White Actors Giving up Long-Standing, Non-White Roles

ObsidianJones

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Honestly, although I never wanted to be in media, a lot of my life was wrapped around it for some reason. Due to my brother wanting to be an actor and the people he hung around with, to various family members tied to music production, voice over, and the like, to different friends doing their best to get on broadway, you name it.

I've seen what you said. I've seen people realize they didn't have the talent necessary. Those are always rough times. I've seen people who have the talent, but might not have the look. If they were black, they were trying when mixed race was more the thing. If they were too light, they weren't going to be believable as the ghetto person they were trying to cast. If the women were an A cup, she couldn't be cast as the lead because the lead had to be sexy. How can a woman be sexy if she's smaller than a C?

Yeah, a friend of mine was told that to her face. They let the female casting director say it because I guess it would be harassment if the guys said that.

I put Lady Gaga because she has always, in my eyes, have been undeniably good. But her journey to superstardom has not. Her perseverance paid off. But perseverance doesn't always pay off, is my issue. That doesn't mean give up, but the sad truth is that maybe the world gave up on you for this respect.

Sticking with acting (because it's what I admittedly know most), the amount of Actors who are on the grind, paying more money than they can afford to give them any edge, and working 3 shitty jobs to go for that dream is frankly heartbreaking. And I genuinely wish all of them success. But that grind isn't necessarily always met with reward. In fact, it's rarely so.

We can just look at the Occupational Employment and Wages actors and accountants to know that comparatively so, it's objectively not close in terms of how much hard work nets you rewards between the two fields.

You go to accountant school, you pass the classes, and you get the degree. The outlook for accountants are good, and people continually ask for them. You're not guaranteed a job, but it's much more in your favor. Go to a good acting school, take your headshots, get an agent, go on auditions, take classes... and then hope. Hope that someone sees something in you. That's the subjective part. Because people who get money to find talents and try to make them into stars dumped Lady Gaga. Casting directors dumped Lady Gaga. Because they didn't see it. Because what we all know now as a world wide star looked to them as someone who couldn't make it.

That is all I'm talking about being Subjective. Because if it was a objective thing, it would be innate. It would be measurable. We would be able to pass a meter over someone's head and say "Mid range star. Two albums total.".

And your last point sums up my point perfectly. That's the subjective nature about media. What is more to some. What is just enough for others. It can not be quantified. It is a feeling that someone has that turns out to be right or wrong. That's not good or bad. It is what it is.

What is objective about this? I like her voice more than Adele's. That doesn't take away from Adele. Nor does that take away from the hundreds of people in her comment section that says she's blessed and how they feel she's a talent. They might prefer her voice. They are not wrong to do so. Sometimes, people simply like covers more. This is not a concept I created.

In fact, we've talked about this as a forum several times.

Covers that are better than or as good as the original songs

Are there song covers you prefer to the originals?

What Covers of Songs Do You Prefer Rather Than the Original

Song Covers You Prefer To The Original

Some people prefer alternative versions than the original. You're free to feel some way about that. I invite you to. That does not negate that other people have opinions.

Lastly, while he isn't my favorite, Didn't Justin Bieber become who he is by covering other artists in his youth? Feelings about it or no, this is not something rare in the Musical Industry
 

McElroy

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What is objective about this? I like her voice more than Adele's. That doesn't take away from Adele. Nor does that take away from the hundreds of people in her comment section that says she's blessed and how they feel she's a talent. They might prefer her voice. They are not wrong to do so. Sometimes, people simply like covers more. This is not a concept I created.

Some people prefer alternative versions than the original. You're free to feel some way about that. I invite you to. That does not negate that other people have opinions.
Personal preferences are all fine, but you wrote that Haley Klinkhammer's cover puts Adele "to shame" and that you don't really know why Adele is several orders of magnitude more famous and celebrated. I gave you a couple of reasons. I'll stress the fact that Haley's performance cannot put Adele's to shame. It's impossible unless you put some other merit before the performance itself. So while I won't negate your preference I do negate the incorrect impression of Adele being put to shame.
 

Buyetyen

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Oh goody, an argument about what does and does not count as a statement of personal taste! Exactly what this thread needed!
 

Buyetyen

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You want a participation award?
I would prefer that if you guys want to get this granular about this particular tangent, it might be better suited to PM. All snarking aside, this is one of those argument that there's not a lot of sense in having. Johnny above me is right, it's rather silly.
 

ObsidianJones

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Personal preferences are all fine, but you wrote that Haley Klinkhammer's cover puts Adele "to shame" and that you don't really know why Adele is several orders of magnitude more famous and celebrated. I gave you a couple of reasons. I'll stress the fact that Haley's performance cannot put Adele's to shame. It's impossible unless you put some other merit before the performance itself. So while I won't negate your preference I do negate the incorrect impression of Adele being put to shame.
Yes. And I stand by that. Because I think she is a better singer than Adele. Because her voice does more for me than Adele's. There is nothing wrong with understanding that a majority of people like a certain thing, but thinking an offshoot is better. And being curious why you see it one way as others do not.

Just like I think Tekken is a better game than Street Fighter, Chris Redd is a better comedian than Dane Cook, And Fries are better than any food imaginable. And I realize that's my opinion. Just because something outshines something else in my view does not erode the value it has to other people. I might not be able to grasp it like the majority of people do and I might never understand way. There's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think Angelia Jolie was ever as hot as everyone else said. Feel free to lust after her. I don't get it, but more importantly I do not want to deny you your feelings.

I don't think sports are really fun. Have fun watching and/or doing them. Again, I don't get it but have at.

The Big Bang Theory... Ok, I actively dislike it because of the portrayals, but I'm never going to tell someone not to watch it because I don't like it. But I'll NEVER get that.

Your reasons mean as much to me as my reasons to you. I will not discount them because that's how you feel. But they don't erode how I feel. They do not reprogram my brain to see things, hear things, and experience things the way you do. What can I personally say to you to make this song give your heart flight like it does mine? How much of the process must I have to explain to make you love this song like I do?

That's why I said up and down it's subjective. It comes from all of us. How we experience things differently and rate because of that. How we all see things, and how we will seldom be on the same page.

I voiced my feelings and no one is here to try to change yours. Likewise, come and voice your opinions about my feelings as well. I welcome it. But don't say something unmeasurable as "it" factor is Objective. Once again, Lady Gaga was signed, dropped, and rejected by many people who didn't get her. If she was objectively a star, the first person who would have saw her would have grabbed on tight for that multimillion dollar deal what was definitely coming soon.

But no, a good deal of people didn't see anything in Germanotta. And it took finally getting to the right people to make her a household name. That's why it's subjective. Because if it was intrinsic, all of those people would have seen it and acted on it the second she walked into view. Likewise, desirable talent and 'sound' is subjective. Just like who makes it and who doesn't, stating the same amount of work was put in. That is all I'm saying.
 

ObsidianJones

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I would prefer that if you guys want to get this granular about this particular tangent, it might be better suited to PM. All snarking aside, this is one of those argument that there's not a lot of sense in having. Johnny above me is right, it's rather silly.
I take a lot of the blame. I spent a lot of time justifying having an opinion that I already declared to be subjective. I'm frankly done myself. People disagree with me all you want. It takes two fools to argue, especially about opinions, and I'm quite done with it.
 

McElroy

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I take a lot of the blame. I spent a lot of time justifying having an opinion that I already declared to be subjective. I'm frankly done myself. People disagree with me all you want. It takes two fools to argue, especially about opinions, and I'm quite done with it.
Normally at this point (and before, tbh) I would've just insulted your taste and moved on, but this is a classy forum and a classy thread.

I can separate an astral ghost of myself into the Artistic Realm from where I objectively judge artistic performances. It doesn't work business-wise, of course, I'd be a millionaire if it did. And I have to draw from my own experience, which is why I can't say too much about the Screamheads' Under the Sun. It's good though.

Everyone has opinions, but some opinions are superior and reside on a higher plane of artistence.
 

Agema

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Everyone has opinions, but some opinions are superior and reside on a higher plane of artistence.
There is a sort of objectivity that can be derived from subjective opinions: essentially, sales figures. Adele and Lady Gaga have inspired tens of millions of people to buy their music, therefore they are brilliant music artists.
 

BrawlMan

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Jesus Christ, this thread got off topic. I leave after two posts, and it's a near mess. To put things on topic again, here's a video of Phil Lamarr and most of the roles he voiced.


OT: I like Adelle and Gaga well enough, but I do prefer the former over the latter between those two. Otherwise, I have a high preference for Caron Wheeler over most of the singers you've been arguing about.
 

Hawki

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There is a sort of objectivity that can be derived from subjective opinions: essentially, sales figures. Adele and Lady Gaga have inspired tens of millions of people to buy their music, therefore they are brilliant music artists.
Right. And Twilight is the best book series ever written.

I jest, I actually kind of agree with you that sales figures is arguably the most concrete measure of popularity, and arguably quality, in that we're dealing with raw numbers. On the other hand, well, to steal a quote from Yahtzee, "that which is popular is rarely good, and that which is good is rarely popular." Course there's exceptions to that though.
 
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Agema

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Right. And Twilight is the best book series ever written.
Yes, I will undoubtedly read it if ever I wash up on a deserted island with a copy and several years to kill before rescue.

On the other hand, well, to steal a quote from Yahtzee, "that which is popular is rarely good, and that which is good is rarely popular." Course there's exceptions to that though.
That is simply begging the question, by defining "good" in ways that exclude forms of quality that contribute to making things popular.
 

Gordon_4

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Right. And Twilight is the best book series ever written.

I jest, I actually kind of agree with you that sales figures is arguably the most concrete measure of popularity, and arguably quality, in that we're dealing with raw numbers. On the other hand, well, to steal a quote from Yahtzee, "that which is popular is rarely good, and that which is good is rarely popular." Course there's exceptions to that though.
I much prefer “Popularity is the slutty cousin of prestige”, I think it’s from Birdman.
 
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