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Silvanus

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I'm not attempting to "make the narrative self-contradictory", I'm trying to make you understand that your stances are contradictory, not mine. I understand there are separate bodies, you are the one ignoring that. Your logic is "less money to FAO > cut efforts to combat screwworm > screwworm reaches America', but those efforts to combat screwworm are still ongoing, in fact increasing, in other agencies and international organizations.
That's only contradictory if we were to accept that the USDA is doing exactly what the FAO was doing. Yet we both know that's not the case.

You're incredulous about the idea that what FAO and USAID were doing might be absorbed into other agencies, even though you know 99% of the efforts already went through other agencies, that there is already a specific collaborative international organization for addressing only this issue, and that orders of magnitude more additional funding is currently being spent on this.
The efforts went through international agencies, to tackle transborder disease. Yes, i am incredulous that anyone could believe you can pull funding from an international body, put funding into a US body, and then consider all the same bases covered on an international problem.

You are convinced that screwworms wouldn't have reached the US without DOGE interfering [...]
No, not necessarily. We'll never know. What i am convinced of is that when the problem is growing and spreading, that's the worst time to hobble international efforts to tackle it.

I'm guessing you actually don't have that exhaustive list of cut USAID contracts, then?
 

tstorm823

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The efforts went through international agencies, to tackle transborder disease. Yes, i am incredulous that anyone could believe you can pull funding from an international body, put funding into a US body, and then consider all the same bases covered on an international problem.
Right, the efforts go through COPEG, the Commission for the Eradication and Prevention of Screwworm, an international organization headed by the US and Panama to combat specifically this pest in specifically this region. The FAO does many things, mostly not in the Americas; we have a commission for international cooperation on this specific thing.
I'm guessing you actually don't have that exhaustive list of cut USAID contracts, then?
Finding the published website as well as the list provided to Congress is so easy, I'm not helping you with it. They'll confirm that optional funding to the FAO was cut.
 

Silvanus

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Right, the efforts go through COPEG, the Commission for the Eradication and Prevention of Screwworm, an international organization headed by the US and Panama to combat specifically this pest in specifically this region. The FAO does many things, mostly not in the Americas; we have a commission for international cooperation on this specific thing.
Once again, i'm really not interested in your opinions on why you don't think the FAO program is worthwhile. "There are other bodies doing related (though different) things" is not under discussion.

Finding the published website as well as the list provided to Congress is so easy, I'm not helping you with it. They'll confirm that optional funding to the FAO was cut.
Well, since you won't engage: here's the list of USAID awards sent to Congress in March 2025.

As mentioned, there's no full list of everything DOGE cut. Nor is there a full list of all FAO programs terminated, since several of its lines in the list are umbrellas. But... now that's odd! The FAO seems to only appear under terminations!
 
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tstorm823

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Once again, i'm really not interested...
I understand that.

DOGE did not cause issues with new world screwworms. The trajectory of the issue is unchanged since before DOGE existed. You came in here to imply DOGE caused the issue, you have been corrected, your stubborn argument has barely a vapor remaining, whatever.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Could driving a bunch of heavy SUVs over the reflecting pool have somehow damaged it?


Naw, it's gotta be them lefty terrorists! Lock 'em up for a hundred years!
 

Silvanus

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I understand that.
Cute, but cutting the end of the sentence to give the misleading impression i don't care about our actual topic of discussion is dishonest.

DOGE did not cause issues with new world screwworms.
No, it just hobbled efforts to tackle the issue.

This is like arguing that closing a hospital didn't "cause issues with poor health", and then insisting that anyone opposing its closure is foolish because disease was spreading before it closed.
 

tstorm823

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This is like arguing that closing a hospital didn't "cause issues with poor health", and then insisting that anyone opposing its closure is foolish because disease was spreading before it closed.
And if there are hundreds of hospitals, and just that one is getting closed down by the government because of a child molestation scandal, are you going to blame the government for influenza? I don't think you want to go into analogy here...
 

Silvanus

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And if there are hundreds of hospitals and just that one is getting closed down by the government because of a child molestation scandal, are you going to blame the government for influenza? I don't think you want to go into analogy here...
I genuinely don't know how someone can write such an inane piece of drivel without being embarrassed.
 

tstorm823

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I genuinely don't know how someone can write such an inane piece of drivel without being embarrassed.
An incredibly small percentage of the total funds dedicated to an issue was removed from a particular agency for reasons totally unrelated to that particular issue... it's quite precise.

It's a shame you're carrying all that embarrassment yourself though. Just let it go, you were objectively wrong about something, I know that you know this, it'd be a huge relief to just concede.
 

Trunkage

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And if there are hundreds of hospitals, and just that one is getting closed down by the government because of a child molestation scandal, are you going to blame the government for influenza? I don't think you want to go into analogy here...
It depends. After removing the program, did the government do nothing for 16 mths and let the flu spread? Its hard to imagine any government not having a response to a hospital shutting down and should be criticised if they sat on their asses.

You also have to replace the flu with something closer to the Bubonic plague as all you are doing is pretending screwworm is not serious enough to do anything about it.... which is the actual real problem as this was DOGE's reasoning. DOGE never took it as a serious threat, even though it was at the door

Apart from the fact that the flu still has control in place even if one hospital went off line. Hospitals are the LAST line of defence. It's not the ONLY line of defense. A better analogy may be punishing people for getting Covid vaccines so the roll out is ineffective

Because your analogy lacked this fundamental problem Silvanus has with DOGE. Removing the program is only half the problem. You also have do nothing to replace the program. Rawlins is the smartest person in this adminstration and she fucked it up. They did not take the threat seriously because it was under control due to the program dealing with threats before 2025.
 

tstorm823

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Because your analogy lacked this fundamental problem Silvanus has with DOGE. Removing the program is only half the problem. You also have do nothing to replace the program. Rawlins is the smartest person in this adminstration and she fucked it up. They did not take the threat seriously because it was under control due to the program dealing with threats before 2025.
I can only conclude you've read literally none of the exchange between me and Silvanus.

There is an international organization (COPEG) dedicated to this specific thing.
The US part of combatting screwworms comes mostly through the USDA, not USAID. There are other agencies involved as well.
Both these things have been accelerating their work since at least 2024. The USDA screwworm team increased ten-fold.

The USAID part of this equation was very small, we are talking about what was included in bulk grants to the FAO, the UN's agriculture group. FAO a little over a week ago just announced a program to fight the screwworms with a 5-year budget of $1,000,000. That's $200k a year, and that's their surge funding to create a new program for this issue. The amount they spent previously was presumedly even less. As best I could find, the USDA's annual line-item for COPEG floats around $20 million, and $105 million was granted in 2024 to fund new sterile fly facilities in the US and Mexico. When my analogy suggested <1 percent of the solution was cut off, it was not an exaggeration. The money going through USAID to FAO that was ultimately dedicated to screwworm in the Americas was likely close to one person's salary. The USDA efforts are tens to hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
 

Silvanus

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An incredibly small percentage of the total funds dedicated to an issue was removed from a particular agency [...]
"There are other hospitals, and this is why defunding a hospital cannot have an effect on health".

for reasons totally unrelated to that particular issue... it's quite precise.
Yes, the fact they pulled FAO funding for unrelated, mostly spurious reasons, certainly justifies it.

objectively wrong
I mean, you have yet to identify an actual error in what I've said. You seem to have conceded that the USAID funding to the FAO's screwworm program was indeed removed, which you were quibbling and denying initially. Now the entirety of your response boils down to your opinion that it doesn't matter because other agencies got more money and you assume it wasn't much anyway.
 
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tstorm823

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"There are other hospitals, and this is why defunding a hospital cannot have an effect on health".
If they close one hospital and built 1000 new ones for the same population, calling that scaling back is wrong.
I mean, you have yet to identify an actual error in what I've said. You seem to have conceded that the USAID funding to the FAO's screwworm program was indeed removed, which you were quibbling and denying initially. Now the entirety of your response boils down to your opinion that it doesn't matter because other agencies got more money and you assume it wasn't much anyway.
Yes, the USAID grant to FAO was removed.

You have no actual evidence that FAO stopped its screwworm related operations. It was likely one person in Rome coordinating through email. Was that person laid off? Did they stop answering their emails?
You have no actual evidence that the money they would have been sent wasn't still used to fight screwworms, many cut USAID programs weren't cancelled, but rather absorbed into other agencies. They could have a guy at the USDA coordinating through email now.
There are multiple ways that role could be performed without money specifically exchanging hands through USIAD, that's not a quibble, your conclusion assumes that one grant was cut off and the FAO just set it's screwworm involvement on fire and walked away, and nobody cared to pick up the slack. That's a rather absurd assumption. Though not quite as absurd as assuming that would cause a problem that happened years before it.
 

Silvanus

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If they close one hospital and built 1000 new ones for the same population, calling that scaling back is wrong.
And if i had wings i could fly!

You have no actual evidence that FAO stopped its screwworm related operations.
Except the FAO spokesperson telling us they received termination notices after funding was withdrawn.
 

Silvanus

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What precisely do you think they stopped doing?
According to this, the funding to the FAO had supported 180 outbreak investigations in 22 countries, and capacity increases in 160 laboratories. So a termination of that work would have led to fewer investigations, fewer labs, and less monitoring than we'd have otherwise had with continued funding.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Apparently Trump doesn't know the difference between a passport and a visa.

His new passport design says "welcome, but be good." US passports are for US citizens leaving the country, not for people who are entering the country, making the message absolute nonsense.
 

tstorm823

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According to this, the funding to the FAO had supported 180 outbreak investigations in 22 countries, and capacity increases in 160 laboratories. So a termination of that work would have led to fewer investigations, fewer labs, and less monitoring than we'd have otherwise had with continued funding.
And where do you think those 22 countries and 180 outbreaks of animal-born diseases and parasites are?
 

Silvanus

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And where do you think those 22 countries and 180 outbreaks of animal-born diseases and parasites are?
I don't know, though I suppose i might be able to find out with some digging. Not very inclined when you've shown only derision for the work. I expect some are in Central and South America.

Where are you going with this? Going to try to argue again that if the USDA gets some money, it all just doesn't matter?