Liberals, progressives and conservatives of note sign open letter to end cancel culture. (Noam Chomsky/J.K. Rowling/Gloria Steinem/David Brooks etc.)

Terminal Blue

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There's not really a straight line between Tsarist Russia and communist Russia, it could have easily gone the other way if the new government post-Nicholas hadn't been so incompetent.
We're getting into the hazardous world of counterhistory/alt-history here, but just to clarify. What is the other way?

I don't deny that Russia could have gone an other way, but it was never going to be liberal individualism. The kadets (the only remaining Russian liberal party) were an aristocratic party which had formed under autocracy, not a bourgeois party which had formed under capitalism. Their platform was based on issues like suffrage, nationalism, freedom of religion and local autonomy rather than individualist concerns like property rights and free expression. They were also a major reason why the provisional government failed.

There's various reasons why they won, but I don't buy the idea that China was on a straight line between its dynasties and Mao. Again, it's not hard to imagine the communists being defeated. Heck, Mao had to lead one of the longest marches/retreats in human history years long before actually taking power.
So, when I mention the Republic of China, that includes Chiang Kai Shek's rule. Under Chiang, the KMT killed millions of its own citizens. Many died because they were forcibly conscripted into the army and then not provided with food or medical care. Food confiscation was common, with the government or army often selling confiscated food for profit while the peasants who grew it starved. Then there is the general political oppression. The torture and murder of opponents of the regime, the anti-communist massacres and purges and the general abuse of civilians by the army. The KMT was a military dictatorship. It was less ideologically opposed to democracy than the previous dictatorship under Yuan Shikai, but it was still a military dictatorship which ruled through fear, violence and a corrupt, unchecked military.

Again, this is a major part of why the KMT lost the civil war despite having the larger army and control over the Chinese heartland, because the peasants hated the KMT government. The CCP under Mao made a conscious effort to win over the peasant population and had strict rules about theft or mistreatment of peasants. Communist atrocities were mostly directed against the landowning class, who were not well liked by most peasants anyway.
 
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Trunkage

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So far our government hasn't made any laws to restrict it but I'd rather not get to that point. Media companies and the SJW mob have been the ones getting people deplatformed or shut up. You know what, screw it. I was making up a full response but screw it. If not even the more knowledgeable people on this forum can convince you then there's no point in me putting in the effort to try when I've been politically asleep for so long.
That evil Leftie MSM Fox deplatformed one of its writers over the weekend. Let’s riot based on the fact that only Lefties deplatform people. We definitely haven’t had court cases taking YouTube on because Left content creators keep getting silenced.

IDK Specter, I can’t imagine why everyone can’t just agree completely with what you said...

Sidenote: why do we keep talking about celebrities when Reddit shut down 2000 subreddits a few weeks ago. It was an unprecedented move. If you want to talk about one sided, that was clearly one sided, with only one of them being a Leftie subreddit...
 

Agema

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What do you think they are then?
I think at base, socialism is the control of the means of production by the workers. Although that's extremely vague.

In practical terms, socialism attempts to maximise the returns of societal production to the workers. How it does this varies enormously. The Eastern bloc Communist nations nationalised industry, put them in control of the state which was technically run by a party workers (although in practice much less so, as the leadership were hard to control by the party base). Anarchism suggests a communal ownership model. In a system more recognisable to our own, some would suggest worker ownership models, such as co-operatives or worker shareholders (e.g. a large minimum percentage of a regular company's shares must be owned by the workers of that company). In many democratic socialist models, it's simply taking a base capitalistic system and scooping out a healthy chunk of national income in tax and distributing it to workers and the poor - providing healthcare, welfare, good transport, and other needs and even minor luxuries, or otherwise ensuring high standards of care either itself (minimum wage and strong labour regulations) or letting the workers do it themselves with labour unions.

The point being that socialism is overwhelmingly an economic system. It actually says pretty much nothing about enforcement and control by the state.

* * *

I think enforcement and state control of information are different factors. They're more about circumstances and tactics to achieve an end that have validity across the political spectrum. Under a state of extreme war, for instance, even a liberal democratic state will take a tight grip on information control.

Communist rule was born of blood and fire, not peaceful transition. To take the USSR, this involved violent overthrow, years of civil war and invasions by external powers, and a persistent sense of threat (in that the rest of the world wanted the Communist regime destroyed). Furthermore, perhaps, the legacy of authoritarian rule from the Tsars and relatively low institutional care for its citizens. The USSR's leaders were paranoid about dissent and external influence - but perhaps rationally so. The second factor would be the massive systemic reforms it wanted, which required a high degree of centralised authority and control. Put in that light, it is perhaps no surprise it was itself highly authoritarian. I think these issues are common across most Communist regimes (e.g. China, Cuba), because they have taken power the same way and encountered the same challenges.

Heavy socialism or communism has been practiced elsewhere without such abuses. Julius Nyerere, for instance, ruled Tanzania and enacted very widespread socialist measures across his country without heavy repression, even though it failed to produce hoped-for economic gains. Chavez and Morales in South America were certainly no worse than their predecessors; both of course removed by coups (alebeit Chavez only temporarily), just in case we're in any doubt as to the nature of their political opponents and state of their country.

However, in practice, this is little different from any other economic system. The aforementioned Pinochet. Syngman Rhee, who was appointed ruler of South Korea after WW2 by the USA, was likewise brutal and authoritarian to enforce control over his country. In fact, decades later, a Korean friend of mine told me there were still a load of postwar South Korean histories technically banned because they painted the early rule of the country in an unflattering light. Highly corrupt regimes also often control information, so that the public cannot probe their corruption. And as we can see in places like Poland and Hungary, albeit without such mass violence, the systematic erosion of civil liberties and political freedom by populist, nationalist right-wing regimes that seem little more than power-grabs.

* * *

Therefore, my overall feeling about socialism is that it is a reflection of the society, history and circumstances of the society that creates it. Socialism, and more so Communism, has frequently been born in troubled or unstable countries with authoritarian traditions, and thus has reflected that. Capitalism (or whatever else) operating in such states is effectively little different from socialism in terms of risk of repression and authoritarianism.

Second to that, the most advanced and stable countries in the world have generally been capitalism-based (mixed economy) liberal democracies. We don't see strong socialism in them because, relatively, they've never had the impetus to go there. For all the flaws in the system, they have largely succeeded in delivering sufficiently such that the populace has not wanted the system overturned. Capitalism is certainly economically more free than socialism, but I think if we only look at the West compared to Communism we can also have a false sense that capitalism is socially free where socialism is not, although I don't think this survives when we take a wider look at the world.
 

Silvanus

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It shows the rise of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and Maoist China. Three of the worst regimes in the last century and all founded on the same philosophy.
No, this is complete ahistorical nonsense. There's pretty much universal recognition among historians, analysts and anyone with any understanding of the period that the Nazis were on the extreme right-wing. This is not seriously disputed.
 
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Eacaraxe

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No, this is complete ahistorical nonsense. There's pretty much universal recognition among historians, analysts and anyone with any understanding of the period that the Nazis were on the extreme right-wing. This is not seriously disputed.
Rather a fan of Arendt, myself.

Totalitarianism exists for its own sake, betrays conventional left-right classification, and to classify an extreme-authoritarian or totalitarian regime as inherently left or right is only going to yield incomplete analysis bereft of vital context, and almost certainly to advance ulterior motive. Nazism appropriated rhetoric and policy from the left to advance the cause of Nazi power, as surely as Stalin appropriated rhetoric and policy from the right to advance the cause of Stalin's power. Because believe it or not, questions of whether to advance socioeconomic equality or tradition and hierarchy, do invariably conflict with those of state power and liberty, and one cannot have their cake and eat it too; governments that are both totalitarian and "extreme" on the left or right are not possible.

The only reason one would want to argue otherwise, is to position a totalitarian regime contrary to one's own interest and motive and lay claim to a synthetic position their own is "true" freedom.
 
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Silvanus

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The only reason one would want to argue otherwise, is to position a totalitarian regime contrary to one's own interest and motive and lay claim to a synthetic position their own is "true" freedom.
Or they could disagree with your underlying premise that such things actually are incompatible with totalitarianism, like most historians and political theorists.
 

Eacaraxe

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Or they could disagree with your underlying premise that such things actually are incompatible with totalitarianism, like most historians and political theorists.
You say that as if academic bias doesn't exist.

I'll be quite happy to illustrate exactly what I'm talking about. Promotion of social equity and social welfare are squarely within left-wing concerns. I doubt anyone will seriously argue that. What of private charity and philanthropy, then? Without economic freedom, a necessary concession of state power, private charity and philanthropy cannot exist.

How do we explain the National Socialist People's Welfare organization, then?
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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I'll be quite happy to illustrate exactly what I'm talking about. Promotion of social equity and social welfare are squarely within left-wing concerns. I doubt anyone will seriously argue that. What of private charity and philanthropy, then? Without economic freedom, a necessary concession of state power, private charity and philanthropy cannot exist.

How do we explain the National Socialist People's Welfare organization, then?
Firstly, because ensuring the general wellbeing of the populace meets the goals of a strong and vibrant race that seeks to dominate others.

Secondly, because the function of welfare can be to strengthen class structure. Remember that the Nazis were intensely opposed to Communism: their way of heading off the working classes getting ideas above their station and deciding to revolt was to pacify them with holidays and social services.
 

Seanchaidh

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Firstly, because ensuring the general wellbeing of the populace meets the goals of a strong and vibrant race that seeks to dominate others.

Secondly, because the function of welfare can be to strengthen class structure. Remember that the Nazis were intensely opposed to Communism: their way of heading off the working classes getting ideas above their station and deciding to revolt was to pacify them with holidays and social services.
Yes, much like some Yang gangers, they claimed that their 'struggle' had moved beyond class and "outdated" ideas about it.
 
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Silvanus

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You say that as if academic bias doesn't exist.

I'll be quite happy to illustrate exactly what I'm talking about. Promotion of social equity and social welfare are squarely within left-wing concerns. I doubt anyone will seriously argue that. What of private charity and philanthropy, then? Without economic freedom, a necessary concession of state power, private charity and philanthropy cannot exist.

How do we explain the National Socialist People's Welfare organization, then?
Very easily. It strengthen's the state's favoured people, and can be implemented in an exclusive and elitist fashion.

Right-wing governments will almost never jettison every single vestige of welfare support, and left-wing governments will almost never jettison every single vestige of hierarchy & tradition. But they will de-emphasise, strip away, de-fund, or co-opt the ones that don't suit their worldview, or they may use them in a self-serving manner.

So, we end up with things like the Francoists' so-called "Vertical Trade Union": ostensibly serving the purpose of a Trade Union in representing the interests of the workers... but functionally being used by the Fascists to entrench hierarchy and prevent social mobility & collective bargaining. Occasionally the Vertical Trade Union will have acted on behalf of its members. That's the vestige. It doesn't mean very much in the wider scheme of things.
 

Agema

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Yes, much like some Yang gangers, they claimed that their 'struggle' had moved beyond class and "outdated" ideas about it.
From my perspective as a liberal, the function of welfare (viewed in its widest sense including education, healthcare, childcare, and various social services) is to maximise opportunities and self-improvement. A single parent without child support might have to slog away at a low income job and that's that for them forever, but with child support and adult education could retrain or gain qualifications and do better. The state should be happy to maximise the potential of its population, not leave half of them in the dump so millionaires can pay 5p in the pound less tax every year.

"Classless society" - much touted back in my youth - has clearly been absolutely bobbins. Just a political gimmick to pretend the country wasn't run by privately educated toffs who got a leg up from their pivileged upbringing and networking. Actual social mobility declined during their tenure. If someone can afford to send their child to an elite, private educational establishment where 90% of the country can't, class exists. If they've got enough wealth and the right contacts to take an unpaid internship with socioeconomic and political elites to jumpstart their career and 95% of the country can't, class exists. If they are given a free $5000 watch or dress as advertising where the other 99% of the population get a free 200ml can of soda when they pass through a train station, class exists.

It's funny how the people who talk about "classless society" or equivalents are inevitably amongst the affluent and well connected.
 

Eacaraxe

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So when you look beyond the superficial trait of "welfare organization" there are reasons that are both totalitarian and fascistic behind its creationn.
You're excluding the part where all other private charity was banned, making economically downtrodden dependent upon the Nazi party for support. In other words, restricting economic freedom to further unify party and state, and reinforce state/party power. That it is a "superficial trait" as you put it, is my point: Nazis appropriated rhetoric and policy of the left when it best-fit the cause of advancing Nazi power.

Right-wing governments will almost never jettison every single vestige of welfare support, and left-wing governments will almost never jettison every single vestige of hierarchy & tradition. But they will de-emphasise, strip away, de-fund, or co-opt the ones that don't suit their worldview, or they may use them in a self-serving manner.
Yes...that would be my point. This is a function of the role and strength of authority (i.e. the authoritarian/libertarian axis) in political systems and ideologies, not the left-right axis. This isn't inherent to left or right, this is inherent to authoritarianism. The problem arises when one starts arguing authoritarianism or totalitarianism are inherently left or right, and start cherry picking authoritarian or totalitarian regimes, or policies of those regimes, to build straw men.

Or to put it another way, the greatest lie told in post-war politics is turning the Nolan chart 45 degrees.
 

Agema

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Or to put it another way, the greatest lie told in post-war politics is turning the Nolan chart 45 degrees.
The greatest lie in politics is to think the difference between left and right is chiefly economic freedom.
 
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Trunkage

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The greatest lie in politics is to think the difference between left and right is chiefly economic freedom.
To be fair, there are a great many lies.

For example, for one person to have freedom, usually someone else needs to lose theirs

And not all freedoms are equal
 
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Agema

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For example, for one person to have freedom, usually someone else needs to lose theirs
I think the comparison of negative and positive freedoms is important.

Negative freedoms are sorts of rights of non-infringement: your right to not be assaulted, to have your property taken from you (tax is theft!), and so on. Positive freedoms are forms of empowerment - the right to have healthcare, accommodation, etc. One of the major movements in liberalism was towards a stronger notion of positive freedoms in the early 20th century, when classical liberalism failed to improve the lot of the poor in the way hoped. Obviously, a chunk of liberalism never moved, and hence the classical liberals and that branch of libertarianism.

Both forms of freedom can be important. But I think the view of negative freedoms favoured by libertarians are often deeply problematic in a way the positive freedoms aren't. Telling a starving man that cannot afford food that no-one can steal his food is spectacularly failing to resolve his woes. But as you say, positive freedoms of course do require some loss of freedom for others: to give that starving man food, outside charity, someone's stuff must be taken from them.
 

Seanchaidh

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I think the comparison of negative and positive freedoms is important.

Negative freedoms are sorts of rights of non-infringement: your right to not be assaulted, to have your property taken from you (tax is theft!), and so on. Positive freedoms are forms of empowerment - the right to have healthcare, accommodation, etc. One of the major movements in liberalism was towards a stronger notion of positive freedoms in the early 20th century, when classical liberalism failed to improve the lot of the poor in the way hoped. Obviously, a chunk of liberalism never moved, and hence the classical liberals and that branch of libertarianism.

Both forms of freedom can be important. But I think the view of negative freedoms favoured by libertarians are often deeply problematic in a way the positive freedoms aren't. Telling a starving man that cannot afford food that no-one can steal his food is spectacularly failing to resolve his woes. But as you say, positive freedoms of course do require some loss of freedom for others: to give that starving man food, outside charity, someone's stuff must be taken from them.
Not necessarily...

The state can simply invent money and pay it to someone so that they might buy food at the going market rate (or whatever else they might want to do with it). There is no theft, there; indeed, it's likely there isn't even any inflation given how much food just rots on shelves or is thrown away. It is possible that the existence of taxes might be necessary to make money worth anything to begin with, but that depends on no particular rate and has no particular relationship to handing out money so that people can eat. If the there is labor that is not utilized, the state simply handing out money will cause there to be more employment in sectors that have increases in sales as a result. The voluntaryist couldn't (in theory) be happier.

The primary reason to take people's stuff is to keep 'em from getting too much power over others.
 

Agema

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Not necessarily...

The state can simply invent money and pay it to someone so that they might buy food at the going market rate (or whatever else they might want to do with it). There is no theft, there; indeed, it's likely there isn't even any inflation given how much food just rots on shelves or is thrown away. It is possible that the existence of taxes might be necessary to make money worth anything to begin with, but that depends on no particular rate and has no particular relationship to handing out money so that people can eat. If the there is labor that is not utilized, the state simply handing out money will cause there to be more employment in sectors that have increases in sales as a result. The voluntaryist couldn't (in theory) be happier.

The primary reason to take people's stuff is to keep 'em from getting too much power over others.
I don't think that line would pass the average credible economist, whether they were left or right.

If the government spends about 40% of national GDP, you're suggesting it simply prints money worth an enormous percentage of the economy every year. That's undoubtedly going to end in massive annual inflation in the mid to high double digit percentages, and inflation is most definitely going to depress the value of a lot of people's income and some of their assets such that they may as well be taxed.
 

Eacaraxe

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The greatest lie in politics is to think the difference between left and right is chiefly economic freedom.
First, I'm talking about political epistemology and metanarrative. The fact you're coming back at me with this is evidence for the point -- political thought doesn't exist in a vacuum and is constrained by paradigm...in this case, neoliberalism. You think carnival barking and kabuki theater about culture wars isn't inherently economic?

Second, you're a damn fool if you actually believe that. You're going to argue six forms of capital other than financial and material don't exist, have economies of their own, and those economies don't interact? One doesn't even have to enter a discussion about intellectual, social, cultural, and political economies to find counter-evidence to your assertion in the age of "woke capitalism".

Welfare and philanthropy are nothing more than the exchange of financial and material capital for social, cultural, and political capital. That's the best-case scenario; nowadays it doesn't even exist on that level, it's a mediated financial investment with expected ROI. You think Bezos for example doesn't profit from parking Amazon stock in "charitable" DAF's where he controls shares' release into the market while simultaneously getting tax deductions?

Third, I'm going to be nice and play your game just to round the bases. Let's not talk about a "left-wing" issue, let's talk about a "right-wing" issue: religious freedom. Sure, right-wing politics is inherently monocultural, no arguments here -- but focused upon which policy drives to achieve monoculture, ethno-religious sovereignty or eliminating competing and hostile religions? The former necessitates decentralizing and devolving state power, the other the opposite.

No room to have your cake and eat it too, there. One has to make a decision as to what level of state power is necessary and appropriate to achieve ethnoreligious monoculture.

Where the Nazis stood on religious freedom should be undeniable and immediately obvious -- though despite this, for all the myopic and indiscriminate deployment of Martin Niemoller's poem, rarely is it asked who Martin Niemoller was, what his personal beliefs were, or what landed him in a concentration camp to begin with. Less so is the Nazis' stance on religious freedom stood virtually identical to Stalin's -- useful until it isn't.
 
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