Are most mainstream games not very good? or we are all hipsters?

Hawki

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You wouldn't call one of the most well recognized, memefied FPS franchises mainstream?
To be honest? Not really.

There's no specific definition of mainstream, but I'll highlight the difference. CoD is mainstream, in that it has an annual release, a wide audience, dozens of entries, and if you ask someone on the street, there's a chance they might have at least heard of it. Half-Life however? Well, here's some of the facts:

-The series hasn't a had a proper release since 2004. Yes, we can include Alyx, but Alyx is the definition of niche, in that it's PC exclusive, and requires expensive headwear to play. As you touch on, the series is arguably better known for memes at this point.

-Half-Life has a very passionate fanbase, but it's always struck me as a niche one. I can't cite any hard figures for this, but for instance, Metroid has a very passionate fanbase as well, but it's a pretty niche IP, in as much that it doesn't bring in many sales.

-I'd be willing to bet that if I talked to people on the street, chances are they'd have heard of Call of Duty. If I say "Master Chief," they might recognise "oh hey, that guy from Halo." In contrast, if I say "Half-Life" or "Gordon Freeman," I'd be certain to get blank stares, or mentions of radioactive decay.

Thing is, I know Half-Life is pretty influential in the history of the medium, but it strikes me as having a bigger legacy by its, well, legacy, rather than the franchise itself, if that makes sense. For instance, MMOs have influential titles in the form of Ultima Online and EverQuest, but it's WoW that became the mainstream one.
 

CriticalGaming

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Who actually thinks the Top 40 is the best music?
teenage girls mostly lol.

You really can't separate personal tastes from critiquing media unless you just wanna talk about technical merits.
You can though. Like how I fucking hate Breath of the Wild, but can understand how people like it and think it's good. I hate the game and think it's terrible, but I can see and understand other viewpoints and would never stick BotW on a worst games of all time list or anything like that. There is a difference between talking about something negatively because it has issues you don't like, and objectively dismissing it as a bad game.

That is what B-Cell is doing in this thread. He is simply dismissing everything on that list as a bad game when that simply isn't the case.

Sure it's bad for him, okay whatever, but B-Cell doesn't like most things considering his interests are so narrow, so you have to take it all with an eyerolling grain of salt. The same way i do for several people on this forum who rant about how they hate everything new that comes out because......fucking i dunno.

When has the most popular movie ever won Best Picture?
Good doesn't equal best. So it's not a valid argument to make. Fortnite wont win GOTY, does that make it bad? No. It's popular the same way McDonald's is popular, it's fucking shit for you but it serves as a quick and cheap meal for when you need it. These games serve a purpose.


Actually Candy Crush makes more now than it ever has.
Speaking of purpose, this serves the purpose for people on the crapper. And if they want to throw money at it fine.
 

Iron

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They got too big for their own good. Few studios managed to keep it together and most got bought out. That's when the fun begins - higher-ups ask you to change your games, make them appeal to a larger audience. Otherwise the game won't sell as much...
 

Agema

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-Half-Life has a very passionate fanbase, but it's always struck me as a niche one. I can't cite any hard figures for this, but for instance, Metroid has a very passionate fanbase as well, but it's a pretty niche IP, in as much that it doesn't bring in many sales.

-I'd be willing to bet that if I talked to people on the street, chances are they'd have heard of Call of Duty. If I say "Master Chief," they might recognise "oh hey, that guy from Halo." In contrast, if I say "Half-Life" or "Gordon Freeman," I'd be certain to get blank stares, or mentions of radioactive decay.

Thing is, I know Half-Life is pretty influential in the history of the medium, but it strikes me as having a bigger legacy by its, well, legacy, rather than the franchise itself, if that makes sense. For instance, MMOs have influential titles in the form of Ultima Online and EverQuest, but it's WoW that became the mainstream one.
So in other words, Half-Life is The Pixies of computer gaming.
 

Trunkage

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Yes. Yes, we are all hipsters. Dirty hipsters. Not to be confused with @Dirty Hipsters, who is simply another dirty hipster, and not a manifestation of our collective ids taking the shape of a dirty hipster ... or is he?
Did we just make some Escapist canon? To go with the Saentar - the unstoppable force (Zontar) meeting the impenetrable wall (Saelune)?

I don't care what you guys say, Dirty Hipsters’ our totem now
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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Yes. Yes, we are all hipsters. Dirty hipsters. Not to be confused with @Dirty Hipsters, who is simply another dirty hipster, and not a manifestation of our collective ids taking the shape of a dirty hipster ... or is he?
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Oh god damn it, it's a B-Cell thread. You brought me here for this shit?

Fine Fine.

B-Cell isn't a hipster. His tastes are as mainstream as they can possibly get...for 1998. Being stuck in the past isn't what makes someone a hipster, it's purposefully trying to be outside of the mainstream. B-Cell just lives somewhere that hasn't culturally caught up to the rest of the world. I'm sure disco is still big wherever he's from.

I also take offense with the title because it assumes that we agree with B-Cell, and I have yet to ever see a thread where people actually agreed with him. At least half of the games on that list are awesome.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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You can't say anything is objectively bad or good. You really can't separate personal tastes from critiquing media unless you just wanna talk about technical merits.

Actually Candy Crush makes more now than it ever has.

When has the most popular movie ever won Best Picture?

Who actually thinks the Top 40 is the best music?
You're conflating "best" with "good."

Something doesn't have to be the best in order to be good.
 

Phoenixmgs

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You can though. Like how I fucking hate Breath of the Wild, but can understand how people like it and think it's good. I hate the game and think it's terrible, but I can see and understand other viewpoints and would never stick BotW on a worst games of all time list or anything like that. There is a difference between talking about something negatively because it has issues you don't like, and objectively dismissing it as a bad game.

That is what B-Cell is doing in this thread. He is simply dismissing everything on that list as a bad game when that simply isn't the case.
You can't separate personal opinion from critiquing a game (or anything). Why does anyone like a game? Because the gameplay is good, the story/writing/characters are good, the aesthetics are good, simply it's fun, etc. How can any of those things be objectively good or bad? You hating BOTW and saying it's a shit game is as valid as someone loving it and saying it's the GOAT. Just because one side outnumbers another side doesn't make that side objectively "right" because all the reasons a game is liked or disliked is subjective in nature. Using your logic about understanding other people's viewpoints (which is perfectly fine, even great, as that's in short supply these days...) also makes BOTW objectively not a good game too because people that love the game can understand how one can hate the game so how can they say it's objectively a good game (as you say you can't say it's objectively a bad game). If I like something, it's good; if I don't like something, it's bad. That's simply all that matters.

Good doesn't equal best. So it's not a valid argument to make. Fortnite wont win GOTY, does that make it bad? No. It's popular the same way McDonald's is popular, it's fucking shit for you but it serves as a quick and cheap meal for when you need it. These games serve a purpose.
You're conflating "best" with "good."

Something doesn't have to be the best in order to be good.
I was just taking the logic to the extreme. If popularity/success makes something good, then the most popularity/success makes something the best as it's the most good, right? Basically, the logic doesn't pan out.

There's several examples of popular things that most people will say isn't good like say the Transformers movies or Twilight movies/books. Rap is currently the most successful genre of music, but if you asked 1,000 random people if such and such #1 song or artist are good, do you think you'd get at least half the people to say it's good?
 
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Hawki

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Rap is currently the most successful genre of music, but if you asked 1,000 random people if such and such #1 song or artist are good, do you think you'd get at least have the people to say it's good?
I know this is off-topic, but that's a new one to me. I always got the sense that rap was fairly fringe.
 

Mister Mumbler

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I know this is off-topic, but that's a new one to me. I always got the sense that rap was fairly fringe.
I might be wrong, but it may be less rap and more hip-hop in general that they are talking about.
 

Hawki

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I might be wrong, but it may be less rap and more hip-hop in general that they are talking about.
But isn't hip hop fringe as well?

Yeah, I'm really not a music guy. I mean, I studied music to the end of secondary school, but that was almost exclusively classical. Ask me about games and game developers? Sure. Ask me about modern music genres and whatnot? Blank slate.
 

Mister Mumbler

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But isn't hip hop fringe as well?

Yeah, I'm really not a music guy. I mean, I studied music to the end of secondary school, but that was almost exclusively classical. Ask me about games and game developers? Sure. Ask me about modern music genres and whatnot? Blank slate.
Yeah, I'm not too certain (I tend not to listen to the radio these days) is that the top music hits these days have kinda all melted into a slurry of hip-hop, R&B, and soft rock, but then again that might just be my upbringing as one of those "the only real music is classic rock" twerps.
 

Drathnoxis

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One of the problems with the Escapist community is how it tends to dog pile on certain individuals who are less than conventional. I don't think the way people treat B-Cell is warranted, because he always seems to be polite from what I've seen.

B-Cell has his particular interests and he has every right to make a thread to discuss them. It doesn't hurt me to pass over threads I'm not interested in, not sure why it's so difficult for others. Personally, I'm glad that B-Cell is a member of this community and continues making threads, despite the lack of respect many people show towards him. This thread is fine and has sparked some good discussion, so good job B-Cell!
 
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bluegate

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Plenty of mainstream games are good.

Stop trying to be a hipster, or in B-Cell's case, a borderline fps troll.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Yes, but substantial quantities of rap isn't so much music as poetry recital with a bit of extra noise in the background.
I don't consider most popular music to be "music", the vast majority of it doesn't involve actual singing or playing instruments.
 

MrCalavera

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To be honest? Not really.

There's no specific definition of mainstream, but I'll highlight the difference. CoD is mainstream, in that it has an annual release, a wide audience, dozens of entries, and if you ask someone on the street, there's a chance they might have at least heard of it. Half-Life however? Well, here's some of the facts:
I feel like setting the bar at CoD is a bit too restrictive. It's like putting any other platforming game next to Mario.
Wasn't really thinking about broad general populace either, when it comes to mainstream gaiming audience. Among people actualy interested in video games, many have at least heard about Half-Life, even if they didn't personally play it.

-The series hasn't a had a proper release since 2004. Yes, we can include Alyx, but Alyx is the definition of niche, in that it's PC exclusive, and requires expensive headwear to play. As you touch on, the series is arguably better known for memes at this point.
2007*. That's when Episode 2 premiered, which marked the end of Half-Life release cycle until Alyx. Although, one could count Black Mesa and (sadly)Hunt Down the Freeman as HL releases, since they've been more or less adopted by Valve as canon.
Anyway, lots have changed since 2004. VR is the hot shit currently(again). Even if it's still too expensive/exotic to take hold, among VR games, Alyx is the opposite of niche. It's probably the best selling VR game, next to Beat Saber.
Plus, there's streaming - watching Twitch have become just another way of consuming this media, despite not being interactive(in traditional sense).
And being known through memes, is still being known. Half-Life might've not got a proper release for 13 years, but i've seen people making the same "HL3 confirmed" jokes throughout them.

-Half-Life has a very passionate fanbase, but it's always struck me as a niche one. I can't cite any hard figures for this, but for instance, Metroid has a very passionate fanbase as well, but it's a pretty niche IP, in as much that it doesn't bring in many sales.
Hey, i thought we were discussing facts here? :p
Joking aside, i also consider Metroid a mainstream game. Samus might not be as recognizable gaming figure as Lara Croft(though, is she still?), atleast in the west, but her games gave name to a whole subgenre of platformers, that have now re-emerged in mainstream consciousness.

-I'd be willing to bet that if I talked to people on the street, chances are they'd have heard of Call of Duty. If I say "Master Chief," they might recognise "oh hey, that guy from Halo." In contrast, if I say "Half-Life" or "Gordon Freeman," I'd be certain to get blank stares, or mentions of radioactive decay.
Yes, if you'd ask a random grandma, she might have heard about this "cowadoody" thing their grandkids talk about. By the same token, she'd have no idea what Fall Guys is, despite being very popular right now. I don't really consider a random street person as a good representation of mainstream gaming audience.
And "John Halo" is about as recognizable as "that guy with the glasses and crowbar" to people that played neither of these games.

Thing is, I know Half-Life is pretty influential in the history of the medium, but it strikes me as having a bigger legacy by its, well, legacy, rather than the franchise itself, if that makes sense. For instance, MMOs have influential titles in the form of Ultima Online and EverQuest, but it's WoW that became the mainstream one.
You know what else is mainstream? Steam. I'd bet most users of that platform would hear about this thing called Half-Life, for obvious reasons.
 

MrCalavera

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Also, on a different note, but in the same song:
But isn't hip hop fringe as well?
Dude. Rap and Hip-Hop culture have been well in the mainstream for atleast the last decade or two.
Right now widely understood rap is likely THE most popular among popular music genres. Check Billboard's top ten.

EDIT: For some reason couldn't edit my previous post.
 
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