Bernie/Biden task force presents suggestions

Eacaraxe

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You're relying on conventional logic based on a presumption of reasonable times and rational actors, that doesn't account for post-2016 electoral demographics research. My entire point has been underlined with the argument national Democrats do not have competent actors at the helm, the party is not behaving rationally, and these are not reasonable times.

Conventional logic is parties either win swing voters or turn out the base to win a Presidential election. It's what I was taught in college, and I'm sure that's what you were taught in comparative politics too because that's what everybody is taught. It's also no longer true, and stubbornly insisting by playing by convention is going to cost elections. Self-identified "moderates" are consistent Democratic voters regardless of candidate, independents have no ideological consistency that can be tapped to deliver a bloc of them to sway an election, and elections are plain and simply dictated by turnout by party identification. That's the natural consequence of pushing political polarization to the highest level it's been since the Civil War, and to the point party affiliation is now a social identity on par with race and religion.

Relevant to 2020, Democrats are making a play for two voter groups that do not exist: aforementioned "moderates" who are in fact Democratic voters, and "never Trump Republicans". Trump's support among self-identified Republicans and likely Republican voters is still in the high 90's. These "never Trump Republicans" are a pack of disingenuous, former Bush administration, grifters who are trying their damn hardest to pull the Overton window right while making a tidy profit off donors and the news media. If you pay attention, you'll notice these "fine" men and women don't actually oppose Trump policy, they oppose Trump honesty about Trump policy -- the only time in the past four years they've had a substantive policy break from the fat bastard was the time he didn't start WWIII with Iran.

The closest you'll find in the electorate are people who might stay home, but they're not turning out for Biden. Big "might", with high-90% approval rates and a bone to pick over impeachment. And to tilt at those windmills, Democrats are endangering turnout on their left flank. That this was the strategy in 2016 and we're currently not discussing Hillary's impending re-election should tell you, right here and now, about the rationality of that strategy and the sanity of repeating it.

Now, a rhetorical question: which was the highest turnout year in terms of percentage of VAP since 1968, and who won?
 
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Gergar12

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I'll see that and raise this,


Honestly one of the funniest and satisfactory seven minutes of video I've seen in a long time.
I love Stephen Colbert's logic if republicans kill foreigners it's bad if democrats do it's good. I didn't see him say anything about it when Clinton was on his show.

Now onto Rick Wilson. Even if for the most part I am against torture I genuinely hope there is an afterlife where Iraqi Children do to him what he did to them.
 

Trunkage

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You're relying on conventional logic based on a presumption of reasonable times and rational actors, that doesn't account for post-2016 electoral demographics research. My entire point has been underlined with the argument national Democrats do not have competent actors at the helm, the party is not behaving rationally, and these are not reasonable times.

Conventional logic is parties either win swing voters or turn out the base to win a Presidential election. It's what I was taught in college, and I'm sure that's what you were taught in comparative politics too because that's what everybody is taught. It's also no longer true, and stubbornly insisting by playing by convention is going to cost elections. Self-identified "moderates" are consistent Democratic voters regardless of candidate, independents have no ideological consistency that can be tapped to deliver a bloc of them to sway an election, and elections are plain and simply dictated by turnout by party identification. That's the natural consequence of pushing political polarization to the highest level it's been since the Civil War, and to the point party affiliation is now a social identity on par with race and religion.

Relevant to 2020, Democrats are making a play for two voter groups that do not exist: aforementioned "moderates" who are in fact Democratic voters, and "never Trump Republicans". Trump's support among self-identified Republicans and likely Republican voters is still in the high 90's. These "never Trump Republicans" are a pack of disingenuous, former Bush administration, grifters who are trying their damn hardest to pull the Overton window right while making a tidy profit off donors and the news media. If you pay attention, you'll notice these "fine" men and women don't actually oppose Trump policy, they oppose Trump honesty about Trump policy -- the only time in the past four years they've had a substantive policy break from the fat bastard was the time he didn't start WWIII with Iran.

The closest you'll find in the electorate are people who might stay home, but they're not turning out for Biden. Big "might", with high-90% approval rates and a bone to pick over impeachment. And to tilt at those windmills, Democrats are endangering turnout on their left flank. That this was the strategy in 2016 and we're currently not discussing Hillary's impending re-election should tell you, right here and now, about the rationality of that strategy and the sanity of repeating it.
1. Yeah, way too many people think the Dems, or the GOP, are rational. That’s a really bad assumption
2. I would still contest that the Civil Rights Era had more partisanship. But a lot of it was internal, not just between the parties. You may count that as different
3. I may also point to Limbaugh time, as he attacked (and destroyed) many Dems and any Republicans that disagreed with him. He drove a lot of Clinton’s impeachment so he almost got a president too. Think of the Canceller of today but with power. This is still the time of Reagan who may still be more fascist than Trump
4. Another time would be McCarthyism. You know, that time when Canceller were actually able to cancel people directly instead of hoping companies will do it on their behalf like today. But you can claim that it was only really one side partisanship
5. I don’t know why the Dems are so insistent on trying to lose. They don’t have much self awareness or preservation. Their only saving grace is that the Republicans tend to screw up bigger
 

Avnger

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You're relying on conventional logic based on a presumption of reasonable times and rational actors, that doesn't account for post-2016 electoral demographics research. My entire point has been underlined with the argument national Democrats do not have competent actors at the helm, the party is not behaving rationally, and these are not reasonable times.

Conventional logic is parties either win swing voters or turn out the base to win a Presidential election. It's what I was taught in college, and I'm sure that's what you were taught in comparative politics too because that's what everybody is taught. It's also no longer true, and stubbornly insisting by playing by convention is going to cost elections. Self-identified "moderates" are consistent Democratic voters regardless of candidate, independents have no ideological consistency that can be tapped to deliver a bloc of them to sway an election, and elections are plain and simply dictated by turnout by party identification. That's the natural consequence of pushing political polarization to the highest level it's been since the Civil War, and to the point party affiliation is now a social identity on par with race and religion.

Relevant to 2020, Democrats are making a play for two voter groups that do not exist: aforementioned "moderates" who are in fact Democratic voters, and "never Trump Republicans". Trump's support among self-identified Republicans and likely Republican voters is still in the high 90's. These "never Trump Republicans" are a pack of disingenuous, former Bush administration, grifters who are trying their damn hardest to pull the Overton window right while making a tidy profit off donors and the news media. If you pay attention, you'll notice these "fine" men and women don't actually oppose Trump policy, they oppose Trump honesty about Trump policy -- the only time in the past four years they've had a substantive policy break from the fat bastard was the time he didn't start WWIII with Iran.

The closest you'll find in the electorate are people who might stay home, but they're not turning out for Biden. Big "might", with high-90% approval rates and a bone to pick over impeachment. And to tilt at those windmills, Democrats are endangering turnout on their left flank. That this was the strategy in 2016 and we're currently not discussing Hillary's impending re-election should tell you, right here and now, about the rationality of that strategy and the sanity of repeating it.

Now, a rhetorical question: which was the highest turnout year in terms of percentage of VAP since 1968, and who won?
Don't mind me. I just happened to notice a complete lack of citations in these paragraphs of opinion and conjecture.
 
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Silvanus

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You're relying on conventional logic based on a presumption of reasonable times and rational actors
I'm assuming pretty much the opposite of reasonable times and rational actors.

My entire point has been underlined with the argument national Democrats do not have competent actors at the helm, the party is not behaving rationally, and these are not reasonable times.

Conventional logic is parties either win swing voters or turn out the base to win a Presidential election. It's what I was taught in college, and I'm sure that's what you were taught in comparative politics too because that's what everybody is taught. It's also no longer true, and stubbornly insisting by playing by convention is going to cost elections. Self-identified "moderates" are consistent Democratic voters regardless of candidate, independents have no ideological consistency that can be tapped to deliver a bloc of them to sway an election, and elections are plain and simply dictated by turnout by party identification. That's the natural consequence of pushing political polarization to the highest level it's been since the Civil War, and to the point party affiliation is now a social identity on par with race and religion.

Relevant to 2020, Democrats are making a play for two voter groups that do not exist: aforementioned "moderates" who are in fact Democratic voters, and "never Trump Republicans". Trump's support among self-identified Republicans and likely Republican voters is still in the high 90's. These "never Trump Republicans" are a pack of disingenuous, former Bush administration, grifters who are trying their damn hardest to pull the Overton window right while making a tidy profit off donors and the news media. If you pay attention, you'll notice these "fine" men and women don't actually oppose Trump policy, they oppose Trump honesty about Trump policy -- the only time in the past four years they've had a substantive policy break from the fat bastard was the time he didn't start WWIII with Iran.
I'm hard pressed finding anything in the Democratic party platform or even in Biden's speeches and media appearances that would appeal to hard-right Republicans, never-Trumpers or otherwise.

Regardless, everything you've described above actually fits quite neatly into conventional electoral politics. It still boils down to turning out the base; the only real difference is that you see the entire self-identified "moderate" voter bloc as committed Democratic voters who won't be swayed or put off anyway, and the progressives as the ones the Democrats actually need to appeal to.

It's never a good idea to take an electoral bloc for granted. Democrats did precisely that with progressives in 2016, and it cost them; regarding "moderates" as automatic Democratic voters would be a similar act of electoral self-sabotage. The demographics have shifted, become polarised, sure-- that doesn't negate the need to build an electoral coalition, and I'm genuinely sorry to say that the progressive bloc in the USA does not make an electoral coalition on its own.

Keep in mind, I say this as a Socialist who believes the Democrats should wholeheartedly adopt M4A, full decarbonisation, anti-lobbying measures etc. I'm most certainly not advocating that the DNC return to its directionless centre-right nonsense. What I'm advocating is that progressive voters recognise that some kind of revolutionary realignment is not going to happen in one electoral cycle, and that they do not command the power to make that happen. They do have the power to shift the Democrats to the left (if the Democrats prove open to it) via electoral coalition-building: the only electoral strategy through which any meaningful progress has ever been made in the States.

Now, a rhetorical question: which was the highest turnout year in terms of percentage of VAP since 1968, and who won?
After a quick Google to confirm, Obama in 2008, who succeeded by building an electoral coalition of progressives and "moderates", and whose party platform is pretty comparable to Biden's.

(A bit convenient to say "since 1968", too, since 1968 itself was higher, and was won by Nixon).
 
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Seanchaidh

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Oh man, you're right.

Guess I won't be voting for Biden now. Thank you for steering me straight!
Oh no!

(A bit convenient to say "since 1968", too, since 1968 itself was higher, and was won by Nixon).
Hmm, 1968, that year rings a bell... let me look that up...

Martin Luther King Jr. assassinated
Oh, right.

Robert F. Kennedy assassinated
Hmm, yeah, that happened.

Hubert Humphrey was left as the most likely Democratic nominee, and supportive of Lyndon Johnson's policy to stay in the Vietnam war.
That's pretty cringe.

The Chicago Democratic convention was protested by thousands and violently crushed.
Yikes.

Very normal year.
 
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Eacaraxe

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I'm assuming pretty much the opposite of reasonable times and rational actors.
Just not in the case of the Democratic party. Don't be coy.

I'm hard pressed finding anything in the Democratic party platform or even in Biden's speeches and media appearances that would appeal to hard-right Republicans, never-Trumpers or otherwise.
Well as long as you ignore the leaked paid speeches to Comcast, Comcast execs, Third Way contributors, and the financial sector, where he was unaware he was being recorded and/or transcribed which makes them as close to hot mic moments as one can count in the dark ages of campaign finance. Are you going to deny he said he wouldn't "demonize" the rich and "nothing would fundamentally change"? Are you going to deny the financial sector is hard right altogether, throws its money behind whichever candidate offers them the best deal, and in the course of it pulls the Democratic party (and the Overton window, which I cannot help but notice you brought up) rightward?

Once again, the similarities between 2016 and 2020 surface, as this was also Hillary's model of finance networking and fundraising, and her's and Bill's $153m worth of Wall Street speaking fees, and speech recordings/transcripts, bit her right in the ass too.

Or, are you going to pretend "white suburban voters" aren't the single-biggest Republican voting bloc in the country? Specifically white suburban women, who swung for Trump with 53% about whom so much ado has been made this year?

Regardless, everything you've described above actually fits quite neatly into conventional electoral politics.
And what did I say was the problem with "conventional electoral politics"?

It still boils down to turning out the base; the only real difference is that you see the entire self-identified "moderate" voter bloc as committed Democratic voters who won't be swayed or put off anyway, and the progressives as the ones the Democrats actually need to appeal to.

It's never a good idea to take an electoral bloc for granted. Democrats did precisely that with progressives in 2016, and it cost them; regarding "moderates" as automatic Democratic voters would be a similar act of electoral self-sabotage.
The difference between now and 2016 is that care of four years' worth of pervasive cable news bullshit, the Democratic party has a newly-minted bumper crop of low-infos who would vote for literally anyone to oppose Trump. Invariably, they fall into the "moderate" camp and their votes are not in question. And rather than shore up weaknesses with blocs that are actually at risk, Democratic policy elites and strategists have taken it upon themselves to circle the wagons, double down, and tack right. If you're looking only at Biden and not his media surrogates (in an election year where the campaign has allowed surrogates to represent him as opposed to speak regularly), and even then a curated sample of Biden's post-nomination campaign speeches rather than the totality of his Presidential bid let alone his career as an elected official, you're not seeing the big picture.

That's the opposite of coalition-building. That's tilting at windmills, chasing demos that don't exist and appealing to demos that, best case scenario, will stay home. That's trying to re-litigate 2016, using the 2016 playbook when it was a proven failure, with the same professional wrong people that wrote the 2016 playbook, the same donors who paid 2016's jobbers, virtually the same scandals with worse outcomes in terms of anger and demobilization as 2016, the same polling and demo tracking as 2016 to date, but expecting different results.

What I'm advocating is that progressive voters recognise that some kind of revolutionary realignment is not going to happen in one electoral cycle, and that they do not command the power to make that happen. They do have the power to shift the Democrats to the left (if the Democrats prove open to it) via electoral coalition-building: the only electoral strategy through which any meaningful progress has ever been made in the States.
First, Democrats have proven consistently they're not, and second, you fundamentally misread the progressive tenor if you genuinely think that to be the case. Progressives want a transparent platform with transparent and accountable leadership, that comes with a guarantee of action and an action plan, that will survive first contact with the enemy let alone bear the rigor of negotiation to yield progressive policy. And, we want an executive who can and will use the bully pulpit and full force of the 21st Century unitary executive to advance the party's platform, indeed against the fringe right of their own party who treat the platform as a square of used toilet paper, if need be.

This fundamental issue is why Democrats have zero credibility, authority, or legitimacy in the eyes of progressives least of all after eight years of Obama; the Democratic platform is purpose-built to fail. See, my commentary up-thread about negotiation.

After a quick Google to confirm, Obama in 2008, who succeeded by building an electoral coalition of progressives and "moderates", and whose party platform is pretty comparable to Biden's.
Can't help but notice not included in your calculus was the PUMA movement and that 25% of Hillary voters flipped to McCain in November. A 6% swing in the American electorate (25% of Hillary supporters equates to 12.5% of the Democratic electorate, in turn translating to 6.25% of the American electorate) should have been immediately damning to Obama's campaign, but it wasn't -- and in fact, despite this Obama won in a landslide.

Did Obama pivot post-primary to shore up the Democratic center? Sure. Did he pivot all that much from running a campaign founded on progressive and populist core values, with a strategy of energizing and turning out young, first-time, and minority voters? No. Did his pivot substantially impact his platform? No, Goldman Sachs and Citigroup did that.

Obama's campaign read the tea leaves right. They realized they were going to lose a quarter of Hillary's voters (those numbers were in as early as March and stayed consistent throughout the campaign), and the majority of Democratic voters were voting Democratic, regardless. The Hillary voters were a sunk cost, and there's no benefit to appealing to voters who are already guaranteed turn-out, so they made a calculated risk appealing to the left and it paid the biggest returns in a Presidential election since the Southern strategy.

(A bit convenient to say "since 1968", too, since 1968 itself was higher, and was won by Nixon).
I thought I'd be nice about it. That's only the election year when RFK entered the race to block Eugene McCarthy and got a sudden case of lead poisoning, the convention was thoroughly ratfucked causing mass riots, McCarthy who was the clear frontrunner didn't get the nomination and Humphrey who barely participated did, Wallace went third-party and carried most of the South, and Nixon cruise controlled to victory.

Would you like to talk about '64 when the Texan won a landslide promising to continue the legacy of an assassinated President, against a nuke-happy lunatic? Wanna talk about '60 when it was Nixon versus Jack Kennedy? Wanna talk about '52 and '56 when Eisenhower won landslides -- wanna compare Eisenhower's platform to today's Democratic platform and see how it stacks up? Of course before any of them were Truman and FDR, the forefathers of the contemporary Democratic party, but if you want to talk about them you can be goddamn certain I'd love to have a chat about Henry Wallace, too.
 
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Agema

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Yeah. Lucky we're in a normal year this time around, and can therefore make direct analogies with all those other normal years!
All normal years are alike; but every abnormal year is abnormal in its own way.
 
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Silvanus

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Just not in the case of the Democratic party. Don't be coy.
I'm not assuming it there, either. The conclusions I'm drawing don't require it.

Well as long as you ignore the leaked paid speeches to Comcast, Comcast execs, Third Way contributors, and the financial sector, where he was unaware he was being recorded and/or transcribed which makes them as close to hot mic moments as one can count in the dark ages of campaign finance. Are you going to deny he said he wouldn't "demonize" the rich and "nothing would fundamentally change"? Are you going to deny the financial sector is hard right altogether, throws its money behind whichever candidate offers them the best deal, and in the course of it pulls the Democratic party (and the Overton window, which I cannot help but notice you brought up) rightward?

Once again, the similarities between 2016 and 2020 surface, as this was also Hillary's model of finance networking and fundraising, and her's and Bill's $153m worth of Wall Street speaking fees, and speech recordings/transcripts, bit her right in the ass too.

Or, are you going to pretend "white suburban voters" aren't the single-biggest Republican voting bloc in the country? Specifically white suburban women, who swung for Trump with 53% about whom so much ado has been made this year?
Oh, nothing's being ignored. It's obvious and expected that a neoliberal Democratic candidate will schmooze up to wealthy donors, financiers, interest groups etc. The bloc tends to be economically right-wing, but more than that to value "stability", predictability and the maintenance of the status quo. And it doesn't uniformly swing one way or the other.

The financial sector is not what I had in mind when I brought up the "hard right". Those people are not going to be convinced by a relatively empty and milquetoast plea to reassure a room of donors (note how the very following section is about how we need to address income inequality). That's not wildly out of the wheelhouse of any establishment Democratic candidate.


And what did I say was the problem with "conventional electoral politics"?
That the assumptions associated with it don't apply this time around. That's why I found it quite odd to follow up with a very conventional analysis about turning out the base.

The difference between now and 2016 is that care of four years' worth of pervasive cable news bullshit, the Democratic party has a newly-minted bumper crop of low-infos who would vote for literally anyone to oppose Trump. Invariably, they fall into the "moderate" camp and their votes are not in question. And rather than shore up weaknesses with blocs that are actually at risk, Democratic policy elites and strategists have taken it upon themselves to circle the wagons, double down, and tack right. If you're looking only at Biden and not his media surrogates (in an election year where the campaign has allowed surrogates to represent him as opposed to speak regularly), and even then a curated sample of Biden's post-nomination campaign speeches rather than the totality of his Presidential bid let alone his career as an elected official, you're not seeing the big picture.

That's the opposite of coalition-building. That's tilting at windmills, chasing demos that don't exist and appealing to demos that, best case scenario, will stay home. That's trying to re-litigate 2016, using the 2016 playbook when it was a proven failure, with the same professional wrong people that wrote the 2016 playbook, the same donors who paid 2016's jobbers, virtually the same scandals with worse outcomes in terms of anger and demobilization as 2016, the same polling and demo tracking as 2016 to date, but expecting different results.
I haven't really seen a shred of evidence that the "low info moderate" bloc is a solid and reliable Democratic voterbase. Unless you think Trump is just that offputting, which the numbers don't seem to bear out.

The progressive bloc, on the other hand, seems even more likely to refuse to turn out, based on what I've been seeing recently. It also seems simply too small numerically.

Can't help but notice not included in your calculus was the PUMA movement and that 25% of Hillary voters flipped to McCain in November. A 6% swing in the American electorate (25% of Hillary supporters equates to 12.5% of the Democratic electorate, in turn translating to 6.25% of the American electorate) should have been immediately damning to Obama's campaign, but it wasn't -- and in fact, despite this Obama won in a landslide.

Did Obama pivot post-primary to shore up the Democratic center? Sure. Did he pivot all that much from running a campaign founded on progressive and populist core values, with a strategy of energizing and turning out young, first-time, and minority voters? No. Did his pivot substantially impact his platform? No, Goldman Sachs and Citigroup did that.

Obama's campaign read the tea leaves right. They realized they were going to lose a quarter of Hillary's voters (those numbers were in as early as March and stayed consistent throughout the campaign), and the majority of Democratic voters were voting Democratic, regardless. The Hillary voters were a sunk cost, and there's no benefit to appealing to voters who are already guaranteed turn-out, so they made a calculated risk appealing to the left and it paid the biggest returns in a Presidential election since the Southern strategy.
Of course he appealed to the left. If you think he didn't simultaneously appeal to the "moderate" wing, I'm not sure how. Every Democratic candidate attempts-- and has to attempt-- to be all things to all people (to some degree), and Obama's electoral coalition was a broad church as a result.

This doesn't mean that the moderates were just always going to go his way, and that he didn't need to pay them any attention. No strategy based around ignoring your main numerical voting bloc will last.

I thought I'd be nice about it. That's only the election year when RFK entered the race to block Eugene McCarthy and got a sudden case of lead poisoning, the convention was thoroughly ratfucked causing mass riots, McCarthy who was the clear frontrunner didn't get the nomination and Humphrey who barely participated did, Wallace went third-party and carried most of the South, and Nixon cruise controlled to victory.

Would you like to talk about '64 when the Texan won a landslide promising to continue the legacy of an assassinated President, against a nuke-happy lunatic? Wanna talk about '60 when it was Nixon versus Jack Kennedy? Wanna talk about '52 and '56 when Eisenhower won landslides -- wanna compare Eisenhower's platform to today's Democratic platform and see how it stacks up? Of course before any of them were Truman and FDR, the forefathers of the contemporary Democratic party, but if you want to talk about them you can be goddamn certain I'd love to have a chat about Henry Wallace, too.
I don't really want to talk about any of that. But if you originally wanted to compare with quote-unquote "normal" years, it would seem an odd comparison given the year we're in.
 
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Eacaraxe

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I'm not assuming it there, either. The conclusions I'm drawing don't require it.
They either are, or they are not. Democratic policy elites and strategists had a choice between re-litigating 2016, a proven losing strategy, or adapting Obama's campaign model, a proven winning strategy. They chose the former, and have openly denounced the latter. As that is not the maximal path to victory for a Democratic candidate, and is in fact a repeatedly proven minimal path to victory for a Democratic candidate when also taking into consideration 2000 and 2004, that is not a rational choice. There's really no room for ambiguity in this.

The bloc tends to be economically right-wing...The financial sector is not what I had in mind when I brought up the "hard right".
Again you're using old hat reasoning. We're in the middle of a party realignment. Clinton condemned the country to it in the '90s when the Democratic party threw labor under the bus to chase finance, tech, and media sector money, and the PMC vote. The latter all but vanished during the Bush regime and 2008 crisis, labor's worse off than at any point since the Gilded Age and mad as hell about it, and the Democratic party is making a naked play to corner the market on Wall Street campaign finance. That realignment has been forestalled by Bush's and Obama's electoral politics, but like it or not it's here and Democrats burying their heads in the sand will not aid their party viability.

This isn't even the first time this exact realignment has happened: it happened to the Republicans in the 1860's and 1870's, and from that realignment came Jim Crow and the Gilded Age. You can trace both straight back to the 1876 election.

Like it or not, what defines left from right is changing. It has been shifting for four decades along the "old" paradigm as Republicans pulled ever conventionally rightward, dragging Democrats in tow. As matters stand right now, the only effective difference between left and right are less than a handful of wedge issues centered on social and identity politics, and the problem with wedge issues is that if one party or another solves for them, they cease to be issues. And, when the stance on those wedge issues is performative, actively anti-substantive, facade to traditionally hard-right economic policy?

What good, for example, does it to do ensure access to birth control or abortion if the party advocating for it won't take a hard stance on women being able to afford them in the first place. What good does gun control do when the strongest correlation to and predictor of it (and violent crime in sum) is income inequality, and the party in favor of gun control retreats from policy that would solve for income inequality. What good does criminal justice reform do, when the party advocating for it will only commit to proven ineffective and counter-productive policies. What good does a commitment to climate science and vow to act on climate change do, when the proposals stemming from it are contrary to the science and will not prove effective for preventing climate catastrophe, while the same people making that commitment are endorsing and funding Senate bids for politicians vowing to blockade climate legislation.

You don't have to take this from me.


That the assumptions associated with it don't apply this time around. That's why I found it quite odd to follow up with a very conventional analysis about turning out the base.
Stop selectively comprehending my commentary and you might not find it so odd.

I haven't really seen a shred of evidence that the "low info moderate" bloc is a solid and reliable Democratic voterbase. Unless you think Trump is just that offputting, which the numbers don't seem to bear out.
The irony is the latter led to the former. Trump has a high-90's approval rate among Republicans because the only difference between him and post-Goldwater Republicans, is he pops off at the mouth and is honest about what he does. Taking his Twitter shitposting out of the equation, he's not even as offensive a Republican as Bush. Including the absolute failure in leadership that was COVID-19.

Because that "low info moderate" bloc are the Trump-deranged who have bought hook, line, and sinker into the idea Trump is somehow a unique existential threat to this country, to the point of being propagandized into looking nostalgically upon the President who allowed 9/11 to happen, and leveraged it into two unilaterally-waged foreign wars that cost trillions of dollars and cost millions of lives, for no other reason than to enrich his and Cheney's buddies.

This doesn't mean that the moderates were just always going to go his way, and that he didn't need to pay them any attention. No strategy based around ignoring your main numerical voting bloc will last.
You think eight years of Bush and the 2008 economic crisis didn't lock in "moderates" for Obama, when his opponent was a chief advocate of Bush economic and foreign policy?
 
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tstorm823

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You haven't seemed to grasp that the point is that there are six, not two.
I did grasp that, yes. But it's still mostly organized Republican down one side and Democrat down the other. And then he put Trump in a bubble, bu the bubble happens to be under the Democrat parts, which is funny because Trump is a Democrat.
 

Seanchaidh

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I did grasp that, yes. But it's still mostly organized Republican down one side and Democrat down the other. And then he put Trump in a bubble, bu the bubble happens to be under the Democrat parts, which is funny because Trump is a Democrat.
No one is going to be fooled into thinking Republicans are acceptable just because you keep saying this.
 
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Eacaraxe

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You haven't seemed to grasp that the point is that there are six, not two.
Nor Reich's argument, which is that both "parties'" establishments are of, by, and for the wealthy, to act in the vested economic interest of the wealthy -- and wedge issues are performance to keep other factions in the "big tents" distracted and complaint. If you're looking at how he identifies and characterizes each faction, and not what he circles at the end of the video, you're missing his entire point.
 

Silvanus

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They either are, or they are not. Democratic policy elites and strategists had a choice between re-litigating 2016, a proven losing strategy, or adapting Obama's campaign model, a proven winning strategy. They chose the former, and have openly denounced the latter. As that is not the maximal path to victory for a Democratic candidate, and is in fact a repeatedly proven minimal path to victory for a Democratic candidate when also taking into consideration 2000 and 2004, that is not a rational choice. There's really no room for ambiguity in this.
I'm not being ambiguous. I'm well aware that the Democratic Party is self-sabotaging and irrational. I'm not sure why you're hammering on that point as if I'm denying it.

Again you're using old hat reasoning. We're in the middle of a party realignment. Clinton condemned the country to it in the '90s when the Democratic party threw labor under the bus to chase finance, tech, and media sector money, and the PMC vote. The latter all but vanished during the Bush regime and 2008 crisis, labor's worse off than at any point since the Gilded Age and mad as hell about it, and the Democratic party is making a naked play to corner the market on Wall Street campaign finance. That realignment has been forestalled by Bush's and Obama's electoral politics, but like it or not it's here and Democrats burying their heads in the sand will not aid their party viability.

This isn't even the first time this exact realignment has happened: it happened to the Republicans in the 1860's and 1870's, and from that realignment came Jim Crow and the Gilded Age. You can trace both straight back to the 1876 election.

Like it or not, what defines left from right is changing. It has been shifting for four decades along the "old" paradigm as Republicans pulled ever conventionally rightward, dragging Democrats in tow. As matters stand right now, the only effective difference between left and right are less than a handful of wedge issues centered on social and identity politics, and the problem with wedge issues is that if one party or another solves for them, they cease to be issues. And, when the stance on those wedge issues is performative, actively anti-substantive, facade to traditionally hard-right economic policy?

What good, for example, does it to do ensure access to birth control or abortion if the party advocating for it won't take a hard stance on women being able to afford them in the first place. What good does gun control do when the strongest correlation to and predictor of it (and violent crime in sum) is income inequality, and the party in favor of gun control retreats from policy that would solve for income inequality. What good does criminal justice reform do, when the party advocating for it will only commit to proven ineffective and counter-productive policies. What good does a commitment to climate science and vow to act on climate change do, when the proposals stemming from it are contrary to the science and will not prove effective for preventing climate catastrophe, while the same people making that commitment are endorsing and funding Senate bids for politicians vowing to blockade climate legislation.
The shifting of the Democratic Party to the economic right is not a new phenomenon: it's been shifting, sometimes gradually and sometimes less so (and with occasional minor backsliding) for about half a century. And that covers a great number of elections.

Party realignment is not a flip-switch, or a zero-sum game. Don't imagine that the realignment in the bases of the two parties will suddenly reach a certain critical point which will necessitate the abandonment of all conventional political wisdom: that's ultimately simplistic.

In truth, those conventional assumptions-- that the labourers and the industrial working class will vote Democratic; that moneyed interests and financiers will vote Republican; etc-- have been losing validity for decades.

And there's no "old hat reasoning" at play: nothing I've said relies on these old assumptions and conventional demographic wisdom. What I've been saying is that the self-described "moderates" do not automatically vote Democrat as you seem to believe, and that progressives do not form a viable electoral coalition on their own.


The irony is the latter led to the former. Trump has a high-90's approval rate among Republicans because the only difference between him and post-Goldwater Republicans, is he pops off at the mouth and is honest about what he does. Taking his Twitter shitposting out of the equation, he's not even as offensive a Republican as Bush. Including the absolute failure in leadership that was COVID-19.

Because that "low info moderate" bloc are the Trump-deranged who have bought hook, line, and sinker into the idea Trump is somehow a unique existential threat to this country, to the point of being propagandized into looking nostalgically upon the President who allowed 9/11 to happen, and leveraged it into two unilaterally-waged foreign wars that cost trillions of dollars and cost millions of lives, for no other reason than to enrich his and Cheney's buddies.
Again, the polling doesn't indicate that this great offputting has actually occurred. I find it inexplicable that it hasn't, but I'm following the numbers, not my gut.

You think eight years of Bush and the 2008 economic crisis didn't lock in "moderates" for Obama, when his opponent was a chief advocate of Bush economic and foreign policy?
I think considering any bloc-- especially one as immense and non-homogeneous as "moderates"-- as "locked in" is a recipe for complacency and failure.