Bernie/Biden task force presents suggestions

crimson5pheonix

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Don't preface your statements "respectfully" and then say shit like that.

Nor have the colossal arrogance to assume you have some privileged insight into how the world works, such that people who disagree with you must necessarily be stupid. You're talking to load of generally reasonably smart, well-informed people who are perfectly capable of forming reasonable assessments of the world. It is not contemptible to take the pragmatic view that a flawed option is still a better than a totally broken one, and more progress will made by trying to working through with it than absenteeing oneself until exactly the right thing arrives.
Maybe if this wasn't exactly what happened before. Eacaraxe is exactly right that under a Democrat president a lot of the worst aspects of American policy get ignored by the same people who are now distressed about Trump. And if we're on the subject of assumptions and arrogance, continuously bashing progressives for wanting progressive candidates and policies by saying they're waiting for a "perfect candidate" or whatever bullshit comes up is the continuous arrogance of the privileged who aren't suffering under the conditions perpetuated by those "compromise" choices.

Like how the Democrats now are throwing Cuba under a bus because "It's just not the right time to help".


So if you're going to complain about other people being arrogant, get the splinter out of your own eye first.
 

Zeke davis

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Maybe if this wasn't exactly what happened before. Eacaraxe is exactly right that under a Democrat president a lot of the worst aspects of American policy get ignored by the same people who are now distressed about Trump. And if we're on the subject of assumptions and arrogance, continuously bashing progressives for wanting progressive candidates and policies by saying they're waiting for a "perfect candidate" or whatever bullshit comes up is the continuous arrogance of the privileged who aren't suffering under the conditions perpetuated by those "compromise" choices.

Like how the Democrats now are throwing Cuba under a bus because "It's just not the right time to help".


So if you're going to complain about other people being arrogant, get the splinter out of your own eye first.
There's a difference between saying that and saying "People like you".
Agema felt insulted but probably doesn't deny that people ignore problems in policy due to partisanship.
 

crimson5pheonix

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There's a difference between saying that and saying "People like you".
Agema felt insulted but probably doesn't deny that people ignore problems in policy due to partisanship.
He also, I think, got Eacaraxe's meaning wrong. He didn't call people like him stupid. He said ignorant, and if Eac wants to correct me he absolutely can, but ignorant is the right word here. It's not a question of intelligence, it's a question of being ill-informed. As in, there will simply be far less information about these terrible policies under Biden than under Trump. Even being informed will be harder, and it's likely a lot of the people backing Biden just won't try to be informed, as they'll see Biden as a victory, a return to the golden days of Obama, who locked kids in cages at the border and drone striked with something like a 20% accuracy rate.
 

Silvanus

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And if we're on the subject of assumptions and arrogance, continuously bashing progressives for wanting progressive candidates and policies by saying they're waiting for a "perfect candidate" or whatever bullshit comes up is the continuous arrogance of the privileged who aren't suffering under the conditions perpetuated by those "compromise" choices.
OK, who here has actually bashed progressives "for wanting progressive candidates"?

Myself and Agema have both stated support for approaches further to the "left" than Biden in various threads. Obviously I can't speak for Agema, but I argued in favour of Sanders getting the nomination.

This is a dispute about strategy. And it's being approached with some stunning hostility, to be frank.

He also, I think, got Eacaraxe's meaning wrong. He didn't call people like him stupid. He said ignorant, and if Eac wants to correct me he absolutely can, but ignorant is the right word here. It's not a question of intelligence, it's a question of being ill-informed. As in, there will simply be far less information about these terrible policies under Biden than under Trump. Even being informed will be harder, and it's likely a lot of the people backing Biden just won't try to be informed, as they'll see Biden as a victory, a return to the golden days of Obama, who locked kids in cages at the border and drone striked with something like a 20% accuracy rate.
Oh, please. Calling one another "ignorant" because they have a disagreement is just as dismissive, and just as contemptuous. Nobody with an iota of sense is going to see the term "ignorant" in a forum and see it as a benign prompt that they may have missed some details.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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OK, who here has actually bashed progressives "for wanting progressive candidates"?

Myself and Agema have both stated support for approaches further to the "left" than Biden in various threads. Obviously I can't speak for Agema, but I argued in favour of Sanders getting the nomination.

This is a dispute about strategy. And it's being approached with some stunning hostility, to be frank.



Oh, please. Calling one another "ignorant" because they have a disagreement is just as dismissive, and just as contemptuous.
Whenever the subject of how the Democrats sabotage progressive candidates comes up, or the subject of how the candidates they put forth aren't in any way acceptable, there's a chorus of "you're just too picky! Purity tests! You just want a perfect candidate!", which is the exact argument Agema brought up.
 

Silvanus

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Whenever the subject of how the Democrats sabotage progressive candidates comes up, or the subject of how the candidates they put forth aren't in any way acceptable, there's a chorus of "you're just too picky! Purity tests! You just want a perfect candidate!", which is the exact argument Agema brought up.
No, there's argument when the specific approach of abstention/voting third party is floated. Which is perfectly right and to be expected; it's a forum topic. Expect argument.

Nobody is arguing against merely "wanting progressive candidates", and you know that. The dispute is over a specific action taken in response to this.
 

crimson5pheonix

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No, there's argument when the specific approach of abstention/voting third party is floated. Which is perfectly right and to be expected; it's a forum topic. Expect argument.

Nobody is arguing against merely "wanting progressive candidates", and you know that. The dispute is over a specific action taken in response to this.
Yeah, nobody is arguing it.

Until the subject comes up and then there's suddenly a mountain of caveats that make wanting progressive candidates and policies an exercise in futility and woe betide anyone who says that the crusty Republican the Democrats field is actually a Republican. And best not bring up how Democrats are complicit in Republican shenanigans.

Otherwise you'll get "well ackshully"d over dumb nonsense where the paternalistic "vote pragmatically against your interests" is lauded while pointing out that supporting the people complicit with everything you find objectionable so you can go back to ignoring it is no pragmatic solution at all is called "arrogant".

Or; I don't care about your nitpick, I'm not here to debate semantics with you. That's not my point, that's not Agema's point, that's not Eacaraxe's point, that's nobody's point.

EDIT: Or somebody is arguing it, there you go.
 
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Buyetyen

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Also, lol at the idea that I'm a moderate. Yeah, maybe by Sweden or Finland's standards. People on the internet make a lot of assumptions.
 

Tireseas

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OK, who here has actually bashed progressives "for wanting progressive candidates"?

Myself and Agema have both stated support for approaches further to the "left" than Biden in various threads. Obviously I can't speak for Agema, but I argued in favour of Sanders getting the nomination.

This is a dispute about strategy. And it's being approached with some stunning hostility, to be frank.
I'll cop to being hostile to progressive candidates, but not because of their progressive policies. More often than not, it's tied to a politics of division or personal purity at the expense of actual constructive results. For example, my biggest criticisms of Sanders (and to a lesser degree Warren) revolves around an approach to politics that remains focused on the other (in their case, "millionaires and billionaires") as an antagonist, which I tend to have a problem with because it's designed to divide rather than unite, and is little more than the same authoritarian populism with different framing.

And this kind of antagonism is a great way to make a name for yourself, as AOC and "the Squad" did, but it more often than not makes legislating harder, because it alienates potential allies and frames often complex situations into black and white issues where the necessary compromise to move the ball forward in the legislative process can't be met, usually by demanding a level of political risk to less aligned politicians where inaction becomes politically safer option. If your political "brand" revolves around being a pragmatic politician more interested in "delivering results" or just not being an ideologue, as many moderates in both parties try to be, then working with an outspoken bomb thrower on a policy that likely to go nowhere is extremely unappealing, especially if they're spending time claiming you're part of a conspiratorial "establishment" that you neither recognize and often is represented by a leadership bending over backwards to make sure you survive your next general election. You as a representative have little reason to work with the bomb-throwers as your voters aren't interested in those policy and may even punish you for engaging with them.

Indeed. you can actually see the politics of the Squad, while still relatively loud by House freshman standards, has become notably less antagonistic to the Democratic party and leadership over the last year and actually making more progress and internal influence as they framed themselves as a progressive flank and not an internal insurgency, which has helped them gain even more influence where it is most important as legislatures.

But the divisive absolutist approach has the singular problem of what to do once you have power, because they spent so much time burning bridges and alienating allies, that asking them to unite around a signature piece of legislation can consume the entire term as unaligned wings of the party must be placated to essentially be told that the populist leader won't leave them to die once they are no longer useful, which is where internal party loyalty becomes extremely important, as it can help smooth over the differences and make it easier for politicians representing alternative flanks to take the risk of supporting policies outside their comfort zone. The politics has actively made getting policy through harder, which means, at least for progressive politics, effectively handing conservatives and other standard-bearer's of the status quo a win through the inability to act.
 
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Silvanus

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Yeah, nobody is arguing it.

Until the subject comes up and then there's suddenly a mountain of caveats that make wanting progressive candidates and policies an exercise in futility and woe betide anyone who says that the crusty Republican the Democrats field is actually a Republican. And best not bring up how Democrats are complicit in Republican shenanigans.

Otherwise you'll get "well ackshully"d over dumb nonsense where the paternalistic "vote pragmatically against your interests" is lauded while pointing out that supporting the people complicit with everything you find objectionable so you can go back to ignoring it is no pragmatic solution at all is called "arrogant".
Oh, please. You're getting disagreed with on a forum, it's hardly a "woe betide".

And if you're discussing tone as the last sentence seems to imply-- about two posts ago you tried to explain that the insult "ignorant" directed specifically to another forum user was fine and dandy.
 
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Buyetyen

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I'll cop to being hostile to progressive candidates, but not because of their progressive policies. More often than not, it's tied to a politics of division or personal purity at the expense of actual constructive results. For example, my biggest criticisms of Sanders (and to a lesser degree Warren) revolves around an approach to politics that remains focused on the other (in their case, "millionaires and billionaires") as an antagonist, which I tend to have a problem with because it's designed to divide rather than unite, and is little more than the same authoritarian populism with different framing.
First you need to make the case that billionaires were even united with us or ever want to be. That level of wealth is incredibly isolating. Their peer-group couldn't populate most small towns and they never really interact with people in the bottom 99%. Those who were born into that level of privilege have exactly 0 frame of reference for what it's like hunting for a job while trying to make ends meet. Just look at all the tone deaf bullshit that Trump's brood of failure keep posting to social media. Or Elon Musk, who in spite of his attempt at public image management will never be a genius and is little more than a sci-fi nerd who takes for granted that his father owned an emerald mine in Apartheid South Africa. And all they do is hoard money. They acquire it and then sit on it. Money not being spent is money that is not flowing through the economy. The more capital concentrates at the top, the less able the market is to sustain itself. Wages are being depressed by inflation with only occasional stopgap measures to ameliorate it and every transaction we make, some of it goes right back into the oligarch's pockets, never again to see the light of day, or at least anywhere that isn't the Caiman Islands. That is clearly a problem, and that fact is not altered by the hurt feelings of a hedge fund manager.

Honestly, I don't see how you can solve this problem without hefty wealth redistribution.

Indeed. you can actually see the politics of the Squad, while still relatively loud by House freshman standards, has become notably less antagonistic to the Democratic party and leadership over the last year and actually making more progress and internal influence as they framed themselves as a progressive flank and not an internal insurgency, which has helped them gain even more influence where it is most important as legislatures.
Probably because they're actually doing their jobs. Contrast AOC as a political bomb thrower with Gym Jordan who has made a name for himself in Congress as a professional rapist defender, media whore and man who is deathly allergic to jackets. You can be a bombthrower and get shit done. You just have to remember it's not about you.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Oh, please. You're getting disagreed with on a forum, it's hardly a "woe betide".
Possibly dramatic language, but that doesn't change the normal response to "not voting for Biden" to be insults, insinuations of character, and just downright nastiness.

One of the people at the center of this discussion is on my ignore list for telling me I'm arrogant and self centered because I won't vote for Biden. Neither me nor Eacaraxe started this nonsense.

And if you're discussing tone as the last sentence seems to imply-- about two posts ago you tried to explain that the insult "ignorant" directed specifically to another forum user was fine and dandy.
Because it was an accurate description. Not stupid, ignorant. As in unaware, intentionally or otherwise. I think it's absolutely fair to say someone is unaware if they think Trump is unique in any way apart from being bad about hiding from scrutiny.
 

Silvanus

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I'll cop to being hostile to progressive candidates, but not because of their progressive policies. More often than not, it's tied to a politics of division or personal purity at the expense of actual constructive results. For example, my biggest criticisms of Sanders (and to a lesser degree Warren) revolves around an approach to politics that remains focused on the other (in their case, "millionaires and billionaires") as an antagonist, which I tend to have a problem with because it's designed to divide rather than unite, and is little more than the same authoritarian populism with different framing.
The shady business practices, cronyism, and entrenched money involved in making 9 out of 10 "millionaires and billionaires" should outrage people. It's an outrage they go on at all. Staying quiet would be tacit acceptance.

And I don't really know how you talk about these topics without making them the antagonist, honestly. If you lay out the facts, purely and simply, they're going to come out of it looking like antagonists.

And this kind of antagonism is a great way to make a name for yourself, as AOC and "the Squad" did, but it more often than not makes legislating harder, because it alienates potential allies and frames often complex situations into black and white issues where the necessary compromise to move the ball forward in the legislative process can't be met, usually by demanding a level of political risk to less aligned politicians where inaction becomes politically safer option. If your political "brand" revolves around being a pragmatic politician more interested in "delivering results" or just not being an ideologue, as many moderates in both parties try to be, then working with an outspoken bomb thrower on a policy that likely to go nowhere is extremely unappealing, especially if they're spending time claiming you're part of a conspiratorial "establishment" that you neither recognize and often is represented by a leadership bending over backwards to make sure you survive your next general election. You as a representative have little reason to work with the bomb-throwers as your voters aren't interested in those policy and may even punish you for engaging with them.
Bernie Sanders and his delegates have been afforded a larger role than ever before in shaping the platform of the Presidential candidate. And he earned that through a campaign that successfully motivated a large swathe of people by talking frankly about injustice and inequality, including internal criticisms of the Democratic party, did he not?

Of course, he turned his fire outwards towards the Republican Party once the Primaries were over.
 

Buyetyen

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Bernie Sanders and his delegates have been afforded a larger role than ever before in shaping the platform of the Presidential candidate. And he earned that through a campaign that successfully motivated a large swathe of people by talking frankly about injustice and inequality, including internal criticisms of the Democratic party, did he not?

Of course, he turned his fire outwards towards the Republican Party once the Primaries were over.
It's enough to give you the impression that people react positively to moral clarity.
 

Silvanus

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Possibly dramatic language, but that doesn't change the normal response to "not voting for Biden" to be insults, insinuations of character, and just downright nastiness.
There's been some damn nasty personal stuff thrown at me for taking a different view to yours-- some of it from you yourself.

Do not paint this as a one-sided dogpile.

Because it was an accurate description. Not stupid, ignorant. As in unaware, intentionally or otherwise.
That is a stunningly charitable interpretation.
 

crimson5pheonix

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There's been some damn nasty personal stuff thrown at me for taking a different view to yours-- some of it from you yourself.

Do not paint this as a one-sided dogpile.
I'm not, but I'm also not going to be moralized at by people in the mud pit.

That is a stunningly charitable interpretation.
If Eac comes in and tells me I'm wrong, I'll take it back, but that is absolutely how I see it because it aligns basically with what several of us have been saying. There is an element that a lot of the government abuses have come to light not because of outrage over the acts themselves, but because it's Trump doing it, and once he's out of office there won't be any furor over these abuses continuing. Partly because that's what's already happened before.
 

Tireseas

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The shady business practices, cronyism, and entrenched money involved in making 9 out of 10 "millionaires and billionaires" should outrage people. It's an outrage they go on at all. Staying quiet would be tacit acceptance.

And I don't really know how you talk about these topics without making them the antagonist, honestly. If you lay out the facts, purely and simply, they're going to come out of it looking like antagonists.
"Shared sacrifice," "duty to community," and similar talking points all point out that there's entire class that, for the most part, aren't pulling their enormous weight without making them out to be bond villains or, often antisemitc tropes. It would also serve progressives well as, for the most part, there's a lot of policies that stretch deep into the middle class, notably tax rates, that are going to be needed to actually push real substantive progressive programs for funding purposes. I personally think they should have just let the Bush tax cuts expire for everybody, not just the rich because the GOP's tax-rate shenanigans have essentially allowed a upper middle professional class (of which I would count my own family) to escape a fair cost of the society that created them.
Bernie Sanders and his delegates have been afforded a larger role than ever before in shaping the platform of the Presidential candidate. And he earned that through a campaign that successfully motivated a large swathe of people by talking frankly about injustice and inequality, including internal criticisms of the Democratic party, did he not?
He did, but, as this thread is demonstrating, there's still a large number who so believed his "fight them all" rhetoric so deeply that they can't see straight. Biden knows he likely can't win without bringing these voters into the party, but they're still only a vocal minority. Every time I hear someone say "Biden is as bad as Trump" I get more fucking nervous because I'm one of the people for whom survival during another four years of Trump isn't a given.
Of course, he turned his fire outwards towards the Republican Party once the Primaries were over.
He did this time. 2016... not so much, or at least not enough that a sizable number of his self-proclaimed supporters were vocally not voting or actively voting for Trump (with the massive caveat that a not small portion of this was also a Russian disinformation campaign). Sanders and the moderates both seem to have learned their lessons from 2016 that you cannot take the General Election for granted even against someone as repulsive as Trump.
 

Buyetyen

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"Shared sacrifice," "duty to community," and similar talking points all point out that there's entire class that, for the most part, aren't pulling their enormous weight without making them out to be bond villains or, often antisemitc tropes.
Teddy Roosevelt didn't bust trusts, pass food safety laws and generally piss off the rest of his patrician peers by appealing to the better angels of the nature of robber barons. You cannot compromise with someone who has every incentive to screw you over. And I know you know that there are limits. Trying to persuade, say, Martin Shkrelli to do his part is an exercise in absurdity and I assume you're too smart to try. Or the still-living Koch brother whose name I can't be fucked to remember. Or any given coal or oil baron. Hedge fund managers have evolved into a very successful parasitic niche in the system and they will not be dislodged easily.

In other words, these people are motherfuckers. They're going to fuck mothers, it's right there in the name.
 

Seanchaidh

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Every time I hear someone say "Biden is as bad as Trump" I get more fucking nervous because I'm one of the people for whom survival during another four years of Trump isn't a given.
Maybe worry more about the fact that 30 million households are subject to eviction and none of those people will have a mailing address through which to vote by mail during a pandemic.
 

Tireseas

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Teddy Roosevelt didn't bust trusts, pass food safety laws and generally piss off the rest of his patrician peers by appealing to the better angels of the nature of robber barons. You cannot compromise with someone who has every incentive to screw you over. And I know you know that there are limits. Trying to persuade, say, Martin Shkrelli to do his part is an exercise in absurdity and I assume you're too smart to try. Or the still-living Koch brother whose name I can't be fucked to remember. Or any given coal or oil baron. Hedge fund managers have evolved into a very successful parasitic niche in the system and they will not be dislodged easily.

In other words, these people are motherfuckers. They're going to fuck mothers, it's right there in the name.
I'm not saying you have to appeal to the barons or the oligarchs. I saying you don't have to co-op authoritarian strategy when appealing to the masses. The vote matters and the masses outnumber the rich and the wealthy by a large margin. That's what broke Obama through when he first stood on the convention stage in 2004 and got him the nomination and presidency in 2008. That's what Biden is doing now, at least within the party.

"Other"ing the problems, many of which are exacerbated by but by no means caused by wealth inequality, and simplifying the situation down to crude talking points only serves to embrace the kind of authoritarianism and blunt policy that exacerbates the issues rather than solving them. It dumbs down the electorate by not trusting them with the nuance that many of the biggest problems of our lives (Global Warming, Racial Disparities, Housing, Internet regulation, global trade, the Rise of China as an expansionist Han Surpemest Ethnostate, rising Authoritarianism, failing democracies, etc.) are going to need to actually address those issues. Authoritarian language and approaches to politics only serve to further legitimize authoritarian politics, and this is a time we need to take a stand against that more than ever.

Democracy as an institution is crumbling because every party and movement that used to ascribe to it has abandoned its principles. First it was the conservatives, then the whole GOP. Now the rot has spread to the progressive movement, the movement that most needs democracy to survive in order to be able to implement its policy priorities because that is the only way to insure they last. Populist authoritarianism infects everything that fails to resist its temptations because it removes the doubt and trepidation that comes with complex policy solutions to address foundational problems, instead reaching for simple solutions or, more often, slogans, to fill the vacuum left by indecisiveness worry. A policy dialog about dealing with immigration policy, the southern border, and the economic necessity of immigration in the US is replaced with "build that wall." A conversation about federal debt, national priorities, and the role of the government in the economy is replaced with "small government" and "read my lips." A nuanced discussion about expanding healthcare to the remaining millions uninsured while trying to not panic people about disruptions in coverage is replaced with a contest of who can scream "medicare for all" the loudest.

FOSTA/SESTA is what happens when you start down this path, a poorly-worded law that no one who tackles those issues on a day-to-day basis would have recommended. Progressive die hards Sanders and Warren voted for it. Senator Ron Wyden, arguably the most thoughtful senator when it comes to the ramifications of internet policy, particularly in the technology sphere, was one of two votes against it (the other being Senator Paul, who will vote against anything he interprets as limiting freedom[tm]). A bill to help victims of trafficking puts more people at risk because "it sounds good" and no one talked to people in the know about the actual balance of interests because no one except two senators wanted to be against a law that said it was fighting child trafficking.

Brexit is what happens when you start down this path: foolish act of self harm because one party played footsie with a reactionary set of immigrant and race-baiting backbenchers to steal votes away from Labour's working class base after they had been fed a diet of tabloid trash that made the EU and immigrants the woes of the British public instead of a serious examination of the pros and cons of one of the most important decisions the country had ever made.

Trump is what happens when a party abandons its pretense for caring about democracy and feeds its base a constant diet of slogans, simple (and often non-responsive) policy prescriptions, and race-baiting media figures for more than two decades.

I'm worried about a similar vein coming down the pipe out of the progressive movement, touting an isolationist foreign policy, a grossly oversimplified view of economics, and no respect for constitutional law, democratic norms, or basic rule of law. What we do and say today shapes the likelihood of that future, and I get very very very antsy when people start accepting those tactics, especially in the political sphere, because it's one more slide to a future where we are a democracy in name only.