Liberals, progressives and conservatives of note sign open letter to end cancel culture. (Noam Chomsky/J.K. Rowling/Gloria Steinem/David Brooks etc.)

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Terminal Blue

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That compensating them for their efforts is at least as economically efficient as driving them as slaves.
Economically efficient for whom?

Again, you've missed the fundamental point here. Cotton was always economically efficient whether it was grown by slaves or technically free people. It made incredible amounts of money, the point is that slaves did not see any return on the incredible fortunes they made for other people.

After the civil war, cotton growers did not receive much in the way of compensation for their efforts. Sharecroppers could sell the cotton they produced, for example, but they had to pay a heavy price for their tenancy and, if they couldn't, their harvest would be taken as collateral and they would be left destitute. Many smaller farmers (including, for the first time, white farmers) switched to growing cotton because after the civil war many people ended up in debt. Predatory lenders would buy these debts with the condition, again, that a farmer's harvest act as collateral, leaving them destitute and without a livelihood if they failed to meet payments and resulting in effective, inescapable wage slavery. The reason these methods were "at least as economically efficient" was because they were not significantly more equitable than slavery. They still overwhelmingly benefited plantation owners or wealthy people who were able to continue to exploit the lasting economic inequality they had created under slavery.

I agree, it isn't a coincidence. But the cause is hate, it isn't the drive for economic prosperity.
The practical effect of racist violence has often been the impoverishment of black communities. Racist violence often involved the deliberate destruction or theft of property, or driving people out of communities where they had previously been able to make a living. It doesn't ultimately matter whether that was the primary intention (and I would argue that often it was), it was nonetheless the effect.

A supporter of the big "Cancel Culture is sI lending debate" letter used a spurious defamation suit to silence criticism.
I mean, it's obvious but bears saying again.

Free speech is when I'm winning the debate.

Cancel culture is when I'm losing the debate.
 
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Aegix Drakan

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I mean, it's obvious but bears saying again.

Free speech is when I'm winning the debate.

Cancel culture is when I'm losing the debate.
Ain't that the truth? Ain't that how these people always are?

"oh woe is me, people are angry at me on twitter or protesting me at a univesity when I'm saying odious things, I'm being cancelled! I will now file a lawsuit or whine in a nationally-read news site/paper (article probably paid for by the paper) about how unfair it is and how those people shouldn't be allowed to do that. Probably in-between saying how anyone claiming that palestinians have human rights are anti-semites and should be banned"

Well this thread turned predictably to shit.
Like 99% of the political threads the Escapist has seen in the last 4+ years.

And yet, it's the reason why most of us stick around, weirdly enough.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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Ain't that the truth? Ain't that how these people always are?

"oh woe is me, people are angry at me on twitter or protesting me at a univesity when I'm saying odious things, I'm being cancelled! I will now file a lawsuit or whine in a nationally-read news site/paper (article probably paid for by the paper) about how unfair it is and how those people shouldn't be allowed to do that. Probably in-between saying how anyone claiming that palestinians have human rights are anti-semites and should be banned"



Like 99% of the political threads the Escapist has seen in the last 4+ years.

And yet, it's the reason why most of us stick around, weirdly enough.
It's your kind of thinking that is going to get Trump elected again.
 

Aegix Drakan

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It's your kind of thinking that is going to get Trump elected again.
?

Pointing out that a lot of the people whining that they're being cancelled by "twitter mobs" are either hypocrites (whining about being "cancelled" despite themselves taking action to actually shut down speech they don't like) or are just entitled elitists who are mad they're being criticized is going to get trump elected again?

If that's true, MAN the state of political discussion in the states is even more messed up than I thought.
 

Specter Von Baren

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?

Pointing out that a lot of the people whining that they're being cancelled by "twitter mobs" are either hypocrites (whining about being "cancelled" despite themselves taking action to actually shut down speech they don't like) or are just entitled elitists who are mad they're being criticized is going to get trump elected again?

If that's true, MAN the state of political discussion in the states is even more messed up than I thought.
As if your own country is exempt from this problem
 

Aegix Drakan

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As if your own country is exempt from this problem
Which one, the political spectrum being messed up?

Because, yeah, sure, we have that problem, but waaayyyy less insane (We did stave off the mild-compared-to-trump conservative government seizing power despite a frankly boggling number of scandals from Trudeau, which was honestly unexpected).

And I'm pretty sure we're getting that problem from cultural osmosis form the US, as conservative groups wish there was a trump here to "own the libs".
 

Agema

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Pointing out that a lot of the people whining that they're being cancelled by "twitter mobs" are either hypocrites (whining about being "cancelled" despite themselves taking action to actually shut down speech they don't like) or are just entitled elitists who are mad they're being criticized is going to get trump elected again?
It's all a libertarian plot, because once we've all cancelled each other collectivism will be impossible.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Which one, the political spectrum being messed up?

Because, yeah, sure, we have that problem, but waaayyyy less insane (We did stave off the mild-compared-to-trump conservative government seizing power despite a frankly boggling number of scandals from Trudeau, which was honestly unexpected).

And I'm pretty sure we're getting that problem from cultural osmosis form the US, as conservative groups wish there was a trump here to "own the libs".
Oh, you misunderstand me. Your problem is the attempt to stiffle others voices. People giving you the middle finger is just the result of that.

It's all a libertarian plot, because once we've all cancelled each other collectivism will be impossible.
Your own country also seems to have this effect happening. It's as if Trump caused nothing but is instead the result of a dislike of the slip into oppressive cultures.
 

Aegix Drakan

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Oh, you misunderstand me. Your problem is the attempt to stiffle others voices. People giving you the middle finger is just the result of that.
While, yes, this is a problem, it's massively overhyped.

Like...I still run into people online thinking that Canada is an authoritarian communist hellhole that will lock you up if you misgender someone, or that it's illegal to criticize islam, despite the fact that this is not the case, I've actually READ the laws in question and none of that's in there, it's legit fake news.

Now, yes, the media and government and influential types will often not platform anything or anyone that goes against the intended "Everything is fine, there's no wealth inequality, we aren't selling your jobs overseas, we're totally not aiding with wars that are deeply immoral and unpopular" narrative...That's rarely ever what people are actually mad about.

Most of the time it's people just mad that people are telling them they're being assholes when they say bigoted things (or at least, don't show people basic common decency), or being mad that the government went "Hey, on this bill we were already passing to give funding to people investigating extremism, let's put 'islamophobia' as an explicit thing that we should be investigating, because some nut just gunned down a mosque, while spouting extremist rhetoric".

Honestly, anyone going "People calling you an asshole on twitter for being an asshole on twitter is oppression and stifling of other voices!" are just mad that they can't be an asshole with no social consequences anymore (and they likely would be cheering on the dogpiling if their arguments were more popular, and saying that "The free market place of ideas has decided that your ideas are BAD! Take THAT!").

Also, is there similar outrage from you when people mass-send death threats or other attempts to "stifle" people whose voices they don't like, ranging from game studios who DARED make some probably bad narrative decisions (and have a very muscular lady and a trans character) to politicians whose main schtick is "The system isn't working, we need to care more about our citizens"? Genuinely asking.

Your own country also seems to have this effect happening. It's as if Trump caused nothing but is instead the result of a dislike of the slip into oppressive cultures.
Which is "funny" because trump (who himself is more or less a "Tax cuts for the wealthy and continue needless wars" Establishment shill, just more anti-immigrant) is in fact an even FASTER slide into even more oppression! On top of the already crappy neoliberal/neoconservative twin hydra that's been screwing people for decades!

I mean, it IS trump's administration going: "What's that? People are still using their free speech right to protest police brutality and some people have torn down statues, most of whom are of literal traitors whose statues were put up as an explicit "eff you" to a specific demographic? Time to send in the feds with no identification and army fatigues and unmarked vans to start literally grabbing people off the street and/or shooting people in the face point blank with projectiles that break their entire face, when the city, AND the state's governor doesn't WANT the feds there! States rights? PFFFT, what's that?"
 
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Agema

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Your own country also seems to have this effect happening. It's as if Trump caused nothing but is instead the result of a dislike of the slip into oppressive cultures.
Yes, how convenient. Trump is bad, therrefore he's the product of ideology you oppose!

It's not like Trump can be the product of stuff like the internet facilitating degradation of political debate, increases in media outlets causing atomisation and echo chambers, overt feeding of public hostility by politicians, disillusionment with government, likely caused in large part by failure of government to respond to public needs).

As for my own country, the recent woes and unhappiness are closely associated with post-crash austerity: rise in support for Brexit and anti-immigration was heavily associated with poorer, post-industrial areas that had been struggling for decades since the collapse of manufacturing in the 1980s. It'a almost like people who feel left behind, that have few opportunities, and think they are ignored by the government lose faith in conventional politics. Who'd have thought?

Trump is certainly also the cause of things. With the possible exception of being sufficiently bad that he discredits the idea of anyone like him taking office for a good while, I suspect few of them will turn out to be good. Of course, your comment implies that Trump represents a reaction to "oppressive culture" by those who don't want oppression. Unfortunately, this doesn't survive analysis when we see Trump is patently authoritarian.
 

Specter Von Baren

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While, yes, this is a problem, it's massively overhyped.
No. Not really. The literature bears out on this. Reading stuff from between the two world wars shows the same things happening from the side of the left and with terrible results.

Why does your kind never accept responsibility for their own decisions?
My kind? What decisions?
 
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Agema

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No. Not really. The literature bears out on this. Reading stuff from between the two world wars shows the same things happening from the side of the left and with terrible results.
Does your literature include the widespread postwar suppression of homosexuality and women by the right? The states where right-wing coups overturned democratically elected socialists and then violently repressed them? Does it include right-wing censorship of pornography, the Hays Code, blackballing people who at some point went to a Communist meeting 20 years before and police surveillance of even modestly left-wing politicians? Do they cover that even now, whilst the right complains that students disrupt campus speeches, at the same time they support defunding of non-approved academic courses, and debate enforcing ideology over campuses by forcing universities to hire more right-wing staff? Has it noticed European states like Hungary and Poland where under no socialist threat, the right aggressively closes down opposition media outlets?

Right-wingers are reluctant to admit that their side has a vein of intolerance and suppression of dissenting voices as thick as anything their opponents can muster. The liberal defence of free speech is spread across the political divide, liberal left to liberal right. The liberal right, however, will always tend to side with the authoritarian right, because nine times out of ten they care more about not being taxed than the left being allowed to speak up for higher taxes. Perhaps recognising this awkwardness at some level, they salve their consciences by deluding themselves that their authoritarian allies aren't authoritarians.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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Does your literature include the widespread postwar suppression of homosexuality and women by the right? The states where right-wing coups overturned democratically elected socialists and then violently repressed them? Does it include right-wing censorship of pornography, the Hays Code, blackballing people who at some point went to a Communist meeting 20 years before and police surveillance of even modestly left-wing politicians? Do they cover that even now, whilst the right complains that students disrupt campus speeches, at the same time they support defunding of non-approved academic courses, and debate enforcing ideology over campuses by forcing universities to hire more right-wing staff? Has it noticed European states like Hungary and Poland where under no socialist threat, the right aggressively closes down opposition media outlets?
It shows the rise of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and Maoist China. Three of the worst regimes in the last century and all founded on the same philosophy. Hayak, Orwell, Solzhenitsyn, the signs in the writing are all very clear to anyone that doesn't want to bury their heads in the sand.

Right-wingers are reluctant to admit that their side has a vein of intolerance and suppression of dissenting voices as thick as anything their opponents can muster.
And all the oppression and silencing now isn't being done by the left? What about that Count Dankula incident that happened in your country? That didn't seem like a welcoming of expression and ideas.

The liberal defence of free speech is spread across the political divide, liberal left to liberal right. The liberal right, however, will always tend to side with the authoritarian right, because nine times out of ten they care more about not being taxed than the left being allowed to speak up for higher taxes. Perhaps recognising this awkwardness at some level, they salve their consciences by deluding themselves that their authoritarian allies aren't authoritarians.
This is done by both sides, Escaraxe has pointed out how brainwashed so many people on the left are. The right isn't much better, the difference is that they're more obvious which makes people that realize the left is filled with snake oil salesmen hate them more.

Yes, neoliberal capitalism is pretty shit.
I agree.
 

Trunkage

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And all the oppression and silencing now isn't being done by the left? What about that Count Dankula incident that happened in your country? That didn't seem like a welcoming of expression and ideas.
Hey, could you tell me which politcal party was in power when Dankula got charged? (I'll give you a clue, it rhymes with Rory.)
How about the PM who first introduced Hate Speech laws into Britain? (I'll give you a clue, it rhyme with matcher)

SO, in your eyes, Is the WHOLE British Parliament just a left conspiracy plot to get those evil conservatives? Because that's the ONLY possible explanation to whatever you're complaining about.
 
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