US 2024 Presidential Election

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Schadrach

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ICE has the warrants that they need to detain these people, they aren't judicial warrants, they are warrants from the executive branch and DHS. This is literally how ICE has always worked.
Law enforcement entering private residences without judicial oversight is literally the primary thing the 5th Amendment was written to prevent. ICE literally signing their own warrants and arguing that gives them right to search anywhere they want is bullshit. This also wasn't a thing under previous presidents during the entire history of ICE. Nor was marching troops through cities as a show of power, and offering to remove them if the states turn over sensitive data. Nor was assaulting citizens and arresting them for obstruction for filming them on duty, or shooting them for the same. Etc, etc.
 
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tstorm823

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:rolleyes:

Do you care to actually make a proper point here rather than peevishly pop one-liners at someone who patently understands more about how the system works than you?
You are defending a gaslighting communist. Every accurate thing he says is intentional cover for the brazen lies he's trying to pass off. The proper point is to focus on only the lie. I'm not even going to contest the suggestion that Seanchaidh knows his stuff, you have to know your stuff to get it wrong on purpose the way he does. Please tell me that you can identify that behavior, and you're just bored enough to play along with it, cause I'm disappointed if you think he's being earnest.

To the point, he will not concede the effects of taxation and spending on the value of currency, because the end result he wants is to claim that there is no good reason the government isn't waving it's magic wand to fix everything, it's just that the capitalist powers that be don't care about your suffering. Admitting that there are downsides to printing more money for everything, downsides that taxation works to offset, would be admitting there is no magic wand, which might allow for people to empathize with the powers that be, which would really hurt the betting odds for spontaneous communist revolution.

Of course, important to remember, he does not believe there is a magic wand. He knows there isn't. He lies on purpose in whatever way he thinks is most detrimental to the current US status quo.
You're aware that Don Lemon wasn't charged with trespassing right? He was also clearly there as a journalist covering the protest rather than an active participant.
If the goal of the crime is publicity, bringing a camera and televising it is participation, not journalism. He was not covering a breaking news story, he is the news story, he made himself the story. If there is any legal defense to his actions, its that his personal motive in disrupting the service wasn't intimidation of the community, but rather just his over-inflated sense of self-importance.
 

Agema

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You are defending a gaslighting communist.
It doesn't matter whether he's communist: he knows his stuff on this topic better than you. He's pointing out a genuine flaw in how you represent the topic, and this isn't the first time you've made very spurious arguments based around "money supply" that suggest your comprehension of the topic is simplistic to the point of error.

More importantly, however, do you have any self-awareness at all?

The Trump tariffs were profoundly stupid, virtually every reputable economist can tell you so, and so profoundly stupid he had to junk nearly all of them a few weeks after he invented them. And yet you are here, dedicatedly running interference against that simple reality to defend your president and party. You've got some nerve accusing other people of trying to mislead to make a political point. Utter hypocrisy.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Why not? He filmed himself collaborating with them before the protest. They described aloud on camera precisely what they were going to do, which they are being charged with, and he joined them. They didn't invite him for the funsies, they invited them because their goal was to use the venue to cause a scene and become a big deal in the press, and he was a willing accessory to that. If all the press had ignored them, they might not have even done it, there'd be no point.

The pertinent question of course is whether he's being charged because he's Don Lemon. Cause if he wasn't Don Lemon, if he was a random person the group invited to film and comment on their actions, I don't think it's even a controversy that he's charged for conspiring with them.
It definitely seems like a grey area so he probably won't get convicted. Unless there's video of him actually interrupting the service himself or not leaving when told to leave (I don't know the timeline of when they were told to leave and if he stuck around afterward) or him actually blocking people from leaving.

You keep saying that like it's true but you still have yet to offer any evidence.



Yes we know you don't know anything about how immigration or legal systems work, you don't have to keep reminding us.



Sanctuary cities were absolutely a thing under Obama. You have selective memory.




You're aware that Don Lemon wasn't charged with trespassing right? He was also clearly there as a journalist covering the protest rather than an active participant.
Yes, I have shown you the ACLU article about ICE during Obama's terms. Then, you moved to goalposts to what has just happened very recently.

That is how immigration works legally, it's all within the executive branch. The only thing the judicial branch can come in and interrupt with is if ICE isn't following the act that created ICE. That is also how due process works.

So, it was just like the one city for like 1 year of Obama's 8 years as president? VS like most of the major cities nowadays? You wouldn't have any of this violence if cities just cooperated with federal law enforcement. As you can see from the article you posted, this wasn't a left/right issue, just do what 90% of the population wants, it's not that hard.

And I said he probably won't get a guilty verdict but what is wrong with charging him?

Law enforcement entering private residences without judicial oversight is literally the primary thing the 5th Amendment was written to prevent. ICE literally signing their own warrants and arguing that gives them right to search anywhere they want is bullshit. This also wasn't a thing under previous presidents during the entire history of ICE. Nor was marching troops through cities as a show of power, and offering to remove them if the states turn over sensitive data. Nor was assaulting citizens and arresting them for obstruction for filming them on duty, or shooting them for the same. Etc, etc.
I started this discussion before that had happened. There was no reason to protest ICE when people started protesting ICE.
 

Agema

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Why not? He filmed himself collaborating with them before the protest. They described aloud on camera precisely what they were going to do, which they are being charged with, and he joined them. They didn't invite him for the funsies, they invited them because their goal was to use the venue to cause a scene and become a big deal in the press, and he was a willing accessory to that. If all the press had ignored them, they might not have even done it, there'd be no point.

The pertinent question of course is whether he's being charged because he's Don Lemon. Cause if he wasn't Don Lemon, if he was a random person the group invited to film and comment on their actions, I don't think it's even a controversy that he's charged for conspiring with them.
Ah, it's always fun to see people work themselves up into defending authoritarianism.

I think there's a sort of sniff test here. If a journalist is covering some people, and they commit a crime, should the journalist be arrested as their associate in crime? On principle, I think most people would broadly say no. It seems like a bit of a licence for the government to harass and jail journalists, which doesn't seem consistent with principles of free press. It certainly seems likely to dissuade journalists from covering non-approved incidents, with the state as arbiter and intimidator-in-chief.

So it's very telling to see people magic up reasons why journalists should be arrested. I'm not sure about US jurisdictions stand on the government and media inviting the press to their functions and arrests, but if it's an interesting authoritarian power dynamic to give perks to the press as long as they're buffing the regime's actions whilst having them arrested for disagreeing with the regime.

Then there's this Ku Klux Klan law. I can see why that law exists. Does anyone think it's proportionate to apply in this situation? I mean, it's a stretch. Even if technically a breach in the law, the implications of it applying in this situation are wide-ranging and again grant enormous power to the government to chill dissent and protest. I understand that technicalities are difficult. But if a businessman puts in plainly fraudulent accounts, the sniff test tells us he's doing something he shouldn't irrespective of some legal technicalities. Criminalising protest against government officials through technicality looks like authoritarianism.

Plus of course it is totally legal to harass and intimidate people doing their constitutional business... as long as you are the government. Take this ill-advised prosecution, the president simply had a crony appointed (because a professional prosecutor probably wouldn't do it) to run court cases against a public official he had a beef with. Totally legal! Absolute harassment, but totally legal. Remember when you said the government was in the business of stopping Trump doing corrupt things, ha ha! And this is just a very, very small tip of the iceberg in the way that the state has been used to harass many, many organisations and individuals. Of course, not only are you protesting absolutely none of this, you're defending it. The government is the most terrifying potential power in the land because so little can limit it.

It says a great deal when a person has no comment on the state's many potential uses - abuses - of its power, whilst enthusiastically lauding the state vigorously attacking organisations an individuals on legally and morally dubious grounds. And that seems to be you all over when push comes to shove in these debates: as regular as clockwork the soul of authoritarianism.
 

BrawlMan

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Trump being a biatch. Can't sue a comedian over making fun of you and calling your bull. He couldn't sue Matt and Trey, so he's desperately trying to grasp any straws. Trevor Noah 1 million time's the man you'll never be.



 

Silvanus

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That is how immigration works legally, it's all within the executive branch. The only thing the judicial branch can come in and interrupt with is if ICE isn't following the act that created ICE. That is also how due process works.
Title 8 USC 1229a (covering the Immigration and Nationality Act 1952):

"§1229a. Removal proceedings
(a) Proceeding
(1) In general
An immigration judge shall conduct proceedings for deciding the inadmissibility or deportability of an alien."


Prior to this, the judiciary was already the main branch concerned with deportability, though with much more discretion up to the AG. It was never "all within the executive branch".

The exceptions in which judicial review is not always necessary-- such as expedited removal-- were introduced in 1997. Though they have specific applicability criteria.
 

Seanchaidh

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Now say that increasing taxes relative to spending has a deflationary effect.
You were asking about my nefarious motives earlier; I like it when people talk about economics and learn about it. I think that is generally good and in the interest of everybody. I think understanding things about how the economy works nudges working people in a revolutionary direction (or at least toward favoring change more generally). Even when that understanding is neoclassical propaganda, it is good at least that people are thinking about the topic. Notably, a large amount of what I'm saying here is literally the neoclassical party line on taxes or tariffs, not something only a Marxist would say. Anyway...

from the point of view of the consumer, an excise tax (a tariff is a kind of excise tax) has an inflationary effect because it makes at least some goods more expensive to the consumer. I'll admit that does seem kind of "only half true" because the seller isn't receiving that increase. But that isn't all.

Tariffs, in particular, usually occur in situations where there are clear domestic substitutes which can compete at a higher price because of the tariff-- in that case, the seller of the domestic substitute does receive the extra revenue. That means the supply curve moves left and the price goes up using the standard X-shaped microeconomics supply and demand graph. And then of course there is the deadweight loss.

The term "deadweight loss" is pretty foundational in microeconomics-- and it's one of the favorite things of neoclassical economists or anyone else overly concerned with "free markets" and "free trade" (or just hate taxes or price ceilings or price floors or subsidies) to talk about, so it's worth looking up for anyone who isn't familiar. Although I'll note that sometimes economic models predict a deadweight loss that doesn't seem to actually occur in real life, the most obvious example being minimum wages (of the kind that actually exist, not hypothetical $100/hr ones created only for the sake of argument), the reason being that the income effect of increased wages overwhelms the theoretical deadweight loss of the price floor on labor and leads to more rather than less economic activity and consequently more employment of labor due to the price floor, the opposite of deadweight loss.

Taking money out of the economy via taxes can have a deflationary effect. But you do have to think about how you're doing it; is what you're doing also decreasing supply somehow (like in the case of a tariff as outlined above, especially but not only one on a basic resource like, say, lithium would)? Is it discouraging investment? Tariffs can actually increase domestic investment in some cases: because domestic producers can compete at a higher price, investments in domestic production can be more profitable up to a point, which is usually the aim of having a tariff (or an outright import ban, if you're feeling even saucier). This effect does not tend to manifest in cases where the tariff lasts for only a week or an afternoon or whatever. Businesses don't tend to do well when making decisions based on falsehoods. Neoclassical economists often argue that these upsides of tariffs are never worth it (and nor is direct government investment in production instead), but in my opinion they are arguing against economic history on this point; it's good not to be dependent on steel imports, actually.

And with spending, you have to ask the question of what are you doing with that spending? What resources are you commanding and what are you doing with those resources? If you're commanding resources that would have largely gone unused, that has little inflationary impact. If you're doing something that creates more supply of some good or service, that tends to do the opposite of inflation. For example, government spending on making lots of housing can reduce the price of housing and, so long as it isn't putting too much stress on the supply of inputs that go into making any other goods or services, it will probably have a deflationary impact. Naturally, economic circumstances can change such that the same policy will have different outcomes with respect to prices, the most obvious of these changing circumstances being what we call "the business cycle".

In summary, economics is complicated. Actions reverberate often in multiple contradictory ways that are not always consistent over time. And fiscal and monetary policy is never as simple as double-entry bookkeeping (even if you're a Eurozone country; they still have to deal with all this shit too on top of having to fund their expenditures with taxes or debt).
 

tstorm823

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The Trump tariffs were profoundly stupid, virtually every reputable economist can tell you so,
Your definition of reputable precludes anyone who would not say exactly that. If a renowned economist that was widely respected for decades publicly made the argument for the benefits of Trump's tariffs, you would immediately categorize them as unreputable. It is actually logically impossible to appease your standards.
I think there's a sort of sniff test here. If a journalist is covering some people, and they commit a crime, should the journalist be arrested as their associate in crime? On principle, I think most people would broadly say no.

Then there's this Ku Klux Klan law. I can see why that law exists. Does anyone think it's proportionate to apply in this situation?
I do think it is appropriate to apply in this situation, certainly for the group protesting. They are on camera in Lemon's coverage saying explicitly that their intention is to confront people where they don't expect it, cause disruption, and make them uncomfortable. They went to a church service to try to make a government official uncomfortable in his private life by disrupting a federally protected exercise of rights. That is precisely the sort of behavior that law exists to deter.

Now, the question of Don Lemon does have potential gray areas, but only in as much as he's kinda dumb, and that might give him plausible deniability. If a journalist covers a bank robbery in progress that they didn't know about until it was happening, nobody would even suggest arresting the journalist. If the journalist is told in advance that there is going to be a bank robbery, and he is invited to come cover it, told to keep it a secret, and he walks into the bank with the robbers having warned nobody it was going to happen, I think the average person is going to have some strong negative opinions about him at minimum, and should his actions in covering the event serve to enable their robbery in some way, would unhesitantly charge him as an accessory to the crime.

So question 1 would be whether you think the protesters themselves were committing a crime. If not, it does not matter if he's a journalist. If you do think that they committed a crime, then he was told of a crime in advance, agreed to attend the event, kept the planned crime secret, and acted in a way as to advance their cause during the commission of the crime. Genuinely, his best defense is that he is so ignorant or delusional as to think that crashing a church service and refusing to allow it to continue is totally lawful behavior.
I think understanding things about how the economy works nudges working people in a revolutionary direction
So long as you can sneak just the right amount of untruth in...
from the point of view of the consumer, an excise tax (a tariff is a kind of excise tax) has an inflationary effect because it makes at least some goods more expensive
That's not an inflationary effect. Inflation is a holistic perspective, not a question of one good being more expensive. It's possible for a price increase in one area to drive wage increases to drive prices increasing in other areas. It is also possible for a price increase in one area to put downward pressure on prices elsewhere as people's budgets are decreased. It's also possible in the case of an increase targeted at things people don't actually need to have no effect on the value of money as a whole, as people just transfer their spending habits to an equivalent replacement. If the price increase is going into federal taxes, which we agree are not directly related to nor strictly necessary for spending, it is effectively going into a blackhole, where it cannot enable things like wage increases elsewhere to keep up with the price increases.

It's always worth noting who gets screwed by inflation in any conversation about it. It's the little guys. If everything increases in price but wages also increase in price exactly proportionately, it is largely meaningless on the face of it, it's just applying different arbitrary numbers to the same real world conditions. But when moving from one situation to the other, the proportion of money to property in your life will dictate the effect. Working class people are disproportionately money based, getting income in money and needing to maintain savings to fulfill the need for goods, and their needs are largely goods that are increasing in price. Wealthy people are disproportionately based in property and investments that will go up in value relative to money, and the contribution of actual dollar amounts to their net worth is probably more debt than liquid assets. So the inflation is effectively taking the spending power away from the workers and increasing the net worth of the wealthy.

It is genuinely comical watching people who consider themselves advocates for the poor and enemies of the capitalist hegemony advocate for government policies that will drive up inflation, often explicitly dismissing inflation as a potential outcome of their policies or even something to be concerned about. With you, I don't think that's the case. Like, in 2021 and 2022, when Democrats followed up their $2,000,000,000,000 stimulus with a $500,000,000,000 extra spending bill in an economy of very stressed and diminished supply chain, I expressed concern for the effect of that response on inflation, and I suspect you also knew what the long term outcome of that would be (and Agema blew off my concerns cause the Democrats said it would be cool, and he's just that simple). With you though, I think you'd be perfectly content with hyperinflation, as it would nudge working people in a revolutionary direction, as you say. It would just be nice if you were honest about that intention, rather than pretending that balancing the federal budget against taxation isn't meaningful in any sense.
 

Seanchaidh

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So long as you can sneak just the right amount of untruth in...
for sure, dude. totally need 'untruth' for people to want change. 🥴

That's not an inflationary effect. Inflation is a holistic perspective, not a question of one good being more expensive.
if one good is more expensive, then everything is more expensive on average. and the discussion was on Trump's tariffs. Plural. As in a lot of different things.
 

tstorm823

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if one good is more expensive, then everything is more expensive on average. and the discussion was on Trump's tariffs. Plural. As in a lot of different things.
That isn't actually true. If one good is more expensive and all else remains equal, then everything is more expensive on average. Your conclusion is only logical if that price increase, and importantly in this case the removal of money through taxation, have no effect on anything else.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Yes, I have shown you the ACLU article about ICE during Obama's terms. Then, you moved to goalposts to what has just happened very recently.
Yes, a man sleeping on the floor for 2 days is very comparable to ICE shipping people off to a foreign torture prison in contravention of international law and judicial orders.

You absolute clown.

So, it was just like the one city for like 1 year of Obama's 8 years as president? VS like most of the major cities nowadays? You wouldn't have any of this violence if cities just cooperated with federal law enforcement. As you can see from the article you posted, this wasn't a left/right issue, just do what 90% of the population wants, it's not that hard.
It was literally the first article that came up when I googled "Obama" and "sanctuary city." You could have taken literally 5 seconds to check if you were wrong before you started spouting bullshit.

The number of sanctuary cities actually grew during the Obama administration, but technically there's been formalized sanctuary cities since 1985, and some of them are in Republican states.

There's a list of sanctuary cities on Wikipedia which includes the year that they became sanctuary cities, quite a few were under Obama.


And yes, 90% of people do want immigration enforcement, they just don't want it to be done in the chaotic and intentionally cruel and violent way that the Trump administration is intent on doing it.

There's a reason that the vast majority of people aren't in support of the current ICE raids despite the majority of people being in support of immigration enforcement. It's almost like it's because the Trump administration is actively terrible at it.

And I said he probably won't get a guilty verdict but what is wrong with charging him?
You tell me, what's wrong with spuriously charging people with crimes they didn't commit and which they probably won't be found guilty of? The federal prosecutors who quit over this probably see something pretty wrong with it.

I started this discussion before that had happened. There was no reason to protest ICE when people started protesting ICE.
No, you started this discussion after ICE had already been illegally sending people to a foreign torture prison in contravention of international laws and court orders.

You started this discussion after ICE started illegally barring members of Congress from entering immigration detention facilities to prevent oversight. (This happened last year and a judge ruled just this week that yes, DHS broke the law when they refused those Congress members entry).

You started this discussion after the per capita deaths in Trump's ICE detention facilities last year was double the usual rate. (We did the math earlier in this thread.https://forums.escapistmagazine.com/threads/us-2024-presidential-election.288870/page-337#post-13365320)

You started this discussion after Alligator Alcatraz.

You started this discussion after Kavanaugh stops became a thing allowing federal agents to stop and detain people based purely on their perceived ethnicity.

There's plenty of reasons to protest ICE.
 

Agema

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Your definition of reputable precludes anyone who would not say exactly that. If a renowned economist that was widely respected for decades publicly made the argument for the benefits of Trump's tariffs, you would immediately categorize them as unreputable. It is actually logically impossible to appease your standards.
Why don't you do some actual legwork and try to find economists who think abruptly slapping massive, weirdly-calculated tariffs on your trading partners is a good idea, rather than farting out this derisory trash?

Whilst you're at it, find the biologists who think creationism (including "intelligent design") is more likely to be true than not, climate change scientists who don't think human activity is likely to be a major cause of the increase in global temperatures, and doctors who think vaccines cause autism. They're out there for sure, but overwhelmingly they are few, and even rarer for being eminent in the field.

hey are on camera in Lemon's coverage saying explicitly that their intention is to confront people where they don't expect it, cause disruption, and make them uncomfortable. They went to a church service to try to make a government official uncomfortable in his private life by disrupting a federally protected exercise of rights.
By that standard, someone heckling a politician in the street, at a rally, etc. is illegal, almost any protest is illegal, and you also may as well arrest all the media who knowingly cover any of it. That's an interesting level of protection for the state against protest and reporting you are proposing, and the fact you don't appear to have concerns about such broad application is why you are an obvious authoritarian.

Likewise there's a grey area in terms of journalists being expected to obey the law, but also respecting elements of their work and profession to reasonably investigate and report on the world around them. I think it's very telling that you come down so definitively on the side of the state repressing journalists.
 
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tstorm823

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Why don't you do some actual legwork and try to find economists who think abruptly slapping massive, weirdly-calculated tariffs on your trading partners is a good idea, rather than farting out this derisory trash?
Because I don't care. You and Phoenix can appeal to authority all you like, that's just not my thing. I don't play the "I'm right because the people who agree with me agree with me" game.
By that standard, someone heckling a politician in the street, at a rally, etc. is illegal, almost any protest is illegal, and you also may as well arrest all the media who knowingly cover any of it.
No, that law applies to "rights, privileges, immunities, and protections named in the constitution or secured by the act", that is not just literally any time and anywhere, it taking place at a church service is relevant.
 

Agema

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Because I don't care. You and Phoenix can appeal to authority all you like, that's just not my thing. I don't play the "I'm right because the people who agree with me agree with me" game.
No, indeed, you're worse than that. You are acting from an even greater and more fallacious appeal to authority, which is that you are the authority.

Phoenixmgs at least recognises that experts who might know better than him are a thing and checks some stuff out, even if he's incompetent at it. You don't think you even need to find out how things work or what people who put the time and effort into their specialism think. It's not just the arrogance of such a position, it's the laziness.
 

tstorm823

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It's not just the arrogance of such a position, it's the laziness.
Oh, it's so lazy of me to dig into the data or read the actual laws and decisions myself, it would be so much more effort to repeat whatever the Guardian told me.
 

Silvanus

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Because I don't care. You and Phoenix can appeal to authority all you like, that's just not my thing. I don't play the "I'm right because the people who agree with me agree with me" game.
This is so pathetic.

You were the one who made this accusation: that others would disregard the opinions of "reputed economists" who disagreed. You weren't just challenged to provide an authority out of the blue; you were asked to substantiate an accusation you chose to make.

And surprise, surprise! You've got nothing. But as ever, that's everyone else's fault, too.
 

tstorm823

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You were the one who made this accusation: that others would disregard the opinions of "reputed economists" who disagreed. You weren't just challenged to provide an authority out of the blue; you were asked to substantiate an accusation you chose to make.
Agema claimed that "virtually every reputable economist" can tell me the Trump tariffs are stupid. He provided no substantiation of this claim. He did no legwork. I reciprocated. I don't need to force him to spend 3 pages insisting he personally knows more about economics than Art Laffer, without a hint of irony about the accusations he throws at me, we can skip past that part and get to the meat of the argument.

We'd also end up in a pointless tangent anyway, because the likely reasons economists might call the tariffs stupid are unrelated to the impacts of tariffs as a tax, and rather more a conversation on the ramifications of decelerated global trade, with little consideration given to the situation of people just paying the tariffs.