How Problematic is "All Lives Matter?"

[ObsidianJones]

Maybe racism, past and/or present, is responsible for poverty, but BLM is clearly not the right movement to solve that problem. They'd have to rebrand and refocus around, I don't know, creating jobs and strengthening economies.

Who said it was there to solve any of these problems? It's a protest group. To point a light in the darkness of this issue where a lot of people refused to look because of their biases and/or their lack of comfortability with the issue... It's done that. It continues to do that. We talk about it often. Success.

It is what it is. I have been abused by cops and I'm not black.
I have Italian and Irish friends who have been abused by cops.
Reducing excessive force is a problem that everyone can get behind until one polarizes the issue and make sweeping generalizations about whole identifiable demographic groups.
In a radical egalitarian sense, one could argue there is a problem. If, say, Japanese Americans commit 1/2 as much crime as white American, and are 1/2 as likely to be shot, from a radical egalitarian point of view, there should be no identifiable differences between identifiable demographic groups. If white people are committing twice the crime as the Japanese Americans, something is de facto wrong, even if not dejure. But, I think we would impose more injustice on the world trying to be radical egalitarians. Seeking fairness can work, be just, but is a lot harder to define and requires a ton of work.
You write of generations not being heard. But cops wear body cams now. Cops, like the ones in the Fruitville station homicide are going to prison.
These kinds of results come from hard work. And there is no utopia coming. There will ALWAYS be hard work to do. Identifying wrongful behavior. Documenting and recording it. Following up with it.
I've heard a lawyer complaining the BLM is making his work identifying and prosecuting bad cops harder as they are hardening public opinion against prosecuting cops. So much of making things better revolves around image problems. To say the floggings will continue until morale improves is not going to be productive. Yelling that white people need to get used to their new reality as they are shamed into publicly washing black people's feet is an image problem.
And everything I just wrote comes before a more important fact: the danger that cops pose to black people is negligible compared to much more vital issues. It's a distraction, bringing those not part of the movement to ask, "what is this really all about." With BLM leaders openly stating that they are Marxists it appears that this movement is not about justice or making things better. It's about useful idiots thinking they've found a wedge issue with which to tear down a great country and replace it with some Communist Utopia. Which enough US citizens, at least at this time, know will not happen. Maybe, at best, we'll be like the former U.S.S.R? They torture murdered millions of people, including any relatives I might have had in the Ukraine at the time. I won't sign on to something like that happening here to my family.

If you want to continue to think the struggle exemplified by Black Lives Matter is about blaming of white people, fine. Then we will disagree and there are no other words to be had. We all see that there are a ton of white people who understand the issues. If you don't or will not, I understand that as well.

I can't speak on what you've heard about that Lawyer. What I can do is show you that Representatives are starting to work with Legislature, the Community, and Representatives of Black Lives Matter to try to bridge that gap between policing and the community.

On a personal level, and I try to not sink to this, but the gall of telling a group of people what their dangers are is staggering. I want to get into this more but I'm truly afraid I'm going to lose my calm.

Suffice to say, we are well aware of the dangers poised against us. The world for blacks will not be solved if cops were better trained and not subjugated to a stupid quota system. Education, Poverty, B... I mean, you must have seen me list these things ad nauseum on the Religion and Politics and then the Current Events forum too many times to count. Just like if we solve the problem of officers using the badge to commit any malfeasance from sexual harassments towards women to rape... that won't solve all of the problems plaguing women.

That doesn't mean not to try. That doesn't mean not to focus on it. Solve that thing. Great, now move on to the next. We all get that concept. That's how we problem solve.

And I am sorry that you were abused by police officers. I have been as well. My father, my brother. My cousins. My uncles. My aunts. I'd be hard pressed to find a family member who has never had damaging experiences with police officers. But it is what it is is the absolute enemy. It is regressionist thinking that obviously a great deal of the population is tired of accepting. There are white, black, asian, latino, straight, gay, male, female, trans, and fluid souls who are tired of how 'it' is. And are going to do something about it.

If talking was enough to have changes enacted, I think we would have all preferred that. I know I would have. It is how I wanted to believe the world worked: Through reason. But it doesn't. And because of that, I believe I speak for a lot of people when I find it so stifling and purposefully limiting when people ask us to be reasonable when they allow barbaric treatment of fellow citizens due to feeling comfortable in their inertia.

And on a human note, I personally don't care if you're white. Nor do I care if Houseman is. Nor would I say a lot of members of BLM. You can feel clear in your conscious.

 

[Houseman]

Who said it was there to solve any of these problems? It's a protest group. To point a light in the darkness of this issue where a lot of people refused to look because of their biases and/or their lack of comfortability with the issue... It's done that. It continues to do that. We talk about it often. Success.

Well, sure, mission accomplished. It points a light in the darkness. At what, exactly? A flashlight, pointing up at the sky, doesn't help anybody. A light illuminating a trail that leads off a cliff doesn't help anybody either. Setting the wilderness on fire might illuminate everything, but it'll surely do more harm than good.

By having "black" in the title, a narrative is automatically created that this is about race, not poverty. Everybody is already looking in a certain direction. If that's the wrong direction, then it's just a distraction. The people benefiting from all these "useful idiots" looking in the wrong direction are applauding and egging you on as you fight amongst yourselves.

Misguided action is worse than no action at all. Not success. Failure. Worse than failure, self-sabotage.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Well, sure, mission accomplished. It points a light in the darkness. At what, exactly? A flashlight, pointing up at the sky, doesn't help anybody. A light illuminating a trail that leads off a cliff doesn't help anybody either. Setting the wilderness on fire might illuminate everything, but it'll surely do more harm than good.

By having "black" in the title, a narrative is automatically created that this is about race, not poverty. Everybody is already looking in a certain direction. If that's the wrong direction, then it's just a distraction. The people benefiting from all these "useful idiots" looking in the wrong direction are applauding and egging you on as you fight amongst yourselves.

Misguided action is worse than no action at all. Not success. Failure. Worse than failure, self-sabotage.

I literally posted the reforms that are happening now due to this in my last post.

But fine.

House passes sweeping police reform bill, Human Rights Council calls on top UN rights official to take action on racist violence, Mass. Senate Approves Policing Reform After Overnight Session, Update on NY State Police Reform Legislation, California attempts towards police reform, Texas Police Reform Bills, Virgina holding forums to speak about what reforms need to be passed, too many to list. Most of the united states are passing or looking to pass some sort of police reform bill.

It's very, very telling that almost all states came to the same conclusions almost instantaneously. That too much power was afford to police officers with no accountability. And that has to change.

And yes, this is just one part of an overall issue. But I personally would much rather not be scared to death of police officers. Many people agree.

The difference here, using your analogy, is that instead of a mini flashlight trying to light up the woods, we're using a series of massive flood lights. And others are yelling and carrying on that there is too much energy, it might spark and set the woods up.

 

[Houseman]

I literally posted the reforms that are happening now due to this in my last post.

Yeah, police reform. Not wealth inequality. Not poverty. A symptom. Not the real problem.

The police aren't the problem. They're a symptom. Like I said, poverty leads to crime. Crime leads to higher police activity. Higher police activity leads to more deaths. Solve the root problem, not the symptom.

All these supposed reforms are great, but they won't solve the real problem. Even if the police are "reformed", blacks will still be over-represented in fatality statistics and in jails. Blacks will still be overrepresented in crime rates. Even if the number of police fatalities are lowered, there will still be another George Floyd, just based off of probability alone. The more entries you have, the more likely it is that you'll have a winning ticket. It's mathematically certain.

But I personally would much rather not be scared to death of police officers

You still will be. Because the statistics won't change, because the real problem won't be solved.

 

[gorfias]

Who said it was there to solve any of these problems? It's a protest group. To point a light in the darkness of this issue where a lot of people refused to look because of their biases and/or their lack of comfortability with the issue... It's done that. It continues to do that. We talk about it often. Success.



If you want to continue to think the struggle exemplified by Black Lives Matter is about blaming of white people, fine. Then we will disagree and there are no other words to be had. We all see that there are a ton of white people who understand the issues. If you don't or will not, I understand that as well.

I can't speak on what you've heard about that Lawyer. What I can do is show you that Representatives are starting to work with Legislature, the Community, and Representatives of Black Lives Matter to try to bridge that gap between policing and the community.

On a personal level, and I try to not sink to this, but the gall of telling a group of people what their dangers are is staggering. I want to get into this more but I'm truly afraid I'm going to lose my calm.

Suffice to say, we are well aware of the dangers poised against us. The world for blacks will not be solved if cops were better trained and not subjugated to a stupid quota system. Education, Poverty, B... I mean, you must have seen me list these things ad nauseum on the Religion and Politics and then the Current Events forum too many times to count. Just like if we solve the problem of officers using the badge to commit any malfeasance from sexual harassments towards women to rape... that won't solve all of the problems plaguing women.

That doesn't mean not to try. That doesn't mean not to focus on it. Solve that thing. Great, now move on to the next. We all get that concept. That's how we problem solve.

And I am sorry that you were abused by police officers. I have been as well. My father, my brother. My cousins. My uncles. My aunts. I'd be hard pressed to find a family member who has never had damaging experiences with police officers. But it is what it is is the absolute enemy. It is regressionist thinking that obviously a great deal of the population is tired of accepting. There are white, black, asian, latino, straight, gay, male, female, trans, and fluid souls who are tired of how 'it' is. And are going to do something about it.

If talking was enough to have changes enacted, I think we would have all preferred that. I know I would have. It is how I wanted to believe the world worked: Through reason. But it doesn't. And because of that, I believe I speak for a lot of people when I find it so stifling and purposefully limiting when people ask us to be reasonable when they allow barbaric treatment of fellow citizens due to feeling comfortable in their inertia.

And on a human note, I personally don't care if you're white. Nor do I care if Houseman is. Nor would I say a lot of members of BLM. You can feel clear in your conscious.

I think you kind of write what I'm saying. You write, "There are white, black, asian, latino, straight, gay, male, female, trans, and fluid souls who are tired of how 'it' is. And are going to do something about it." Exactly. Why did this become racially polarized when wanting a greater professionalism and accountability in the police is a universal? (Not to disrespect them. They do a hard job under some crazy conditions. But when an unarmed father of two comes out on his front porch is "swatted" and he comes out asking what is going on, and a cop shoots him dead just in case... the work has to be done to see that the officer that did that pays for what he did.)

So my first response had to do with someone saying that if you say, "all lives matter" than, to paraphrase, you are trying to deflect from the issues. I write again, that is not so. I am aggravated that a universal concern became polarized and write it should not have.

You write that some legislatures are coming around to effect real change in positive ways. Well, we can hope for good things. Body cams. Professionalism. Training and more. And almost more than anything: holding cops accountable when they do wrong.

Phew. Too much politics for now. Time to geek out and play some "tell tale Batman".

 

[Hawki]

Phew. Too much politics for now. Time to geek out and play some "tell tale Batman".

This on a thread that details with police brutality, in a universe that deals with police corruption?

Bad mojo man.

 

[gorfias]

This on a thread that details with police brutality, in a universe that deals with police corruption?

Bad mojo man.

Oops, that's right. Super heroes are to be vilified as they are too much like cops... that are to be vilified. *sarcasm*.

Yeah. Bad mojo.

 

[Hawki]

Oops, that's right. Super heroes are to be vilified as they are too much like cops... that are to be vilified. *sarcasm*.

You...do realize I was being sarcastic myself, right?

 

[gorfias]

You...do realize I was being sarcastic myself, right?

sometimes, I just think we need to lighten up and shift gears. Apologies if that is what you were trying to do. PS: I do regret that sarcasm is so difficult to get across in threads. Just a thing.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Yeah, police reform. Not wealth inequality. Not poverty. A symptom. Not the real problem.

The police aren't the problem. They're a symptom. Like I said, poverty leads to crime. Crime leads to higher police activity. Higher police activity leads to more deaths. Solve the root problem, not the symptom.

All these supposed reforms are great, but they won't solve the real problem. Even if the police are "reformed", blacks will still be over-represented in fatality statistics and in jails. Blacks will still be overrepresented in crime rates. Even if the number of police fatalities are lowered, there will still be another George Floyd, just based off of probability alone. The more entries you have, the more likely it is that you'll have a winning ticket. It's mathematically certain.

Rape is an expression of power, dominance, and very rarely, actual sexual desire for the pain of others.

When we call for safety of women in campuses, we do not say "Wait, wait. Can we talk to the men first and go through lengthy psychology sessions to solve their root issue that causes these rapes?"

It would be beneficial to do so, without a doubt. Men need more positive outlets to quell a lot of what's going through our minds. But on the subject of rape and women being brutalized, we don't try to change the topic to what men are going through. That is step 2, 3, and/or 4. Step 1 is the protection of women. Making sure there are locks on the bathrooms. Installing cameras in alley ways, behind the buildings, and whatever. More campus security. Safe Cabs Home.

The immediate safety of the population at risk must be guaranteed before any other step. Ironically enough, that's standard Police/Military procedure.

I've said this a number of times. To you directly. This does not solve the underlying issue. But what it will do is assure that more people will be around to that eventual day.

I think you kind of write what I'm saying. You write, "There are white, black, asian, latino, straight, gay, male, female, trans, and fluid souls who are tired of how 'it' is. And are going to do something about it." Exactly. Why did this become racially polarized when wanting a greater professionalism and accountability in the police is a universal? (Not to disrespect them. They do a hard job under some crazy conditions. But when an unarmed father of two comes out on his front porch is "swatted" and he comes out asking what is going on, and a cop shoots him dead just in case... the work has to be done to see that the officer that did that pays for what he did.)

So my first response had to do with someone saying that if you say, "all lives matter" than, to paraphrase, you are trying to deflect from the issues. I write again, that is not so. I am aggravated that a universal concern became polarized and write it should not have.

You write that some legislatures are coming around to effect real change in positive ways. Well, we can hope for good things. Body cams. Professionalism. Training and more. And almost more than anything: holding cops accountable when they do wrong.

Phew. Too much politics for now. Time to geek out and play some "tell tale Batman".

Why did this become so racially polarized? I've been on this planet since the 1980's.

When I was growing up, when minorities spoke of what happened in the ghetto with the police, half the population knew about it and didn't care and/or enjoyed it. And the other half didn't believe it.

There wasn't the amount of cameras and stuff like there is now. All people had was their word. And no one believed anyone other than cops. Rodney King, Abner Louima, Amadouo Diallo. we all know the drill.

But there are a number of incidents that aren't recorded. A number of false arrests that only a fraction of them are coming out today. But the word of a little no one like me versus a Detective like Louis Scarcella meant I was probably just going to jail after getting tuned up. Or dead. Who knows.

But the issue is that these things are known. They are seen. They were video taped, it was found that 'police acted within their scope of practice' to shoot a man 41 times when he was just trying to show identification. This is seen and we talk about it. And we're always told "Oh, it's not like that at all. Here, look at it my way. You'll see it's ok".

"Just act accordingly. That will increase your chances".

One of our fellow forum members said that to me just recently.

It is racially polarized because it was made so. We talked, we begged, we showed, we pleaded, and now we are here.

We agree on one thing. This should not have gone down this route. But it has due to compliancy. And the amount of people who try to keep people from talking up to continue that compliancy. I will not be silent while these things happen any more.

 

[Houseman]

Rape is an expression of power, dominance, and very rarely, actual sexual desire for the pain of others.

When we call for safety of women in campuses, we do not say "Wait, wait. Can we talk to the men first and go through lengthy psychology sessions to solve their root issue that causes these rapes?"

Isn't that exactly what "Teach men not to rape" is about?

So it seems, at the very least, that people actually do want this to happen.
One university, Boston University, has mandatory "sexual misconduct prevention training" for all students.

So it seems like there's a movement to actually solve the underlying problems, because people have found that A) it isn't being addressed, and B) addressing the symptoms isn't a long-term solution.

This does not solve the underlying issue. But what it will do is assure that more people will be around to that eventual day.

Sure, as long as it doesn't backfire and create MORE racism, and as long as people can get over this distraction long enough to treat the REAL issue before it kills us all.
If all that sounds like acceptable odds to you, then fair enough.

 

[Jarrito3002]

Isn't that exactly what "Teach men not to rape" is about?

So it seems, at the very least, that people actually do want this to happen.
One university, Boston University, has mandatory "sexual misconduct prevention training" for all students.

So it seems like there's a movement to actually solve the underlying problems, because people have found that A) it isn't being addressed, and B) addressing the symptoms isn't a long-term solution.



Sure, as long as it doesn't backfire and create MORE racism, and as long as people can get over this distraction long enough to treat the REAL issue before it kills us all.
If all that sounds like acceptable odds to you, then fair enough.

If BLM trying to address police brutality some how cause more racism because way too many people see this as a zero sum gain that problem is with those peoples mindset.

Nothing stops any other race or ethnicity starting their similar movement to better deal with the intrinsicity of their communities and come together for a common cause than asking a single grass root entity to take on more than what it can.

If this fear mongering dramatics of "kill us all" is going to happen it is not because a minority had the audacity to speak up about their mistreatment of the police that says more about society than this movement ever could.

 

[Houseman]

If this fear mongering dramatics of "kill us all"

The fear-mongering dramatics is treating the police as the enemy. Fear-mongering dramatics is making it about race. Fear-mongering dramatics is focusing a symptom and treating it as though it were the root cause.

Kind of like how the TSA is fear-mongering dramatics.

It's a false enemy. It's theater. It can't get more "dramatic" than that.

 

[Saint of M]

The next step in the movement, I think would be to add other ethnic groups to their protests, or take the all lives banner as their own and see how their critics react.

I know in the case of Cesar Chavez when he fought for farm worker rights, he started off mostly with Mexicans, however added Filipinos to the mix as they too had been going through crap by their employers.

To answer an earlier question, no I don't think focusing on Black Lives IS racist. If someone has a bunch of health problems, and a cardiologist is dealing with the heart problems associated with smoking doesn't mean they are ignoring the issues with the lungs, throat, dental, or something I am surprised doesn't come up more often, impotence associated with tobacco products.

Its just something they are better experienced with so are dealing with that.

 

[Gordon_4]

The fear-mongering dramatics is treating the police as the enemy. Fear-mongering dramatics is making it about race. Fear-mongering dramatics is focusing a symptom and treating it as though it were the root cause.

Kind of like how the TSA is fear-mongering dramatics.

It's a false enemy. It's theater. It can't get more "dramatic" than that.

I remember it being mentioned that American Police are not obliged to protect people. And you know what, I think that’s a fundamentally wrong headed position. The police don’t see a citizenry to be kept from harm, but to be kept in line. And of course there’s the attitude; that their badge puts them above the citizenry because they have powers but they neglect to exercise the solemn responsibility that those powers represent.

“The police are the public, and the public are the police”.
—Sir Robert Peel

So perhaps as part of this much needed police reform, they should keep a copy of Peel’s Principals of Policing handy. Or if that proves too wordy, the three Prime Directives from Robocop.

 

[gorfias]

Rape is an expression of power, dominance, and very rarely, actual sexual desire for the pain of others.

When we call for safety of women in campuses, we do not say "Wait, wait. Can we talk to the men first and go through lengthy psychology sessions to solve their root issue that causes these rapes?"

It would be beneficial to do so, without a doubt. Men need more positive outlets to quell a lot of what's going through our minds. But on the subject of rape and women being brutalized, we don't try to change the topic to what men are going through. That is step 2, 3, and/or 4. Step 1 is the protection of women. Making sure there are locks on the bathrooms. Installing cameras in alley ways, behind the buildings, and whatever. More campus security. Safe Cabs Home.

The immediate safety of the population at risk must be guaranteed before any other step. Ironically enough, that's standard Police/Military procedure.

I've said this a number of times. To you directly. This does not solve the underlying issue. But what it will do is assure that more people will be around to that eventual day.



Why did this become so racially polarized? I've been on this planet since the 1980's.

When I was growing up, when minorities spoke of what happened in the ghetto with the police, half the population knew about it and didn't care and/or enjoyed it. And the other half didn't believe it.

There wasn't the amount of cameras and stuff like there is now. All people had was their word. And no one believed anyone other than cops. Rodney King, Abner Louima, Amadouo Diallo. we all know the drill.

But there are a number of incidents that aren't recorded. A number of false arrests that only a fraction of them are coming out today. But the word of a little no one like me versus a Detective like Louis Scarcella meant I was probably just going to jail after getting tuned up. Or dead. Who knows.

But the issue is that these things are known. They are seen. They were video taped, it was found that 'police acted within their scope of practice' to shoot a man 41 times when he was just trying to show identification. This is seen and we talk about it. And we're always told "Oh, it's not like that at all. Here, look at it my way. You'll see it's ok".

"Just act accordingly. That will increase your chances".

One of our fellow forum members said that to me just recently.

It is racially polarized because it was made so. We talked, we begged, we showed, we pleaded, and now we are here.

We agree on one thing. This should not have gone down this route. But it has due to compliancy. And the amount of people who try to keep people from talking up to continue that compliancy. I will not be silent while these things happen any more.

You write, "It is racially polarized because it was made so."

The stats I keep reading tell me yes, unarmed black people are more likely to get shot and killed on a per capita basis than, say, South Korean American people (who also supposedly make more money than white Americans). But the difference in those numbers have a lot of factors way beyond race so that this never should have been a race issue. And writing that can get one labeled a "white supremacist" even though technically, I'm not even white. And neither are South Korean Americans.

You could write that this is a gender issue. Would the police have just shot an innocent unarmed mother of two as they did in the case I reference above? The stats suggest not.

How about class? Yup. They're more likely to shoot poor people than rich. And Black Americans are more likely to be poor than other identifiable demographic groups. But, I write, there are good and fair things that can and are being done to reduce income disparity. And more can and should be done. But Marxism, which is what BLM is accused of being, especially when their leaders tell us that they are "trained Marxists" is not the way. The amount of blood and failure of that ideology is staggering. I honestly think the people that started BLM did so for purposes of polarizing people rather than seeking justice and a better society.

So, "All Lives Matter". Now, without hurling insults, let's work together to make a better, fairer society.

 

[Silvanus]

So, "All Lives Matter". Now, without hurling insults, let's work together to make a better, fairer society.

I find it quite stunning that you can unironically write "without hurling insults", immediately following a paragraph full of accusation and insult.

 

[gorfias]

I find it quite stunning that you can unironically write "without hurling insults", immediately following a paragraph full of accusation and insult.

I'm sure I wrote nothing as unfair and polarizing as calling anyone that disagrees with me, regardless of race, a "white supremacist".

 

[Silvanus]

I'm sure I wrote nothing as unfair and polarizing as calling anyone that disagrees with me, regardless of race, a "white supremacist".

Way to miss the point.

If you actually want to "work together", this isn't the way to go about it.

 

[gorfias]

Way to miss the point.

If you actually want to "work together", this isn't the way to go about it.

As I've written, I disagree with your apparent position. When there is a unifying issue (reducing police abuse and excessive force), being polarizing isn't a good idea.