How Problematic is "All Lives Matter?"

[Houseman]

Ok, this is just silly semantics.

Not when you're using statistics that don't make a distinction between "suicide by cop" and "killed while lying handcuffed face down" in order to prove your point

Some might call that disingenuous or even deliberately misleading.

 

[Houseman]

Body found in wreckage of pawnshop burned during George Floyd unrest

Tip led to search, months after building was set ablaze during riots.

www.startribune.com

I wonder if this person's life mattered?

 

[gorfias]

Ok, this is just silly semantics.

"Oh hey, because you didn't SPECIFICALLY say 'Innocent Black people killed on purpose or by accident by law enforcement', then CLEARLY you mean 'all black peoples lives inherently matter more than anyone else" is a REALLY eyebrow raising argument.

You'd have a better point if there weren't voices telling people to defund the police. Even calling 911 when you are in a true emergency is racist. Please read the official BLM website. A lot of well meaning people are part of this movement but the movement itself appears to be Marxist inspired and socially destructive. https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

 

[Aegix Drakan]

Please read the official BLM website.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Tell you what, when I get home from work today I'll take a look.

Even calling 911 when you are in a true emergency is racist.

I've literally never heard anyone saying that if you're being literally attacked, or sexually assaulted, or held at gunpoint, or are seeing your home being broken into by someone that you're a bigot for calling the cops, and if someone does say that, I'd have to ask them what the person is supposed to DO about their rights being violated.

The people calling the cops over stuff that's not an emergency or are making up emergencies, specifically when it involves a minority (see the growing number of karens caught on video calling cops on black people having a BBQ, or telling them to put their dog on a leash, etc) are doing something bigoted by calling the cops, though.

You'd have a better point if there weren't voices telling people to defund the police.

Literally everyone I've seen talking about defunding cops has said that with the meaning of "We use 'man with gun' as the go-to solution for far too much. We don't need a man with a gun to handle a mentally ill person having a breakdown, or a homeless person, or someone on mild drugs like pot. We want social workers and non-violent responses to those kinds of things, and use the cops only in situation where there's violence that needs to be stopped". That and they don't think the cops should be rolling up to a situation in army surplus armored jeeps or whatever.

Which, you know, I think is a VERY good idea.

Hell, even up here in Canada, where the cops aren't trained to see everything as a lethal threat, we've had incidents where a simple wellness check on someone has led to the cops either severely assaulting people or full on killing them. That is completely unacceptable.

A lot of well meaning people are part of this movement but the movement itself appears to be Marxist inspired and socially destructive.

Marxist in what way? The "Workers should own the means of production" way? The "all wealth should be equal" way?

Or the purposefully vague "cultural marxism" way that is used to mean "anything that ever challenges established norms or power in a way that makes us uncomfortable" way?

I'd also argue that people living in fear that anytime they're pulled over by a cop that they'll end up shot the second they reach for their ID is also pretty damn socially destructive.

But hey, maybe I'll read the site tonight and see the communist manifesto, or a demand for complete anarchy with zero law enforcement at all, who knows. I doubt it, though.

 

[Xprimentyl]

If you want to think that the police are just a pack of roving thugs looking to make your life worse, that way of thinking might get you killed.

And if you want to think the police are simply a benevolent group of faultless saints, that way of thinking might get me killed as well, and my killers will walk free.

This discussion is tiresome; this will be my last post here. The police need to be held to a higher standard, and that’s the long and short of it. It takes over 10 years to become a fully licensed doctor and save lives, but only 6 months to become a cop, given a gun and a badge and paid to ensure people behave the way you personally discern they should behave. Your life experience is different from any black people you know (and no, I don’t care to hear about any “black friends” you have.) You didn’t have to have “the talk.” And no, not the sex talk, I mean the talk wherein you’re told the police will treat you differently because of your race, and how to protect yourself when you engage with them. That talk didn’t come from parents fresh out of Civil Rights who saw their parents (if not themselves) unjustly treated for the most mundane of offenses if any offense was committed at all, i.e.: fire hoses, dogs, batons, etc. wielded by cops who probably had children who wanted to be just like their parents when they grew up and wield badges today. You think statistics are all one needs to speak to the root of the fundamental, black human experience, and you’re simply wrong, and it’s insulting.

 

[gorfias]

Tell you what, when I get home from work today I'll take a look.



I've literally never heard anyone saying that if you're being literally attacked, or sexually assaulted, or held at gunpoint, or are seeing your home being broken into by someone that you're a bigot for calling the cops, and if someone does say that, I'd have to ask them what the person is supposed to DO about their rights being violated.

The people calling the cops over stuff that's not an emergency or are making up emergencies, specifically when it involves a minority (see the growing number of karens caught on video calling cops on black people having a BBQ, or telling them to put their dog on a leash, etc) are doing something bigoted by calling the cops, though.



Literally everyone I've seen talking about defunding cops has said that with the meaning of "We use 'man with gun' as the go-to solution for far too much. We don't need a man with a gun to handle a mentally ill person having a breakdown, or a homeless person, or someone on mild drugs like pot. We want social workers and non-violent responses to those kinds of things, and use the cops only in situation where there's violence that needs to be stopped". That and they don't think the cops should be rolling up to a situation in army surplus armored jeeps or whatever.

Which, you know, I think is a VERY good idea.

Hell, even up here in Canada, where the cops aren't trained to see everything as a lethal threat, we've had incidents where a simple wellness check on someone has led to the cops either severely assaulting people or full on killing them. That is completely unacceptable.



Marxist in what way? The "Workers should own the means of production" way? The "all wealth should be equal" way?

Or the purposefully vague "cultural marxism" way that is used to mean "anything that ever challenges established norms or power in a way that makes us uncomfortable" way?

I'd also argue that people living in fear that anytime they're pulled over by a cop that they'll end up shot the second they reach for their ID is also pretty damn socially destructive.

But hey, maybe I'll read the site tonight and see the communist manifesto, or a demand for complete anarchy with zero law enforcement at all, who knows. I doubt it, though.

“We actually do have an ideological frame,” Cullors said. “Myself and Alicia are particularly trained organizers — we are trained Marxists. We are super versed on ideological theories…” @ about 1:20 .

In 2013, three radical Black organizers — Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi — created a Black-centered political will and movement building project called #BlackLivesMatter. https://blacklivesmatter.com/herstory/

"We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered. " Well, MEN are centered at being the ones shot and killed by cops. Men are about 10 times as likely to be homeless. 95% of combat deaths are men. 95% of work place deaths are male. What an odd thing: that 3 women formed this organization ostensibly about male issues. Wonder if she'll really free men of being centered in them.

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
The nuclear family is not a "requirement". And if you want to form a commune to collectively care for kids? To my knowledge, that is perfectly legal. Heck, the modern welfare system kinda does that, forcing men to endure a slowed economy, joblessness, lower wages to pay higher taxes that are used to socially disenfranchise (currently disproportionately black) men.

Again, I don't doubt that even most of the movement's rank and file are good meaning people. But the founding of the organization? These are collectivists and their ideas tend to end up being genocidal. "All Lives Matter".

 

[Houseman]

Your life experience is different from any black people you know (and no, I don’t care to hear about any “black friends” you have.) You didn’t have to have “the talk.” And no, not the sex talk, I mean the talk wherein you’re told the police will treat you differently because of your race, and how to protect yourself when you engage with them. That talk didn’t come from parents fresh out of Civil Rights who saw their parents (if not themselves) unjustly treated for the most mundane of offenses if any offense was committed at all, i.e.: fire hoses, dogs, batons, etc. wielded by cops who probably had children who wanted to be just like their parents when they grew up and wield badges today. You think statistics are all one needs to speak to the root of the fundamental, black human experience, and you’re simply wrong, and it’s insulting.

Except that I am black, and so are my parents.
For you to assume the color of my skin based on the content of my posts is a very good demonstration of casual racism.

I am Houseman. I am an individual with my own thoughts.

But I will admit that I don't have the experience that some of you have had with the police. I've lived in nice middle-class neighborhoods all my life. The only, singular, interaction I've ever had with the police is when I called them for help after my car had been stolen. I let the officer into my home, and we sat down at the dining room table and talked. Afterward, the officer gave me his card and left. I have nothing negative to say about that.

If you want to discard my opinions because of this, you can, it would just be a case of selection bias on your part, "only hearing what you want to hear".

I don't think that personal anecdotes or feelings should be driving movements, policy, or changes.
I would rather see facts, data, and science be in the driver's seat.

 

[Aegix Drakan]

Please read the official BLM website. https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

So I read through it. ...I....Don't see anything really objectionable there?

"We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered. " Well, MEN are centered at being the ones shot and killed by cops. Men are about 10 times as likely to be homeless. 95% of combat deaths are men. 95% of work place deaths are male. What an odd thing: that 3 women formed this organization ostensibly about male issues. Wonder if she'll really free men of being centered in them.

And right above that was "We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location. "

And below that was "We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts. "

So, your point seems, to me, to be some kind of gotcha along the lines of "You're 3 women, how much do you REALLY care about male issues, like how black MEN suffer more discrimination". Which completely overlooks a) That empathy exists, and b) That BLM raises their voices equally whether it's George Floyd's death (which kicked off this particular spate of protests) or Breonna Taylor's (I see at least one "Breonna Taylor's killers are still walking free. THEY SHOULDN'T BE" post on my timeline every day).

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

The nuclear family is not a "requirement". And if you want to form a commune to collectively care for kids? To my knowledge, that is perfectly legal.

First of all, LITERALLY right above that was: "We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work. "

So CLEARLY, to me, this is not a "We want kids to be raised in some sort of Commune". This is more of a "We need to look beyond just our families, and be a real community again, where everyone cares about each others kids" type statement.

Which makes sense. In our modern world, a lot of us tend to isolate and not really speak with our neighbors or form communal bonds. And those are kind of important, at least in the macro sense, because "we all live in a society" and should thus care about each other (at least in the basic sense of being ok with paying taxes that go into public programs to help those in need)

So no, I don't believe this is some sort of call to have people live in a communist commune type thing.

Heck, the modern welfare system kinda does that, forcing men to endure a slowed economy, joblessness, lower wages to pay higher taxes that are used to socially disenfranchise (currently disproportionately black) men.

Wait wait wait wait waaaaaiiiiiiiiiit.

What.

Flat WHAT

So hang on, hang on, let me see if I can deconstruct this so it makes sense.

The "modern welfare system kinda does that, forcing men to endure a slowed economy, joblessness, lower wages"? What? Dude, you realize Welfare exists in order to ASSIST people who are going through joblessness and low wages and other issues?

And you think WELFARE PROGRAMS are the CAUSE of those problems?

RIGHT, so it's the fault of the government giving people food stamps when their shitty wal-mart wage isn't enough to put food on the table...And NOT the fault of Wal-Mart who are being cheap profiteering assholes deliberately choosing to pay people less than a living wage so that they HAVE to go on food stamps to survive in the first place???

Mate, the entire state of late-stage capitalism (ie, Corporatism) is that large companies have more or less maxed out their potential market, and yet the shareholders want to keep seeing increased revenue, so the company has to do everything possible to save money, which includes paying their workers as little as possible.

If there were no welfare programs, would Wal-Mart pay more? Maybe juuuuust enough to be comparable to their bottom-tier salaries now when supplemented by government help. Which means nothing has changed, people are still making starvation wages.

You're aiming you ire at the wrong people. Those responsible for the situation are the companies who are deliberately paying their workers so little that they HAVE to go on welfare programs to survive.

Perhaps if your country raised the enforced minimum wage and tied it to the cost of living, they wouldn't NEED to be on those programs? Just a thought?

"All Lives Matter".

Glad you think that.

So I take it this means you're in favor of:

-a massive overhaul of policing, replacing most police response (for things like homelessness, wellness checks, etc) with social workers who are trained to de-escalate situations peacefully?

- demilitarizing the police so they don't show up with military hardware?

- Civilian oversight boards/juries for all police shootings, so that they can determine if the shooting was justified and punish those who used excessive force?

- Guaranteed healthcare for everyone, free at point of service?

- All medication being kept at an affordable price so that even people on minimum wage can afford their insulin?
- Affordable low-cost housing for everyone, and improves homeless shelters so that no one is forced to live on the street?

- Decriminalization of drug possession and an approach designed to help people overcome addiction instead of throwing them in prison and thus destroying any chance they have of finding decent employment in the future (and also does nothing to stop their addiction)?

- An end to all wars (and extrajudicial drone killings) your country is currently participating in, in countries that haven't even attacked you?

- A federally mandated living wage adjusted to your state's cost of living so that everyone who works a full time job can afford food, shelter and basic transportation?

- Tightened gun laws so that people suffering from severe mental illness or who have a record of violence are not able to get their hands on a semi-automatic rifle and a large amount of ammunition?


...You...ARE in favor of all those things, right? Because all of those things would save lives.

“We actually do have an ideological frame,” Cullors said. “Myself and Alicia are particularly trained organizers — we are trained Marxists. We are super versed on ideological theories…” @ about 1:20

Huh, what do you know, she DID say Marxist.

Alright so I have my eye on her. Unfortunately, I don't think I can ask her specifically what KIND of marxism she's talking about. The "Workers should own the means of production" way? The "literally all wealth should be equal" way? Or any other way that it tends to be used.

Either way, sure, alright, she said she's a Marxist. I'm going to keep an eye on that. If she does mean it in the communist sense, and actually starts saying she wants full on communism, I will be right there opposing that.

 

[ObsidianJones]

*snips*

Let me start out that I have little time or hope for most systems of government. I hold Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Democracy, Oligarchy, Autocracy, and all forms of Economic Systems/Governing styles in the same esteem. All will be faulty and be manipulated because they are all run by human beings.

Ok, now that's out of the way and I actually have no feelings but apathy for Marxism... So what?

So what if these people want to be Marxist? So what if they are looking for another governing style?

Understand that either way, this country is cancerous for anyone that is not apart of the select group of people. If America is intrinsically racist, letting it be how it has always been will be devastating for the minority population that lives here. The prejudiced answer is "What does it matter if 73% of the population is white?". If America is half as noble as their own PR says it is, that should be an unacceptable answer. I remember "All Men Created Equal" written somewhere around here...

But, if it is as you and other say, that the ills the minorities face are simply in the root of economic strife that is hoisted onto them... then that system is also flawed. And Devastating. And has more far reaching implications for all Americans because anyone can be poor at any second. This system that will let people die in this country when they have the means to treat them because their shareholders Research and Development needs that extra 735 dollars. Or that will allow rich schools to siphon money from poor schools. Or having to rely on food banks just to eat while working a full time job when one would have normally retired
.
Whether suffering due to racial bias or economic deprivation, why wouldn't the disillusioned look for what they would consider a better solution than the one they are presented with? Why should they listen to their Abuser's propaganda that this is the best way, and the best way just means they they must suffer? Would anyone else do that?

Again, I think any system of human rule will be eventually corrupted by some group's innate desire for more power or more resources, so I really don't hold Marxism or Communism in high esteem. But surely, even if you think Marxism and whatever came from the Devil himself... surely you can understand why a blighted group would look for the opposite ideals of who they consider their oppressors in order to counteract their lot in life, right?

 

[gorfias]

Let me start out that I have little time or hope for most systems of government. I hold Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Democracy, Oligarchy, Autocracy, and all forms of Economic Systems/Governing styles in the same esteem. All will be faulty and be manipulated because they are all run by human beings.

Ok, now that's out of the way and I actually have no feelings but apathy for Marxism... So what?

So what if these people want to be Marxist? So what if they are looking for another governing style?

Understand that either way, this country is cancerous for anyone that is not apart of the select group of people. If America is intrinsically racist, letting it be how it has always been will be devastating for the minority population that lives here. The prejudiced answer is "What does it matter if 73% of the population is white?". If America is half as noble as their own PR says it is, that should be an unacceptable answer. I remember "All Men Created Equal" written somewhere around here...

But, if it is as you and other say, that the ills the minorities face are simply in the root of economic strife that is hoisted onto them... then that system is also flawed. And Devastating. And has more far reaching implications for all Americans because anyone can be poor at any second. This system that will let people die in this country when they have the means to treat them because their shareholders Research and Development needs that extra 735 dollars. Or that will allow rich schools to siphon money from poor schools. Or having to rely on food banks just to eat while working a full time job when one would have normally retired
.
Whether suffering due to racial bias or economic deprivation, why wouldn't the disillusioned look for what they would consider a better solution than the one they are presented with? Why should they listen to their Abuser's propaganda that this is the best way, and the best way just means they they must suffer? Would anyone else do that?

Again, I think any system of human rule will be eventually corrupted by some group's innate desire for more power or more resources, so I really don't hold Marxism or Communism in high esteem. But surely, even if you think Marxism and whatever came from the Devil himself... surely you can understand why a blighted group would look for the opposite ideals of who they consider their oppressors in order to counteract their lot in life, right?

Some systems really are worse than others. I am told that I have no relatives in the Ukraine (where my grand parents came from) as they were all torture murdered thanks to Marxism. I work with a Cambodian, whose family was slaughtered by Khmer Rouge. He was lucky to have survived and escaped to the US where he is earning more than median income, even though his English is not good. I used to work in a city that was largely populated by Cambodians. One of my team, we called, "Mr. Wonderful" became a small business consultant. He was an "ear witness" to his families murder by the Khmer Rouge. (He was hiding and heard all of them shot to death). The human rights abuses we're hearing about in China and North Korea are shocking and I know of no parallel in the modern world.

In recent history, Rwanda is probably the worst genocide of which I am aware that was not tied to Marxism or economic system, but, I think tribalism. You'll find arguments about why Nazi Germany was engaged in genocides. Leftist collectivism was part of it. A lot of other factors make him a right winger. Hitler was no capitalist libertarian.

Is humanity in a never ending cycle? That we go from tyranny to freedom, become soft and decadent, allow tyranny to rise up again? Resistance to Marxism is vital to freedom.

We have a system where someone who is unskilled, can get off a boat from some 3rd world hell hole, barely be able to speak English, and within a single generation, start out earning native born US citizens. That is a system worth fighting for.

Someone earlier posted that 60 years is not enough to expect ADOS to catch up to people who are not. I disagree. Not to make light of the traumas that community experiences, but that I think time is not the pertinent factor given my own family's experience, my coworkers, etc., but the direction we have taken. My experience tells me the organizers of BLM want to go in a monstrous direction, even if such a desire is comprehensible due ongoing problems in this society. They should be exposed and resisted.

 

[Buyetyen]

Not to make light of the traumas that community experiences, but that I think time is not the pertinent factor given my own family's experience, my coworkers, etc., but the direction we have taken. My experience tells me the organizers of BLM want to go in a monstrous direction, even if such a desire is comprehensible due ongoing problems in this society. They should be exposed and resisted.

"Not to make light of other people's suffering and traumas, but I'm totally going to anyway based on personal anecdote."

 

[gorfias]

"Not to make light of other people's suffering and traumas, but I'm totally going to anyway based on personal anecdote."

Are you really going to try to write my observations cannot be backed up by statistics? That what I am observing is backed up by stats already widely known? EDIT: BTW: Nice way to make light of other people's lived experiences. The suffering my friends, family and coworkers endured and the hardships over which they prevailed. Shameful.

 

[Buyetyen]

Are you really going to try to write my observations cannot be backed up by statistics? That what I am observing is backed up by stats already widely known? EDIT: BTW: Nice way to make light of other people's lived experiences. The suffering my friends, family and coworkers endured and the hardships over which they prevailed. Shameful.

You didn't give any stats. You gave a personal anecdote to explain why you don't respect minority communities. You then edited to paint yourself as the victim like you do every time somebody calls you out for a bad argument.

 

[gorfias]

You didn't give any stats. You gave a personal anecdote to explain why you don't respect minority communities. You then edited to paint yourself as the victim like you do every time somebody calls you out for a bad argument.

Doubling down on being wrong? What bad argument? Why do I need to provide stats when everyone should already know the basic truth I'm pointing out? You appear to not understand what disrespect is. When you imply my coworker's family being slaughtered in front of him is irrelevant to you that's disrespect. When I point out that I think the problems in the black community have less to do with time and more to do with direction, that is making an observation that I hope can be helpful. I do not care if it is 60 years or 1,000. Gangsta culture that tells hard working black people that they are "acting white", and shaming them, for instance, is wrong headed. That we know, within a single generation, one can greatly improve their way of life in a free society is simply a fact.

 

[Houseman]

I'd like to see @Buyetyen join the discussion in earnest, rather than just show up every now and then to take potshots or throw down a zinger.
More perspectives in this discussion are always welcomed. So please, tell us what you really think. What do you think about "Gangsta culture"? What do you think contributes the most to the disproportionate crime rates of the black community? What do you think should be done to solve these issues quickly, yet safely?

 

[Xprimentyl]

I know my last post was supposed to be my last, but your gaslighting… oh, your gaslighting…

Except that I am black, and so are my parents.

For you to assume the color of my skin based on the content of my posts is a very good demonstration of casual racism.

Yes, I assumed your race because you don’t have to look far to find a black person with a reticent belief in the policing in their communities, but to hear a black person speak as if it’s a complete nonissue is baffling at least. Racist? Not at all, not even casually; ask my white girlfriend. So that opinion/judgment I will fervently discard per your permission below. Funny how you’d not disclose the “fact” you’re black (if true) until 9 pages into this thread. Didn’t think that’d be relevant? Oh yeah, “facts and data.”

I am Houseman. I am an individual with my own thoughts.

But I will admit that I don't have the experience that some of you have had with the police. I've lived in nice middle-class neighborhoods all my life. The only, singular, interaction I've ever had with the police is when I called them for help after my car had been stolen. I let the officer into my home, and we sat down at the dining room table and talked. Afterward, the officer gave me his card and left. I have nothing negative to say about that.

If you want to discard my opinions because of this, you can, it would just be a case of selection bias on your part, "only hearing what you want to hear".

I don't think that personal anecdotes or feelings should be driving movements, policy, or changes.

I would rather see facts, data, and science be in the driver's seat.

But when you have enough personal anecdotes and feelings all pointing to the same “nonissue,” does it not merit at least an acknowledgement? Thousand of people telling the same story just might have some substance to it. You’re fortunate, suddenly “being black” and not having had the kind of engagements with the police many of us have had; that doesn’t mean it’s not a systemic problem; your own personal, anecdotal evidence is no more valid than anyone else’s. But your facts and data? Who’s reporting those facts and data? The same system that is biased against and over-polices black people or some omniscient, objective source devoid of any bias to which you’ve unique access?

 

[Houseman]

Racist? Not at all, not even casually; ask my white girlfriend

I find it amusing how you were, just not that long ago saying "and no, I don’t care to hear about any “black friends” you have."
But the moment the tables are turned, you introduce me to your "white girlfriend".

Funny how you’d not disclose the “fact” you’re black (if true) until 9 pages into this thread. Didn’t think that’d be relevant?

Correct, it's not relevant.
Why do you think that the color of one's skin is relevant to an online argument?

But when you have enough personal anecdotes and feelings all pointing to the same “nonissue,” does it not merit at least an acknowledgement?

Sure, if you can compile those anecdotes and feelings into a published, peer-reviewed study... which people are actively doing, right now.

not having had the kind of engagements with the police many of us have had; that doesn’t mean it’s not a systemic problem

I'm not using my personal anecdote to claim that it isn't a systemic problem. I'm not even disputing that it is a systemic problem. I just disagree with BLM over what the cause of the problem is, and how to solve it, among other things.

your own personal, anecdotal evidence is no more valid than anyone else’s

I've never claimed otherwise.
What was that about gaslighting, again?

But your facts and data? Who’s reporting those facts and data? The same system that is biased against and over-polices black people or some omniscient, objective source devoid of any bias to which you’ve unique access?

I get my data from the same system that reports that "black people are 3x as likely to get killed by the police". You know, the same system that is biased against and over-polices black people. Really decent of them to give accurate reports, even though it might make them look bad, don't you think?

So you can't have it both ways. Either you discard the "3x as likely" claim as well, in which case, you lose your justification for BLM, or you accept all of it.
Which is it?

the “fact” you’re black (if true)

suddenly “being black”

Would you like me to prove it? I can post a video of me showing my arm against my monitor, showing who I'm logged in as, if the color of my skin is that much of a big deal to you.

Maybe I can get my skull and nose measured with calipers like some kind of Nazi Aryan purity test? Would that help put your mind at ease?

 

[Xprimentyl]

I find it amusing how you were, just not that long ago saying "and no, I don’t care to hear about any “black friends” you have."
But the moment the tables are turned, you introduce me to your "white girlfriend".

I didn't accuse you of "casual racism." My white girlfriend has nothing to do with my views, but my opinions on the issue of police treatment of black people as a black person hold a perspective that is relevant. If we're the same with differing opinions as you imply, then it's helpful to know what side of the issue you have stakes in. Pulling an M. Night Shyamalan twist 9 pages deep speaks to your "gotcha" opinionism and just how much time I've wasted speaking to your points. That's on me.

Correct, it's not relevant.
Why do you think that the color of one's skin is relevant to an online argument?

See above. Or acknowledge that black persons are oft held to a different standard, and their opinions on police engagement might merit some credence beyond what the simple facts and data allow.

I'm not using my personal anecdote to claim that it isn't a systemic problem. I'm not even disputing that it is a systemic problem. I just disagree with BLM over what the cause of the problem is, and how to solve it, among other things.

And you're free to feel that way. But expecting other black people whose experience has been routinely different from yours to sate themselves with the facts and data that make it "their fault" is just wrong.

I get my data from the same system that reports that "black people are 3x as likely to get killed by the police". You know, the same system that is biased against and over-polices black people. Really decent of them to give accurate reports, even though it might make them look bad, don't you think?

So you can't have it both ways. Either you discard the "3x as likely" claim as well, in which case, you lose your justification for BLM, or you accept all of it.
Which is it?

"I smacked her because she talked back." Reason does not equate to justification. Ask yourself WHY cops find themselves 3 times as likely to kill black people. I saw a video of a white guy (high on meth, I believe,) approaching cops while yielding a machete, swinging it in a clearly aggressive, intent-to-harm manner. He was peacefully arrested. Floyd passed off a fake $20 bill and got his neck knelt on for over 8 minutes and died.

Would you like me to prove it? I can post a video of me showing my arm against my monitor, showing who I'm logged in as, if the color of my skin is that much of a big deal to you.

Maybe I can get my skull and nose measured with calipers like some kind of Nazi Aryan purity test? Would that help put your mind at ease?

Not necessary; I really don't care either way. Your point, while a valid one, doesn't address the near-term problem of bigoted people being hired to positions that empower them to abuse people with potentially lethal outcomes.

 

[Houseman]

but my opinions on the issue of police treatment of black people as a black person hold a perspective that is relevant.

It's only relevant in that provides context to your personal feelings and anecdotes. That's it.
Facts, statistics, logic and reasoning are entirely unaffected by the color of one's skin.

But expecting other black people whose experience has been routinely different from yours to sate themselves with the facts and data that make it "their fault" is just wrong.

I'm not expecting anything from anybody. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink.

"I smacked her because she talked back." Reason does not equate to justification. Ask yourself WHY cops find themselves 3 times as likely to kill black people.

Why do cops find themselves 3 times a likely to kill black people? Because black people commit 3 times the violent crime (relative to representative population). You've heard the "despite being 13% of the population..." line, right? That's why.

Your point, while a valid one, doesn't address the near-term problem of bigoted people being hired to positions that empower them to abuse people with potentially lethal outcomes.

Neither does burning down a pawn shop, killing someone in the process.

 

[Buyetyen]

Why do I need to provide stats when everyone should already know the basic truth I'm pointing out?

Because when you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. If you're too lazy to cite the stats you claim vindicate, then I am under no obligation to take your claims seriously. If you had the empirical data, you would have lead with it. Instead you whinged about how unfair it is that nobody automatically take you at your word.

When you imply my coworker's family being slaughtered in front of him is irrelevant to you that's disrespect.

So I implied something based on a piece of information you never initially disclosed? You're not very good at this.

When I point out that I think the problems in the black community have less to do with time and more to do with direction, that is making an observation that I hope can be helpful. I do not care if it is 60 years or 1,000. Gangsta culture that tells hard working black people that they are "acting white", and shaming them, for instance, is wrong headed. That we know, within a single generation, one can greatly improve their way of life in a free society is simply a fact.

It's also a trite, facile argument that has been repeated for decades and deliberately avoids addressing systemic injustice and inequality that allows toxic mindsets to flourish.