balance? It is all very flimsy and if you wanted to model it, each of these factors would have (and need) a different coefficient. Whereas an accounting balance is a straightforward matter of addition and subtraction and you either have enough or you don't. How a tariff or any other tax effects inflation (if it does at all) is anything but that. And I just want to stress this again: inflation doesn't care at what point the accounting balance would be $0. The effect of additional spending does not have an inflection point there. The effect of additional taxes does not have an inflection point there. Because it's fundamentally not about that.
 

Chimpzy

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New executive order to hold an indycar race on the DC Mall.
Inspired. Will make for a great litmus test on whether or not traffic in DC can in fact be made worse.
 

Silvanus

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The error rate in ICE arrests under Obama was over three times as high as what was under Trump last year. Media coverage was also largely favorable.
How much of this is down to how the Trump administration hides or doubles down on its mistakes, or how the incarceration of innocent people-- like those who broke no rules at all, and ended up in an El Salvadoran torture facility on the US government's dime-- wasn't a mistake at all?
 

tstorm823

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Do you not see how woolly this is getting compared to the logic of an accounting balance?
Now make the case that being more vague and complex leads to the conclusion that the balance has no effect whatsoever, cause that was your argument.
 

Seanchaidh

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Now make the case that being more vague and complex leads to the conclusion that the balance has no effect whatsoever, cause that was your argument.
if you got that impression, it is because I wasn't clear (I suppose). my argument is that inflation doesn't care whether the budget is in surplus or deficit because it simply isn't about having the money to pay for things. it cares about the goods and services on the market vs. the money that is being bid for them. (and even that is a simplification, since it uses auctions as a model to describe a lot of things that aren't really auctions but do vaguely start to resemble the behavior of auctions over time.)

Whereas an accounting balance is a straightforward matter of addition and subtraction and you either have enough or you don't. How a tariff or any other tax effects inflation (if it does at all) is anything but that. And I just want to stress this again: inflation doesn't care at what point the accounting balance would be $0. The effect of additional spending does not have an inflection point there. The effect of additional taxes does not have an inflection point there. Because it's fundamentally not about that.
 

tstorm823

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if you got that impression, it is because I wasn't clear (I suppose). my argument is that inflation doesn't care whether the budget is in surplus or deficit because it simply isn't about having the money to pay for things. it cares about the goods and services on the market vs. the money that is being bid for them. (and even that is a simplification, since it uses auctions as a model to describe a lot of things that aren't really auctions but do vaguely start to resemble the behavior of auctions over time.)
Now say that increasing taxes relative to spending has a deflationary effect.
 

BrawlMan

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Phoenixmgs

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Nice goal post move.

And you're still wrong, I also included the following in my list:



All things that happened last year, and which started the protests in the first place. The protests didn't spring up out of nothing.

So no, ICE was not acting business as usual before the protests started either. Now stop moving the goalposts.
I literally quoted when I replied to Tippy, I didn't move any goalposts... ICE has been acting they've always have and yet people are started protesting way back in June. Funny how these protests don't happen when there's a democrat president when ICE has operated under the same rules since their inception.

They got their due process. You guys don't understand due process isn't a term, it literally means the words "due" and "process" and that's all it means. Immigrants went through the processing they were due. That doesn't involve judicial review from the judicial BRANCH, the "judicial" review is from "courts" in the executive BRANCH. It's just like if you are charged from murder, you are due the process of a trial by jury whereas you are not due to the process of a trial by jury for a speeding ticket. The process you are due is different for different things.

I don't remember cities not working with ICE and declaring themselves sanctuary cities under Obama. ICE isn't allowed to go to say prisons or courthouses so they have to pick up people out in public and whatnot when police don't not work with them. Then, you guys keep doubling down on the not cooperating with ICE bullshit, which is how we got here in the first fucking place. ICE has the warrants that they need to detain these people, they aren't judicial warrants, they are warrants from the executive branch and DHS. This is literally how ICE has always worked.

He walked into a church that's open to the public during normal operating hours. Have you ever been to a church? Do you think the pastor individually invites every single person into the church when it's open and gives them specific permission to be there?
What Tstorm said basically. Most churches allow anyone from the public to join/attend the service. Just because the doors are "open" doesn't mean you can just walk in and do whatever the fuck you want. You can't go in there, interrupt the service, and start doing karaoke for example.

Private property like a... public church?
Public church is an oxymoron.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Lol sure. Churches aren't routinely open to public entrance, & anyone who goes to a Church without specific invitation is liable for a trespassing arrest.
Churches are not public properly, it's literally part of the constitution... A grocery store being open to the public also does not mean you can just go in and do whatever you want; once you are asked to leave, you have to leave, it's private property.
 

Silvanus

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Churches are not public properly, it's literally part of the constitution... A grocery store being open to the public also does not mean you can just go in and do whatever you want; once you are asked to leave, you have to leave, it's private property.
They're private property in the United States, but open to the public. He's not being charged with trespass: he's being charged under the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) act, and the Conspiracy Against Rights act.
 

Phoenixmgs

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tstorm823

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There's probably not enough evidence for Lemon to get a guilty verdict on those acts. However, the group that went there will probably be found guilty.
Why not? He filmed himself collaborating with them before the protest. They described aloud on camera precisely what they were going to do, which they are being charged with, and he joined them. They didn't invite him for the funsies, they invited them because their goal was to use the venue to cause a scene and become a big deal in the press, and he was a willing accessory to that. If all the press had ignored them, they might not have even done it, there'd be no point.

The pertinent question of course is whether he's being charged because he's Don Lemon. Cause if he wasn't Don Lemon, if he was a random person the group invited to film and comment on their actions, I don't think it's even a controversy that he's charged for conspiring with them.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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I literally quoted when I replied to Tippy, I didn't move any goalposts... ICE has been acting they've always have and yet people are started protesting way back in June. Funny how these protests don't happen when there's a democrat president when ICE has operated under the same rules since their inception.
You keep saying that like it's true but you still have yet to offer any evidence.

They got their due process. You guys don't understand due process isn't a term, it literally means the words "due" and "process" and that's all it means. Immigrants went through the processing they were due. That doesn't involve judicial review from the judicial BRANCH, the "judicial" review is from "courts" in the executive BRANCH. It's just like if you are charged from murder, you are due the process of a trial by jury whereas you are not due to the process of a trial by jury for a speeding ticket. The process you are due is different for different things.
Yes we know you don't know anything about how immigration or legal systems work, you don't have to keep reminding us.

I don't remember cities not working with ICE and declaring themselves sanctuary cities under Obama. ICE isn't allowed to go to say prisons or courthouses so they have to pick up people out in public and whatnot when police don't not work with them. Then, you guys keep doubling down on the not cooperating with ICE bullshit, which is how we got here in the first fucking place. ICE has the warrants that they need to detain these people, they aren't judicial warrants, they are warrants from the executive branch and DHS. This is literally how ICE has always worked.
Sanctuary cities were absolutely a thing under Obama. You have selective memory.


What Tstorm said basically. Most churches allow anyone from the public to join/attend the service. Just because the doors are "open" doesn't mean you can just walk in and do whatever the fuck you want. You can't go in there, interrupt the service, and start doing karaoke for example.
You're aware that Don Lemon wasn't charged with trespassing right? He was also clearly there as a journalist covering the protest rather than an active participant.
 
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Agema

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Now say that increasing taxes relative to spending has a deflationary effect.
:rolleyes:

Do you care to actually make a proper point here rather than peevishly pop one-liners at someone who patently understands more about how the system works than you?
 
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