2019-2020 coronavirus pandemic (Vaccination 2021 Edition)
- Thread starter McElroy
- Start date
He was the one who tried, and failed, to say that the coronavirus is worse than air pollution. I just pointed out that he was wrong.
I said no such thing. I brought up how infection and death from COVID is a more urgent issue than the fact cars pollute. If not to a reasonable person, then at least in a thread specifically dedicated to discussing the COVID pandemic. Don't misquote me.
On topic: It's day 125 of quarantine in Caba and I'm sick of it. All of us are. Every other day the news covers some kind of clandestine gathering. Anything from birthdays and weddings to fucking cockfights. Going out or socializing is strictly verboten and the fines are ridiculous. Meanwhile the economy is fucked beyond the usual and something like half the population has lost their job or gone bankrupt. It's a frustrating situation and I don't see an end anytime soon. And every time that frustration starts winning me over I remind myself that, statistically amazingly, I personally knew the 5th person to die from COVID in this country. It's real.
Argentina is #20 in confirmed cases of COVID with a little over 100k and simultaneously has one of the lowest indexes in testing. Alarming as that ratio looks, it also has one of the fewest mortality rates - a little over 2k so far, but growing. I chalk it to adopting total quarantine early on, but then that means 4 months later we're still waiting for the fabled "peak" of the pandemic as we try to flatten the curve. It's a vicious cycle: the more quarantine stretches, the longer the virus will be around infecting/killing people.
Bolsonaro is a retard, but his 9 year old daughter has nothing to do with it and no kid deserves to lose their parents. Anyway, this is great for him, he gets to catch corona, feels nothing, then continues with his just a flu, bro.
I don't know if the public transport is any good wherever you're from, but right now it seems pretty obvious that I'm safer in my car than crammed in a bus with 70 other people. I mean, it was safer even before corona.
Sorry but her dad is garbage and his death will improve many many more lives than it harms. Furthermore, given his macho bullshit, you’ve little certainty he won’t wind up abusing her in various ways as fascists have a tendency to do. Growing up without a father is possibly an improvement for her as well.
How wide portion of the country thinks the measures are justified? You've got a democracy there after all, so if the average person feels this screwed them over it's bye-bye to the current government come the next election.
The discussion about pollution's death toll is an interesting one, because it's something we accept politically (similarly to most traffic deaths). And moreover the old people that die to pollution are the ones in danger to die to coronavirus. Countries like the US and Brazil are practically letting the virus do a sweep while Argentina will put tough measures on the table to ensure they've done everything. At this point in time, a vaccine is maybe about a year away. Politicians could accept that it's just an extra layer of smog when it comes to people dying.
Quarantine was adopted favorably early on but 4 months in the discontent is growing (some rioting here and there, some disobedience but nothing too extreme) and the concensus is take that the government has neglected the country's economy for the sake of enforcing a quarantine with no end in sight. There's been some back-and-forth overall with the strictness of the quarantine too. Small businesses open or close every other month, whether government says they're allowed or not. Government also tried to expropriate a major company, which sent everybody into panic mode.
It's hard to argue with the low death rate though and the government makes the most out of pointing out the mortality in USA and Brazil and Europe in general. We had general elections last November so the president's brand new. Any successes are celebrated as part of the new management while any shortcomings or mishandlings are simply blamed on the previous government and the state it left the country in. That extreme divisiveness USA has been freshly experiencing with Trump, we've had that for 20 years now. And counting.
Yeah, speaking from experience as an offspring of a person with similar fascist tendencies and sole belief in aggression and violence as the solution to almost anything with no capability of wanting to improve or empathise, the damage they do to people around them is immeasurable even without that worrying level of responsibility. Without a doubt it would have saved so much harm if they had just died. The other offspring voices exactly the same thoughts. All this "but think of their kids" is detatched insincere bullshit.
True, but sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
And frankly, Bolsonaro's 9-year-old daughter will probable have fewer adverse consequences from him dying with all that family power and wealth still behind her, than tens of thousands of Brazilians losing parents in favelas.
Not least because I seriously doubt Bolsonaro pays her a lot of attention anyway - people in his position are usually busy powermongering and leave everything to the mother and nannies anyway. Never mind that men who regularly change wives and settle on ones thirty years younger when they're approaching sixty doesn't say to me "healthy attitudes towards women".
Well, sure, but it's not a competition. The reduction of air pollution is a direct consequence of quarantine, but it also acts as a demonstration of the kind of drastic actions we need to take in order to get air pollution (as well as the climate impact) under control.
So yes, the media should be talking about this interrelationship, because the current situation provides a unique and very valuable dataset which could be used to save many lives in future, as well as protecting the planet.
Also worth mentioning that higher levels of air pollution leave the population more susceptible to respiratory infection. Which during a pandemic is kind of a big deal.
There can be a middle ground. The virus is relatively benign for those under 60 without serious underlying health complications. Even 60 is a wide margin as it's mostly 80 that is at highest risk which is the average life expectancy. I wouldn't count on a vaccine or antivirals to be population wide available within a year. And even then a year is a long time for some economies to be on life support. You also have to consider if quarantine measures have any significant results on total deaths on a period of, say, 5 years. If most people who died of covid are already old and sick then coronavirus might have shortened their lives with a relative short amount of time. You have to consider then if the benefit outweigh the costs. It would be much more advisable to have specific policies for those at-risk than these indiscriminate lockdowns that might as well be totally for naught anyway. Governments have to plan for atleast a decade.
Argentina is 66 billion in foreign debt with a worthless currency and on it's way to it's ninth bankruptcy. If 'tough measures' put them on the way of Venezuela the long-term effects will be much more disastrous than covid. It's also unlikely the IMF will be standing ready with another bag of money now that the U.S. is heading for a major recession.
I'd say close airports and borders. International traffic only for essential and industry. Keep social distance in public spaces where low risk and high risk meet. Promote working from home as much as possible. No big events where one sick person can infect thousands of others. You could have dedicated care for those most vulnerable. These measures alone should keep it down to an acceptable risk. You need to have some kind of balance that people can live with for a longer time. It's not really in the human condition to remain hyper vigilant for an indefinite amount of time so it's best for any kind of long-term measures to be as unobtrusive as possible.
USA
I am not sure what you are rambling on about here. Could you please quote my post where I stated anything about injecting eyeballs, as I do not recall ever stating such.
Isn't that what I have been stating for months now? I tried to explain this early on, as this is not actually new information as the video suggests, but we have known this to be the case since late February, early March when we had already traced it back to Guangdong and not Wuhan, and that we were dealing with a more easily transmissible form of the virus in Italy and New York than we were dealing with on the cruise ships.
OT:
So here we are now in July and everything is a huge bumbled mess in the US that is only going to get worse due to the poor decisions of our government here. Why is it we are STILL begging our president to use the defense production act to make make masks, disinfectant, and basic necessities available to the public this many months in due to him doing NOTHING to resolve this? This is going to get so much worse if they open on campus schools with this escalating like it is already and not ensuring all households have access to these very basic things. Here are the reasons why:
1) Only 27% at most of those over 60 in the US live alone or with their spouse only( we only have partial and old data on this, since the pandemic began and so many people have lost their jobs, this has only gotten worse as more have had to move back in with their parents). The vast majority of the elderly in the US live with their family, that includes grandchildren. This means that those vulnerable families who have been isolating this entire time will now be forcefully exposed during a time where many of our hospitals are already over capacity. There is no way to send children back to campuses without exposing their other household members. This affects the majority of the population, not the minority. Lawmakers have been ignorantly treating vast majority of vulnerable populations like they are the exception, when this is actually the rule. They will only be able to shelter an extremely small portion of the vulnerable population and be exposing the majority of those most at risk through their current plans.
2) The vast majority of those with medical conditions and disabilities of all ages necessarily live with other family members due to needing care givers, and not being able to provide for themselves as the US does not provide the majority of those with medical conditions non family caregivers due to the deplorable state of healthcare and lack of government provided safety net in the US. This means that when children return to school, not only will they be exposing the majority of the elderly population that has been sheltering this entire time, they will now expose the vast majority with life threatening medical conditions as well. Due to the hospitals already being overwhelmed, many will not be able to access the treatment necessary for their survival for both the COVID-19 Induced complications, but also not being able to receive the other medical necessary treatments they need to address their other medical conditions.
3)The majority of people with preexisting conditions in the general population are not aware they have them, this includes children, parents and teachers as well. Most preexisting conditions are actually undiagnosed, as it takes a patient taking a good number of steps for a diagnosis to even happen in most cases and people generally do not do that until the conditions become severe enough to interfere with their daily life. Until you receive a proper diagnosis, which can prove difficult to obtain in the US due to the hoops one must jump through set up by insurers to obtain proper testing to receive a diagnosis in the first place, you are simply not aware of what underlying conditions you may have at all. Often, underlying health conditions are only discovered by accident when being treated for something else entirely. Due to COVID-19, many parents, teachers, and children will only find out that they themselves are a vulnerable population after they are actually infected with COVID-19 and are being treated, thus making it impossible to shelter them in advance.
4)The reason why there is in an increase in flu, strep, and other easily spread viruses and bacteria in the fall is due to schools reopening and the way campuses necessarily are designed to increase the spread. It is impossible to reduce the spread of these viruses in a school environment in the US due to the way the system is designed in the first place. Most schools in the US are underfunded overcrowded already. many cannot afford the basic classroom needs to be able to properly educate the children let alone have the funding to build more schools and classrooms necessary to be able to socially distance and reduce the spread. The general public also often make the mistake of looking at the student to teacher ratio as a gauge of how many students there are per classroom, but not all teachers that are counted actually have classrooms, for example, even though the student teacher ratio of a local high school is 15:1 , they currently have 30+ students per classroom, and are having to already utilize portable buildings and other locations at the school such as cafeteria, gym auditorium ect in order to hold classes, so those will not be available resources to be able to reduce classroom size. There is no possible way to reduce class sizes by spreading out to the cafeteria, gyms ect, because those are ALREADY in use. They usually do not build new schools here until the old schools are well exceeding capacity, and even then, often voters vote down building new schools because they do not want the tax increases leaving the school extremely overcrowded and underfunded due to way school funding is provided in the US. Most of the schools in the US simply do not have the money to even increase cleaning, purchasing of hand sanitizers masks or other protective measures at all. Where is this funding supposed to come from and who is providing it for schools to be able to make any changes at all here?
5)The majority of the general population is still unable to walk into a store here and buy disinfectant, Isopropyl alcohol, hand sanitizer, sanitizing wipes, respirators or masks and other basic necessities to protect themselves even if they were able to afford to do so. Due to so many being out of work right now, even if they could afford to do so, they still do not even have access to these things because the federal government did not take the appropriate steps early on, or even now to ensure they would have access or that we will even have access in the months to come. The supply chain is horribly broken and the government has been beyond incompetent at this point. Opening campuses before having these vital necessities being provided to every member of every community that opens is going to directly result in greatly increasing the number of people that will succumb severe illness that will result in long term organ damage, permanent disability, amputations and deaths. It is extremely reckless and irresponsible to expect to be able to open campuses without providing the communities with what they need to do so. Until they fix the supply chain, they cannot just move ahead with plans like they have already done so. They are trying to push ahead skipping the necessary steps to be able to do so. That will only result in disaster. With disaster in this case meaning increasing disability and deaths, this should be considered criminal neglect at this point and that governments pushing for this to happen this way should be held criminally and financially responsible to the families of those affected this. Of course that does not bring back the lives lost due to their incompetence, but we should not allow them to be able to cause these deaths without repercussion as they are currently attempting to do.
6) More young adults actually live with their parents in the US than any other time:
www.npr.org
This has been increasing, not decreasing already prior to the pandemic. We have had a steady increase in homelessness for years now and due to the current crisis, this is about to become extreme. Due to the pandemic, the already existing affordable housing shortage has only gotten worse, and we are also about to be hit with a mass eviction and foreclosure crisis due to those unemployed and underemployed not being able to pay the back rent and mortgages that have been piling up due to pandemic lay offs.
www.cnbc.com
We are actually getting hit from numerous directions on this, as we are having the whole unresolved "Generation X" jobs and savings crisis hit us at the same as the Pandemic. Many families never recovered from the whole 2008 banking crisis and have slowly been bleeding out over the last decade, so that in combination with the current Pandemic financial storm is going to be beyond devastating. We have young adults trying to move back in with their parents, while the parents are in the process of losing their homes as well. So where are the parents supposed to go when they already have grandma and their adult children living with them when they lose their home too?
So here we are now in July and everything is a huge bumbled mess in the US that is only going to get worse due to the poor decisions of our government here. Why is it we are STILL begging our president to use the defense production act to make make masks, disinfectant, and basic necessities available to the public this many months in due to him doing NOTHING to resolve this? This is going to get so much worse if they open on campus schools with this escalating like it is already and not ensuring all households have access to these very basic things. Here are the reasons why:
1) Only 27% at most of those over 60 in the US live alone or with their spouse only( we only have partial and old data on this, since the pandemic began and so many people have lost their jobs, this has only gotten worse as more have had to move back in with their parents). The vast majority of the elderly in the US live with their family, that includes grandchildren. This means that those vulnerable families who have been isolating this entire time will now be forcefully exposed during a time where many of our hospitals are already over capacity. There is no way to send children back to campuses without exposing their other household members. This affects the majority of the population, not the minority. Lawmakers have been ignorantly treating vast majority of vulnerable populations like they are the exception, when this is actually the rule. They will only be able to shelter an extremely small portion of the vulnerable population and be exposing the majority of those most at risk through their current plans.
2) The vast majority of those with medical conditions and disabilities of all ages necessarily live with other family members due to needing care givers, and not being able to provide for themselves as the US does not provide the majority of those with medical conditions non family caregivers due to the deplorable state of healthcare and lack of government provided safety net in the US. This means that when children return to school, not only will they be exposing the majority of the elderly population that has been sheltering this entire time, they will now expose the vast majority with life threatening medical conditions as well. Due to the hospitals already being overwhelmed, many will not be able to access the treatment necessary for their survival for both the COVID-19 Induced complications, but also not being able to receive the other medical necessary treatments they need to address their other medical conditions.
3)The majority of people with preexisting conditions in the general population are not aware they have them, this includes children, parents and teachers as well. Most preexisting conditions are actually undiagnosed, as it takes a patient taking a good number of steps for a diagnosis to even happen in most cases and people generally do not do that until the conditions become severe enough to interfere with their daily life. Until you receive a proper diagnosis, which can prove difficult to obtain in the US due to the hoops one must jump through set up by insurers to obtain proper testing to receive a diagnosis in the first place, you are simply not aware of what underlying conditions you may have at all. Often, underlying health conditions are only discovered by accident when being treated for something else entirely. Due to COVID-19, many parents, teachers, and children will only find out that they themselves are a vulnerable population after they are actually infected with COVID-19 and are being treated, thus making it impossible to shelter them in advance.
4)The reason why there is in an increase in flu, strep, and other easily spread viruses and bacteria in the fall is due to schools reopening and the way campuses necessarily are designed to increase the spread. It is impossible to reduce the spread of these viruses in a school environment in the US due to the way the system is designed in the first place. Most schools in the US are underfunded overcrowded already. many cannot afford the basic classroom needs to be able to properly educate the children let alone have the funding to build more schools and classrooms necessary to be able to socially distance and reduce the spread. The general public also often make the mistake of looking at the student to teacher ratio as a gauge of how many students there are per classroom, but not all teachers that are counted actually have classrooms, for example, even though the student teacher ratio of a local high school is 15:1 , they currently have 30+ students per classroom, and are having to already utilize portable buildings and other locations at the school such as cafeteria, gym auditorium ect in order to hold classes, so those will not be available resources to be able to reduce classroom size. There is no possible way to reduce class sizes by spreading out to the cafeteria, gyms ect, because those are ALREADY in use. They usually do not build new schools here until the old schools are well exceeding capacity, and even then, often voters vote down building new schools because they do not want the tax increases leaving the school extremely overcrowded and underfunded due to way school funding is provided in the US. Most of the schools in the US simply do not have the money to even increase cleaning, purchasing of hand sanitizers masks or other protective measures at all. Where is this funding supposed to come from and who is providing it for schools to be able to make any changes at all here?
5)The majority of the general population is still unable to walk into a store here and buy disinfectant, Isopropyl alcohol, hand sanitizer, sanitizing wipes, respirators or masks and other basic necessities to protect themselves even if they were able to afford to do so. Due to so many being out of work right now, even if they could afford to do so, they still do not even have access to these things because the federal government did not take the appropriate steps early on, or even now to ensure they would have access or that we will even have access in the months to come. The supply chain is horribly broken and the government has been beyond incompetent at this point. Opening campuses before having these vital necessities being provided to every member of every community that opens is going to directly result in greatly increasing the number of people that will succumb severe illness that will result in long term organ damage, permanent disability, amputations and deaths. It is extremely reckless and irresponsible to expect to be able to open campuses without providing the communities with what they need to do so. Until they fix the supply chain, they cannot just move ahead with plans like they have already done so. They are trying to push ahead skipping the necessary steps to be able to do so. That will only result in disaster. With disaster in this case meaning increasing disability and deaths, this should be considered criminal neglect at this point and that governments pushing for this to happen this way should be held criminally and financially responsible to the families of those affected this. Of course that does not bring back the lives lost due to their incompetence, but we should not allow them to be able to cause these deaths without repercussion as they are currently attempting to do.
6) More young adults actually live with their parents in the US than any other time:
For First Time In 130 Years, More Young Adults Live With Parents Than With Partners
Living with Mom and/or Dad is more popular than any other form of living arrangement among Americans ages 18-34, the Pew Research Center says.
www.npr.org
This has been increasing, not decreasing already prior to the pandemic. We have had a steady increase in homelessness for years now and due to the current crisis, this is about to become extreme. Due to the pandemic, the already existing affordable housing shortage has only gotten worse, and we are also about to be hit with a mass eviction and foreclosure crisis due to those unemployed and underemployed not being able to pay the back rent and mortgages that have been piling up due to pandemic lay offs.
Looming evictions may soon make 28 million homeless in U.S., expert says
"We have never seen this extent of eviction in such a truncated amount of time in our history," housing expert Emily Benfer said.
We are actually getting hit from numerous directions on this, as we are having the whole unresolved "Generation X" jobs and savings crisis hit us at the same as the Pandemic. Many families never recovered from the whole 2008 banking crisis and have slowly been bleeding out over the last decade, so that in combination with the current Pandemic financial storm is going to be beyond devastating. We have young adults trying to move back in with their parents, while the parents are in the process of losing their homes as well. So where are the parents supposed to go when they already have grandma and their adult children living with them when they lose their home too?
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Apprently the federal Chamber of Commerce persuaded him not to. They made the case that the DPA was "unnecessary red tape," and that companies would of course meet demand in the interest of a free market, you know, like they've never done in history. The real goal is now obvious: create artificial scarcity to drive up prices and force hospitals to compete in bidding wars.
Mind, this is not the first time the CoC has pulled shit like this. They've fought every effort to transition to renewable energy for decades. They sided with the banksters in the 2008 housing crisis. Where ever it is possible to prioritize profit over the welfare of the citizens and the state itself, the Chamber will do it every time.
To be fair, that is its job: to represent the corporatest and shilliest of corporate shilling.
It's the job of government to sometimes say to it "Thank you for your concern, but go take a long walk off a short pier."
Yeah, you're right, that wasn't you, that was Saelune. Sorry for mixing you up.
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Why would you even bring up Saelune? She was banned way before this thread even started.