Liberals, progressives and conservatives of note sign open letter to end cancel culture. (Noam Chomsky/J.K. Rowling/Gloria Steinem/David Brooks etc.)

[Gergar12]

All these link just say "thing deeply inbedded in society is bad" and do not actually frame it like "If you're in this society and interact with those bits you are a monster ."

You're literally exaggerating people positions and are acting wrongly offended at them. AOC hasn't been cancelled by any of these people and neither do meat eaters.

Your idea of die by sword sounds more like eye for an eye.

Except right-wing media tried to cancel AOC because she or one of her aides tried to eat a hamburger, and there were articles written about it, as well as articles written about her not cutting her pay for the government shutdown.

Cancel culture is the gerrymandering of politics other than gerrymandering.

And what I was saying was that if you cancel people, eventually you will be canceled as well. It happened in the french revolution as well, your not revolutionary enough so I will kill you, first t started with the royals, then it ended with one of the leaders/founders of the French Revolution. This won't end well.

You don't get what I meant. First, it's those parts of our society is wrong, then it's going to transition to if you don't boycott them it's wrong.

 

[Zeke davis]

Gergar does have the right of it - morals do shift over time. Some of those morals he lists are morals I already try and follow to some extent - I drive as little as possible, try to reduce meat, barely buy clothes, etc. We look on people of the past as being out of touch and ignorant, but people of the future are going to look on us in the same way.

On the other hand, shutting down debate isn't the best way to change hearts and minds IMO.

There's a difference between saying "Morals change and people may criticize past socties"" and "All cancelers hate people just for existing in the pas and think them monsters do ya?"
The latter is the only way their "Die by the sword" shit makes sense.

Not that it does since to be blunt "Falsely demonizing" isn't that coherent enough sin to punish like. Not everyone who does it is going to make the same leaps of logic.

Lumping all forms of bigtory together as an exaggerated and say "HOW WOULD FEEL LIKE WHEN THE FUTURE REVERSE BIGOTS COME AND GET YA?" is not the motte you think it is. It's the logic people use to cancel people under a new paint.

This is just something where you need to hate the sin not the sinner here.

 

[Zeke davis]

Except right-wing media tried to cancel AOC because she or one of her aides tried to eat a hamburger, and there were articles written about it, as well as articles written about her not cutting her pay for the government shutdown.

Cancel culture is the gerrymandering of politics other than gerrymandering.

And what I was saying was that if you cancel people, eventually you will be canceled as well. It happened in the french revolution as well, your not revolutionary enough so I will kill you, first t started with the royals, then it ended with one of the leaders/founders of the French Revolution. This won't end well.

You don't get what I meant. First, it's those parts of our society is wrong, then it's going to transition to if you don't boycott them it's wrong.

i 100% get what you're saying.
It's just unproven hyperbolic nonsense that any false demonzation must lead to this "transition". The only proof you have is failed attempts and one exceptional historical event. If the attempts failed maybe it's because no one actually cares when your crime is "You participate in society".

Almost like this argument nowadays is viewed as indigenous even among cancelers: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

 

[Gergar12]

There's a difference between saying "Morals change and people may criticize past socties"" and "All cancelers hate people just for existing in the pas and think them monsters do ya?"
The latter is the only way their "Die by the sword" shit makes sense.

Not that it does since to be blunt "Falsely demonizing" isn't that coherent enough sin to punish like. Not everyone who does it is going to make the same leaps of logic.

Lumping all forms of bigtory together as an exaggerated and say "HOW WOULD FEEL LIKE WHEN THE FUTURE REVERSE BIGOTS COME AND GET YA?" is not the motte you think it is. It's the logic people use to cancel people under a new paint.

This is just something where you need to hate the sin not the sinner here.

The problem with that is that bigotry is so abstract when it's extended to systemic racism. I do agree systemic racism needs to be fought. But firing people for even suggesting we need more MLK tactics vs Malcolm X tactics is absurd.

Also, let's agree to say the N-word, and dog whistles are bad, but what about saying something like X TV show run by people of color is poorly written or X video game has a bad story. Where do we draw the line?

And also let's say for the sake of argument that everyone who was canceled had bad intent.

What about forgiveness. Take me for example, I used to be a horrible human being, but then I matured by watching TYT a progressive TV show whose creator also did previously bad things.

Should we both have been canceled, and should I have been expelled from my school district, and TYT's Cenk Uygur blacklisted from society.

And judging from history, not one US president has been morally cleaned, yet some did do great things. As Andrew Gillum says you can't judge someone on their worst day.

 

[Revnak]

Except right-wing media tried to cancel AOC because she or one of her aides tried to eat a hamburger, and there were articles written about it, as well as articles written about her not cutting her pay for the government shutdown.

Cancel culture is the gerrymandering of politics other than gerrymandering.

And what I was saying was that if you cancel people, eventually you will be canceled as well. It happened in the french revolution as well, your not revolutionary enough so I will kill you, first t started with the royals, then it ended with one of the leaders/founders of the French Revolution. This won't end well.

You don't get what I meant. First, it's those parts of our society is wrong, then it's going to transition to if you don't boycott them it's wrong.

YES. I love shallow French Revolution takes about how Robespierre cancelled the Girondins to death. Danton and his party would’ve survived if not for French cancel culture. Yes. Excellent. I live for this.

 

[Zeke davis]

The problem with that is that bigotry is so abstract when it's extended to systemic racism. I do agree systemic racism needs to be fought. But firing people for even suggesting we need more MLK tactics vs Malcolm X tactics is absurd.

Also, let's agree to say the N-word, and dog whistles are bad, but what about saying something like X TV show run by people of color is poorly written or X video game has a bad story. Where do we draw the line?

And also let's say for the sake of argument that everyone who was canceled had bad intent.

What about forgiveness. Take me for example, I used to be a horrible human being, but then I matured by watching TYT a progressive TV show whose creator also did previously bad things.

Should we both have been canceled, and should I have been expelled from my school district, and TYT's Cenk Uygur blacklisted from society.

And judging from history, not one US president has been morally cleaned, yet some did do great things. As Andrew Gillum says you can't judge someone on their worst day.

This isn't the kind of sin that everyone who does it has the same lines in the sands. Not everyone one is going to agree on who deserves it or not.
Bari Weiss thinks supporting BDS is cancel-worthy and she fired journalists yet she is the one signatories and she will probably nod along to what you're saying.

Conflating the sin for the sinner and going fire and brimstone is just silly virtue signalling.

 

[Gergar12]

This isn't the kind of sin that everyone who does it has the same lines in the sands. Not everyone one is going to agree on who deserves it or not.
Bari Weiss thinks supporting BDS is cancel-worthy and she fired journalists yet she is the one signatories and she will probably nod along to what you're saying.

Conflating the sin for the sinner and going fire and brimstone is just silly virtue signalling.

I am no Bari Wiess I have had progressive professors, centrists professors, and even conservative professors, but I have not tried to cancelled any of them, that being stated Bari Wiess DOES cancel people, and has no leg to stand on.

But this has the potential to turn ugly, and the internet mob hasn't always proven to look at both sides, look at what happened to LGBTQ influencer James Charles for example. He got canceled, but he turns out he was telling the truth.

 

[Zeke davis]

I am no Bari Wiess I have had progressive professors, centrists professors, and even conservative professors, but I have not tried to cancelled any of them, that being stated Bari Wiess DOES cancel people, and has no leg to stand on.

But this has the potential to turn ugly, and the internet mob hasn't always proven to look at both sides, look at what happened to LGBTQ influencer James Charles for example. He got canceled, but he turns out he was telling the truth.

I'm not comparing you to Bari Weiss.

It always been ugly. The internet just made it happen quicker. What i am saying is that your rhetoric isn't conductive to solving the problem and has a good chance of becoming part of it.
People who share your lines in the sand on the particular examples you brin u[pg but still form mobs on other lines aren't going to stop. And in fact some would form counter cancel mobs which while not necessarily get anyone fired will still be hostile and hurt people making the same general errors.

 

[Buyetyen]

And future generations will likely view you as monsters for not doing so.

That is their prerogative. I'm not terribly concerned with history criticizing my blind spots because I won't be around to give a shit. I just do the best I can in the here and now, which is all we can ask of anyone. I look at the progressives of yesteryear and admire their accomplishments where they got it right and cringe but also learn from the parts where they got it wrong.

Except right-wing media tried to cancel AOC because she or one of her aides tried to eat a hamburger, and there were articles written about it, as well as articles written about her not cutting her pay for the government shutdown.

And yet she won her primary this year in a landslide and is set to go into the general election pretty strong.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Given that our current generation hasn't decided that any won who wore Slave-made cotton must be a monster i'll dismissing your claims as hyperbolic nonsense.

????? You don't think "white guilt" falls under that? Are you kidding me? Wtf do you think the people calling for "black reparations" are asking for?

 

[Buyetyen]

????? You don't think "white guilt" falls under that? Are you kidding me? Wtf do you think the people calling for "black reparations" are asking for?

There are also people who still fly the Confederate battle flag and want Confederate participation trophies to remain in place.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

There are also people who still fly the Confederate battle flag and want Confederate participation trophies to remain in place.

Oh yes, all white people are horrible for what a subset of the race are doing. That sounds like racism doesn't it?

 

[Revnak]

????? You don't think "white guilt" falls under that? Are you kidding me? Wtf do you think the people calling for "black reparations" are asking for?

Money. They’re asking for money.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Money. They’re asking for money.

They're asking us to pay them money yes, but they expect white people to give them money for their guilt of what another generation did.

 

[Jarrito3002]

They're asking us to pay them money yes, but they expect white people to give them money for their guilt of what another generation did.

I am pretty sure that is to come from the government. I mean walking up to some house and going hey former slave owner grandkid give me 50 bucks would be hilarious is not how that plays out.

 

[Revnak]

They're asking us to pay them money yes, but they expect white people to give them money for their guilt of what another generation did.

Nah, it’s for their ancestors unpaid labor and how they’ve historically been barred from the middle class due to various factors like redlining. It’s honestly neither based on guilt or redistribution, it’s a project to help develop a black middle class.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I am pretty sure that is to come from the government. I mean walking up to some house and going hey former slave owner grandkid give me 50 bucks would be hilarious is not how that plays out.

Where does the government get its money?

Nah, it’s for their ancestors unpaid labor and how they’ve historically been barred from the middle class due to various factors like redlining. It’s honestly neither based on guilt or redistribution, it’s a project to help develop a black middle class.

A black middle class already exists.

 

[Revnak]

A black middle class already exists.

Statistically speaking, not really. Median black American wealth is a tenth that of white non-Hispanic Americans.
Edit- I use wealth rather than income for two reasons, one philosophical and one contextual. Philosophically, I don’t think a definition of middle class that ignores property ownership is in any way useful. Middle class folk own a house. Period. Contextually, reparations are typically an attempt to change the amount of wealth held by the average black American, not to bring them to income parity, so focusing on income seems foolish.

 

[Buyetyen]

Oh yes, all white people are horrible for what a subset of the race are doing. That sounds like racism doesn't it?

You'll note that I didn't actually say that, just made the point that there are people in this day and age still trying re-litigate the Civil War and pretending they're not there is less than helpful.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Statistically speaking, not really. Median black American wealth is a tenth that of white non-Hispanic Americans.
Edit- I use wealth rather than income for two reasons, one philosophical and one contextual. Philosophically, I don’t think a definition of middle class that ignores property ownership is in any way useful. Middle class folk own a house. Period. Contextually, reparations are typically an attempt to change the amount of wealth held by the average black American, not to bring them to income parity, so focusing on income seems foolish.

We're not talking about a median of black people as a whole, we're talking about whether black people exist in the middle class and they do. You said they were bared from the middle class but they aren't because middle class blacks exist. If you want to argue that not enough of them exist in the middle class, then that's a different argument.

You'll note that I didn't actually say that, just made the point that there are people in this day and age still trying re-litigate the Civil War and pretending they're not there is less than helpful.

And that's something I wasn't arguing for so I don't know why you brought it up.