US 2024 Presidential Election

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XsjadoBlayde

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Ok I know that anti-Semitism actually helps the Zionism project like Avi Schlaim has detailed thoroughly, and even the grandfather of the project Theodor Hurzl wrote candidly about as if it was a good thing... but come on guys.


Krystal and Saagar discuss Congress floating veteran benefits for the IDF.




Was anyone getting tired of corruption? Well at least now you finally rest eas...hah, no of course not!
 
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tstorm823

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Okay. But I stress that I am not thrilled about an invitiation to imagine reasons to explain a phenomenon when I'm skeptical the phenomenon exists in the first place. It might be a discussion, but it feels to me like a pretty pointless one.
I think it is very not pointless. You're running with the assumption that the increase in later 2020 is part of a singular continuous trend that continued into Biden's administration that would have existed independent of who won the election. But I know that rationally, you can imagine there being independent causes for a smaller rise preceding a much larger one.
I might say of Trump that perhaps what we're seeing is a load of policy that prior administrations have considered and rejected because they predicted how badly it's going to play out for them and the country.
Is it playing out bad for the country? Did prior administrations predict it playing out bad for the country, or just bad for themselves? Your evidence of failure is lowered approval, but objectively it seems to work. That's the big question you need to answer, really. If the rate of immigration is independent of administration, why does it go way down whenever Trump takes office? Is it pure coincidence that these global economic and political upheavals start as Biden enters, maintain a high level until his rhetoric changes, and then crater within a month of Trump regaining the presidency?
 

Agema

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I think it is very not pointless. You're running with the assumption that the increase in later 2020 is part of a singular continuous trend that continued into Biden's administration that would have existed independent of who won the election. But I know that rationally, you can imagine there being independent causes for a smaller rise preceding a much larger one.
Sure, I can imagine reasons. Like, maybe partisan Democrat deep state agents used the CIA mind control satellites to make thousands of migrants head to the USA in Trump's last year to discredit him in the lead up to election.

This is of course facetious, it's to illustrate a certain emptiness about such an exercise. As an intellectual process, it's arse about face. We form a hypothesis based on evidence. Why are we picking out ideas (like the Democrats send out a "vibe" that increases immigration) to explain data without evidence, whether in this specific case or to explain immigration generally. What is the evidence this "vibe" theory even exists? To what extent it might, why give it priority over established, practical reasons that are well identified?

For any event we can speculate far more reasons why something could have happened than they actual reasons that they did. The obvious danger is not just that this is a deeply flawed intellectual process, it's that this is abused by people as a vehicle to project their biases onto reality. Even worse they then elevate that speculation into assumed fact, and it becomes extraordinarily hard to shift. Of course, in extreme cases, this is what conspiracy theory is.

Is it playing out bad for the country? Did prior administrations predict it playing out bad for the country, or just bad for themselves? Your evidence of failure is lowered approval, but objectively it seems to work.
Whether it plays out badly for the country depends on a wide range of factors, many of which are more likely to be subjective preferences than objective measures. But you're in a democracy: what the people as a whole like or believe in is supposed to be significant. What is good for a party (i.e. that people continue to vote for it) should be an indirect representation of what the people like and believe in. Obviously, plenty of caveats are involved here.

That's the big question you need to answer, really. If the rate of immigration is independent of administration, why does it go way down whenever Trump takes office? Is it pure coincidence that these global economic and political upheavals start as Biden enters, maintain a high level until his rhetoric changes, and then crater within a month of Trump regaining the presidency?
Rate of immigration is not independent of administration: that's a very different claim. I am arguing immigration is affected by practical considerations not vibes, and government policy is definitely a practical consideration which can vary from one administration to the next. I am also assuming here you mean illegal immigration. Although as we can see from Trump's anti-immigration crusade, they may be rather more interlinked than you might think, and illegal immigration has been reduced in part by attacking legal immigration. No-one would argue Trump has not been very strict on immigration. The accusation many would make is too strict.

So, for instance, Trump deleted asylum. I don't doubt that this has had a substantial effect on immigration, both legal and illegal. Obvious questions about deleting asylum are a) is this legal and b) is this humane? I'm sure a lot of economic refugees abuse asylum in the hope they can sneak in, but the reality is that if you delete asylum then you make victims of genuine asylum seekers. I'd note that a major formative event behind the UN convention on refugees from the 50s is all the Jewish refugees from Germany in the 1930s that were denied entry when they tried to flee. I should need say no more. A blanket denial of asylum should weigh on the collective national conscience.
 
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BrawlMan

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While the Trump administration is the kind of clown show to actually try to stage it, i don't find it likely.

And lots of assassinations go wrong. Many wannabe assassins are amateurs.
Just for the record, trump fired the original security staff and replaced with people who either have no experience or are really bad at their job to begin with.

 

Phoenixmgs

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And again, that does not rebut anything I said or provided, and instead consists of you injecting anecdote to try and override the data so as to force your predetermined conclusion.
The US had more immigrants than the people wanted. It's not an anecdote, it happened. NYC at one point closed a school for immigrants, it's a news story, not an anecdote.
 

tstorm823

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To what extent it might, why give it priority over established, practical reasons that are well identified?
Because it's worth considering causes that coincide with effects. Your vague reference to well identified reasons are generalized answers to why migrants exist, and say little to nothing about why at that particular moment at that rate.

The implication of your emphasis on rising numbers in 2020 is that if Trump had won, the same surge would have happened anyway, and based on the data we are looking at together, I think it is genuinely obvious that the change of administration has an effect.
 

Asita

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The US had more immigrants than the people wanted. It's not an anecdote, it happened. NYC at one point closed a school for immigrants, it's a news story, not an anecdote.
No, anecdote was when you were invoking your coworker as if that invalidated the data you were supplied.

What you're doing now is complete non-sequitur invoking presumed xenophobic sentiments of "we don't want any more immigrants" as a value judgment on the existence of immigration in any sense, which - once again - does not rebut anything I said or provided, nor does it in any way support your claim about ICE being an "equal and opposite reaction" to the "open borders" policy that you attribute to the Biden administration by dismissing the enforcement figures, actions on record, and analysis of the 'what and why' behind all of them.

Again, unless you're trying to argue that any form of immigration is itself the problem, it does not support the point you're invoking it to push.
 

Burnhardt

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Does it really matter?
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already.

So in addition to his planned Ballroom and Victory Arch, no doubt to further his designs to turn Washington D.C into a further parody of Mar-a-Lago, Trump has decided that the Lincoln Memorial's Reflecting Pool is in need a refresh.

In his defence, the surface is in need of fixing to stop leaks. However, rather than do something that preserves it as is, he has decided to do it on the cheap and go with a commercial-grade material used in swimming pools in 'American Flag Blue'.


Like most non-American's I do not ever plan on visiting the US while Trump is President. By the time he goes I doubt any of us will ever want to visit.
 

Phoenixmgs

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No, anecdote was when you were invoking your coworker as if that invalidated the data you were supplied.

What you're doing now is complete non-sequitur invoking presumed xenophobic sentiments of "we don't want any more immigrants" as a value judgment on the existence of immigration in any sense, which - once again - does not rebut anything I said or provided, nor does it in any way support your claim about ICE being an "equal and opposite reaction" to the "open borders" policy that you attribute to the Biden administration by dismissing the enforcement figures, actions on record, and analysis of the 'what and why' behind all of them.

Again, unless you're trying to argue that any form of immigration is itself the problem, it does not support the point you're invoking it to push.
I showed you the increased immigration on a graph... The anecdote wasn't to prove increased immigration, it was to show that even non-political people noticed the increased immigration. I knew the election was over once some non-political person had noticed it and commented on it. Then, people were shocked Trump won again, they just couldn't read the room.

Ok, so it wasn't true, as expected. Just checking.
School was closed. Remote learning doesn't mean the school was open.
 

Asita

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I showed you the increased immigration on a graph... The anecdote wasn't to prove increased immigration, it was to show that even non-political people noticed the increased immigration. I knew the election was over once some non-political person had noticed it and commented on it. Then, people were shocked Trump won again, they just couldn't read the room.
And I told and showed you that that was cherry picked data that ignored the enforcement figures, actions on record, and analysis of the 'what and why' behind all of them in order to misrepresent Biden as having such an "open borders" policy (which is to say, lack of enforcement) that you insist that the recent actions of ICE be viewed as an nothing more than an "equal and opposite response".
 
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Silvanus

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School was closed. Remote learning doesn't mean the school was open.
School used as an emergency shelter during a dangerous storm (which is normal procedure), for less than 12 hours, while classes continue =/= "school closed for immigrants".

You fell for rage-bait misinformation again. Just use a bit more healthy scepticism next time.
 

Trunkage

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So the pushing back of the end date of the vaccine trial so that the vaccines weren't out before the election was just a coincidence and was not at all politically motivated?
Do you think that if the vaccine was ready before the election anything would have changed?

Do you not know Trump's base?