White Actors Giving up Long-Standing, Non-White Roles

[ObsidianJones]

New York Times Article

Being black and Hispanic, I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I can appreciate a lot of the social change that has come in the wake of George Floyd's murder being the apparent turning point that made the world face the fact that institutional racism IS a thing and can no longer go swept under the rug. Some important and necessary changes are coming, but a part of me sees changes like this as nominal at best, and condescending ate worst.

I can understand why white actors playing live-action ethnic characters can be controversial to many; I'm sure with a little effort, they could find a culturally appropriate actors, but voice actors? In comedy cartoons? Particularly these cartoons which are steeped in history of satirizing stereotypes?

Like I said, I'm torn, so I'll open the thread up to everyone to share their thoughts; maybe I'll gain some additional insight through some candid discourse.

I can see both sides. I hear people when they say this is the pendulum swinging too far in another direction. For example, when Brandy was casted as Cinderella, I felt nothing for it. I didn't see the reason then, but I remember so many people saying "What a fresh new take". Did Cinderella talk about how hard it is for a black woman in the kingdom? No? Ok, I don't see what the new take was.

However, I know so many women who felt seen through that. Who saw they could be princesses even if they weren't a blonde white lady. And that was important to them. So while I don't know if Whoopi Goldberg talked about Constable reform after the glass shoe fit, it heartens me that people did find something other of seeing themselves in live action.

But cartoons are not live-action. So it doesn't matter who is cast, right?

... except... a family member of mine worked at a Voice Over Agency. And yes, the ethnicity of potential hires came up a lot. A white voice that can put on accents were simply weighed more than a black voice that could do the same accents. And please don't think I meant a 'white sounding voice' and a 'black sounding voice'. I meant a voice from a white person and a voice from a black person. Even a 'white sounding' black person that could do a lot of accents would be weighed less than a 'white sounding' white person that could do a lot of accents.

This is something that is known.

Put it like this. We're a gaming forum, right? You ever played a Persona Game? Congratulations, you've just heard around 70 percent of all voice acting in games. Persona 3 and Persona 4 are a who's who list of heavy hitters in Voice Acting.

Now, remove that from the whole "less jobs for other people if the same voice actors are reused over and over again". That will be in its own little box. Let's put in the second I hear Johnny Yong Bosch, I'm taken out because I'm thinking about all the other characters he voiced. Yuri Lowenthal... throw a dart at a japanese rpg that was released in the last two decades and you have an 80 percent chance he voiced at least a character in it. Liam O'Brien? Who isn't Liam O'Brien?

They are talented, but it's gotten to the point that I can guess what the character is going to be like due to the voice actor they got. That ruins so much of learning about the character that it brings me out. No matter the race.

Also, RDJ's blackface in Tropic Thunder. Yea, Nay?

It was apart of the joke, lampooning method actors. The intrinsic insult that it's more important to get the caliber of the name than an actor who can do justice is the metacommentary of the joke of Hollywood.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

The only practical reason I can see for getting a voice actor of the ethnicity of the character being portrayed is if you want an authentic accent. Otherwise you're doing yourself a deservice not hiring based on the quality of their voice.

 

[Buyetyen]

Voice actors aren't seen; they're not on screen pretending to be the characters they voice; it doesn't matter.

Okay. This is mind, how does the physical presence of the actor affect the actual material? If I couldn't tell a joke about black people in person because I'm white and it would come across as being in really bad taste, does it become okay if I'm telling that same joke as a voice over for a black character?

 

[happyninja42]

The film was a comedy; the blackface was an extreme satirizing of itself and the lengths some actors go to when method acting; that's was it's purpose within the film. Now, had he done it to portray and actual black guy, if his role WAS a black guy, it would have been offensive and would never have flown.

Yeah this is my thought on that. The whole point of the blackface was to mock the Super Serious Actor behavior, of doing anything for a role for authenticity. My favorite line of that was when Stiller's character says "you people" and RDJ goes "What do you mean...YOU people?" and the one actual black guy looks at RDJ and calls him out "What do YOU mean YOU people?!" It was just so perfect.

 

[Buyetyen]

The only practical reason I can see for getting a voice actor of the ethnicity of the character being portrayed is if you want an authentic accent. Otherwise you're doing yourself a deservice not hiring based on the quality of their voice.

Or if you're trying to deal with themes of race and politics, maybe cast people from the relevant ethnicities. People forget that filmmaking and animation are collaborative arts. Actors, good ones anyway, don't just show up, read their lines, hit their marks and leave. They bring their own experiences to the role. Like, let us say, and why not, that I get hired to direct an animated piece that will feature some Native characters among the main cast. I'd probably still cast Native actors anyway for 2 reasons. First being that anything we get wrong they're more likely to call us out for. Second, you have any idea how hard it is for Native actors to get work?

 

[ObsidianJones]

Yeah this is my thought on that. The whole point of the blackface was to mock the Super Serious Actor behavior, of doing anything for a role for authenticity. My favorite line of that was when Stiller's character says "you people" and RDJ goes "What do you mean...YOU people?" and the one actual black guy looks at RDJ and calls him out "What do YOU mean YOU people?!" It was just so perfect.

I think we would all benefit from just watching the scene where this was discussed.


Because it's freaking beautiful.

 

[Palindromemordnilap]

Exactly. The voice actors aren't portraying these other ethnicities; they providing an accent.

Honestly I'd say that makes it worse. It means you're saying "haha, your accent is different to mine and thats amusing!" It's just grown up version of children doing whiny voices and saying "Thats what you sound like!"

 

[Xprimentyl]

Okay. This is mind, how does the physical presence of the actor affect the actual material? If I couldn't tell a joke about black people in person because I'm white and it would come across as being in really bad taste, does it become okay if I'm telling that same joke as a voice over for a black character?

That's nowhere near the same and you know it. Cleveland Brown is not an actual person; his voice didn't exist until the chosen white voice actor gave him one; at that point, he existed and even still, he's not real. If a part in a live action move is black, the person cast should be black as they will be seen. Equating that to telling a racial joke in person or not is a non sequitur.

 

[happyninja42]

That's nowhere near the same and you know it. Cleveland Brown is not an actual person; his voice didn't exist until the chosen white voice actor gave him one; at that point, he existed and even still, he's not real. If a part in a live action move is black, the person cast should be black as they will be seen. Equating that to telling a racial joke in person or not is a non sequitur.

Yeah but apparently the question that's coming up more is how black do they have to be? Because I've seen interviews with black actors, reacting to Key & Peele skits that addressed race, and their reaction basically boiled down to "Key and Peele aren't black enough to have any right to talk about that." I wish I could recall the video, but it was in response to their Slave Auction Block video they did. Now Key and Peele are both mixed ethnicity, I think half white/black, though I could be wrong there. And while they've talked at length about how they get shit from both sides of the divide, apparently to some, they're still not "black enough" to represent the people. So it's all a big fucking mess in my opinion.

 

[Buyetyen]

That's nowhere near the same and you know it. Cleveland Brown is not an actual person; his voice didn't exist until the chosen white voice actor gave him one; at that point, he existed and even still, he's not real. If a part in a live action move is black, the person cast should be black as they will be seen. Equating that to telling a racial joke in person or not is a non sequitur.

You don't think it's ever going to come up? You think animation is only for comedy? Can't address big issues? Or do you think voice acting is a less respectable discipline than screen acting? Give me something to work with here because right now your complaint is coming across as really shallow.

EDIT: Also, I didn't say a racist joke per se, I said a joke that would be in bad taste coming out of a white person, but more palatable coming from a black person because they're speaking from an insider's perspective rather than an outsider's. There's some overlap there, but they're not strictly speaking the same thing.

Yeah but apparently the question that's coming up more is how black do they have to be? Because I've seen interviews with black actors, reacting to Key & Peele skits that addressed race, and their reaction basically boiled down to "Key and Peele aren't black enough to have any right to talk about that." I wish I could recall the video, but it was in response to their Slave Auction Block video they did. Now Key and Peele are both mixed ethnicity, I think half white/black, though I could be wrong there. And while they've talked at length about how they get shit from both sides of the divide, apparently to some, they're still not "black enough" to represent the people. So it's all a big fucking mess in my opinion.

Kind of what I'm getting at. Everybody draws the line differently and just proclaiming, "Oh it's just cartoons," or, "Oh it's just comedy," is a really lazy dismissal.

 

[Revnak]

It’s voice acting. Why would you care? It’s like getting mad at black people in Shakespeare stage productions that aren’t Othello, or a white person playing Othello. If there’s no literal blackface, which is a problem for completely different reasons, and there isn’t actual inequality in the hiring practices, I don’t see what here is worth being upset about.

 

[Worgen]

For live action I think its fine, but for voice casting... It gets complicated since a lot of times you have a few voice actors doing a ton of rolls so... Yeah, I'm not sure how studios will approach suddenly having to get a specific color voice actor for a bit part, if it comes down to it then they would probably just make the part a white character.

 

[ObsidianJones]

It’s voice acting. Why would you care? It’s like getting mad at black people in Shakespeare stage productions that aren’t Othello, or a white person playing Othello. If there’s no literal blackface, which is a problem for completely different reasons, and there isn’t actual inequality in the hiring practices, I don’t see what here is worth being upset about.

There is actual inequality in hiring practices. White actors/White sounding voices are preferred.

Meanwhile, I'm not upset. But I've been tangentially around the business for like four years of my life. My family member had a brief friendship with the voice actor who plays Clementine from the Walking Dead. I was supposed to meet her, but she actually got whatever work she was doing at the studio done quicker than normal.

So bummed...

 

[Revnak]

There is actual inequality in hiring practices. White actors/White sounding voices are preferred.

Meanwhile, I'm not upset. But I've been tangentially around the business for like four years of my life. My family member had a brief friendship with the voice actor who plays Clementine from the Walking Dead. I was supposed to meet her, but she actually got whatever work she was doing at the studio done quicker than normal.

So bummed...

See, the racism in hiring practices and creative staff is extremely significant and that’s much more worth talking about than whether there is “digital blackface“ in the sad horse show.

 

[SilentPony]

Yeah I mean, just look at that guy who voice the dub of Vegeta. He's probably able to just live off of going to conventions and yelling OVER 9000!!!!!!!!! , make the uber-fans squee and stain themselves in glee, collect his check, and go home.

Or Steve Blum. I know he does games and other shows a lot these days, but he could just quote Cowboy Bebop at Cons and people who pay him bank just to do it.

 

[Revnak]

Or Steve Blum. I know he does games and other shows a lot these days, but he could just quote Cowboy Bebop at Cons and people who pay him bank just to do it.

Anime voice acting pays garbage comparatively since it’s typically non-union. Games are where the money is and are typically easier to do.

 

[Seanchaidh]

They'll do this and rename streets and paint murals, but they won't stop killing black folks.

 

[MrCalavera]

So, uhh, how does this exactly help with police brutality?

 

[SilentPony]

Okay. This is mind, how does the physical presence of the actor affect the actual material? If I couldn't tell a joke about black people in person because I'm white and it would come across as being in really bad taste, does it become okay if I'm telling that same joke as a voice over for a black character?

I think his point is more youre immersion in a story isn't broken based on the color of the voice actor vs their role. I dont think people watch, I dunno, Avatar and say "Nope Aang's voice isn't Asian enough, totally ruins the show" Or watch MLP and think "Why are they voiced by people and not horses?" Anime often have women voicing little boys, but we don't say "Not little boy enough"
That if the voice acting is good, the race/gender of the actor shouldn't matter.

 

[Buyetyen]

I think his point is more youre immersion in a story isn't broken based on the color of the voice actor vs their role. I dont think people watch, I dunno, Avatar and say "Nope Aang's voice isn't Asian enough, totally ruins the show" Or watch MLP and think "Why are they voiced by people and not horses?" Anime often have women voicing little boys, but we don't say "Not little boy enough"
That if the voice acting is good, the race/gender of the actor shouldn't matter.

Which is a fair point. That said, I've had conversations with people of color who are quite passionate about seeing more non-white actors getting work and don't have a lot of trust in the system to not be racist about it and... Basically, I get where they're coming from. Everybody draws the line differently and at some point we're going to have to do something about it.